Future of Schoolboy Football

It's always seemed to me, that if we were serious about a "pathway" from juniors to senior and professional football we need a strong well run grass roots club programme.  A centralised approach which picks kids out from other teams like the federations do can't replicate what a club can do.  School boy football has always seemed an odd fit for me in there when kids leave the club game and schools take over, I don't really understand why that is.

Some schools are well resourced, and no doubt do a good job with the kids who attend.  But by leaving development from ages 13-18 up to schools we're in danger of a load of talented kids who go to schools without good football programmes falling through the cracks.

Additionally, players who are good enough to play senior club football at age 16/17 are stuck playing first XI which isn't great for their development I would have thought.

All things being equal, well run clubs should always be able to at least replicate, and in many cases improve on, school football.  However, good schools could always enter into club saturday leagues (although I can forsee conflicts there).

Should we do away with Saturday high school football altogether and leave the clubs to run the game?

Agree. College football is a waste of time. If you are zoned into a school that doesn't have a good coach/team then you are boned.

Capital football ran a survey a few months ago as part of a review into college football. Not sure what stage that is at.

I think players need to be free to make a choice.

The main issues I see are pressure being put on the best players by their school to play for them, a lack of options for players who want to play club football instead, and the fact that if you do away with school football altogether there are going to be a lot of teenagers who drop out of the game altogether because they lose the convenience of school football and the opportunity it gives to represent your school.

I went to Wellington High which was obviously not a footballing powerhouse, but we've always had a few good players who are certainly held back in their development by playing on our shit pitch under some mediocre coaches alongside lesser players (e.g. me).

While the best 1 or 2 have tended to be involved in academy and club football either partially or entirely at the expense of playing for the school, most have struggled to get the opportunity to play at a better level alongside better players, at least until under 19s rolls around, providing their able to make that step up technically and physically.

The last couple of years have seen a sight improvement with the under 17 Sunday league as this at least has seen the best players from High play alongside other decent players from Coll, Rongotai etc. for Island Bay. Obviously the problem here is its not a strong enough league for the standard of a couple of the teams and so for the most part they win at a canter. It's social football. However, I think making an alternative like this a more enticing option for the top players to give them higher quality games and training over the course of the winter season would definitely make up for some of school football's deficits.

I think that there is room for both, but unfortunately (in Auckland at least) the schools are quite selfish and place pressure on lads to play over club. Boys often have to choose one of the other.

In the UK (when I was a lad) if you were offered a rep place, or club contract then the school would celebrate the achievement and happily (in the case of signing club terms) take the boy out of the school squad in order to realise the terms of any club contract.

The (Auckland) girls play their school games on a Wednesday evening, and surely the lads could do something similar, freeing up time at weekends for club football.

Ultimately some of the clubs in NZ offer a real pathway and there are some excellent coaching resources at this level - more so than school.

Perhaps NZ Football should take an interest in the whole of the game and drive something - likely????

I had also heard that the boy that got suspended at that ACFC U17 tournament for however long it was has been playing for the school all winter even though he is banned at club level. I kinda think that is a bit farcical and I guess it really does illustrate as an example of how far out of alignment, the school and federation system is.

Personally, I think if schools want to run a 1st XI, then fine, but nothing else. The 1st XI is tournament and interschool challenges only, not regular Saturday football whereby they play for club.

I should probably add on the flip side of this, there are some schools that offer good coaching. I think Milicich is at St Peters? (not sure thats the right school) but then if those kids are in club level and you only have the 1st XI as I mentioned above, then you still could have the same whereby the likes of Milicich and co can do a school team (and its less drag on their time) as well as club.

Playing for your schools is not compulsory is it? When I was at Hutt High no serious footballer played for the school on a regular basis, the odd national comp or filling in for a mates team at most. There were a lot of talented footballers playing for their clubs.

the problem with allowing both to run and kids to choose it you end up diluting the talent in both and both competitions end up as a bit of a joke. Probably a bit different in Auckland with a larger population. 

Couldn't you have both school and club teams in the same competition? I know juniors at High played together for Island Bay teams where there weren't enough to make up a team.

Some of the Auckland Schools make it very difficult for lads to duck out - pressure, sanctions etc

great topic - I look forward to some interesting debates about this - personally very interested in the Auckland schools vs clubs scenario, but also keen to hear how it works (or dosn't) in Wellington as well.

Although I'd suggest that if there wasn't school football, these coaches will just go to a club instead.

and relevant to that, I reckon have two sets of football can often thin out the few decent coaches around.

I was involved with FTC in a coaching capacity a couple of years ago and I was shocked to see how many really talented kids were having to juggle their school XI, their rep team and sometimes other sports. I don't think it's healthy and I don't think it's good for their development, personally.

Sure, it's nice to see that so many kiwi kids can play a bit of football, rugby and bowl a decent cricket ball. But the harsh reality is that if you want to foster world-class players, you need to be exclusive in the way you work, study, eat, learn, train...and you need to do that from a very young age!

I was also involved with a senior club which relied heavily on youngsters (still in high school) for their first XI. As mentioned above, what use is it to play with other 17 year old kids when you have the chance to play 90' and learn from better, more experienced players?

Maybe we should, but what do you do when the schools just say no?

I don't think it is. I think (respectfully) Oska that you're full of shit.

How many players do you really know who STARTED playing football at high school? Approximately zero I'd guess.

Because they're social players, school football is more convenient, so they play there, and they have fun with their friends. But that doesn't mean that the reason they play is because of school football. It's just that, given a choice, they choose the easiest option. And for social players, it is heaps more convenient to play football at school.

There'll certainly be some players who are inconvenienced to a degree that they'd quit. But I don't buy the "heaps" of players would quit line. I bet most of them were happily playing social club football before high school happened. And most likely would have continued to do so.

This is, by the way, an academic debate because schools are very influential in kids' lives and they (the schools) want to offer sports. They don't want to get out of football, so they won't.

There is also the whole secondary school sports infrastructure who have a vested interest...it's their livelihoods we're talking about. They don't want it to end either.

And they have loads of stats about fat kids and sedentary teenagers and the influence of schools etc to back up their own necessity.

So, enjoy the discussion but don't expect anything to change.

Expect change in Chch 2015

Well overdue and warmly welcomed by the club I am at.

I'll be bloody impressed if it happens and works.

Here's  hoping.

It's working on the Girls side so hopefully the same/similar  holds true with the Boys.

Most of the Hutt, Kapiti and Porirua colleges all did this when i was at college level. I opted for club right up until the Junior grades finished (Wests - they always encouraged players to stay away from school sides). Our team was full of mostly HIBS and Kapiti college lads, with a couple from Aotea, Mana, Tawa and even Wellington Coll. Most played for their school sides (that had teams) mid week too

Obviously what I'm talking about is fairly separate from the thread's general theme of how to best develop players so I'll leave it there. I just think it is worth bearing in mind that most football is played for playing football's sake and as an alternative to other pastimes and exercise, not as training for a professional career or to represent the country.

But yeah, im not really a fan of the college stuff. But like whats been said, some schools are very good and have great coaches, while others are shit. If youre local club turns to shit as a junior or senior player, you can always go somewhere else. If your school sides turn to shit, you cant exactly move schools. Well you can, but thats somewhat unreasonable.

It'll be those great footballing schools who will oppose any such move to abolish the college system and let clubs take hold of things though. History, pride... etc will be gone.

Don't know if it still applies in Auckland but the problem used to be that at a younger age the school played their games at say 9am on a Sat. morning and the club played at 1pm. Problem was that as the players got older their school games were played later. I had most of my club players playing at 11am and they then had to rush to the club game at 1pm. This was physically hard on them and some had heaps of pressure put on them to flag the club.

All this would have been solved if the schools played their games mid-week. I spoke to Johnny Morris about this when he was headmaster at Auckland Grammar  and his reply was that it will never happen. I even had a couple of outstanding players who never told anyone at school that they played club football as they knew what would happen.

Playing organised sport? Not unless you have a scholarship.

Just a few comments for the hell of it

When I was in Wellington, I met with several of the bigger college headmasters and got an agreement that on a Saturday, the kids who were playing at a higher level that the college football, would be released to the Clubs and were not obligated to play for the school.   This would not apply if the college was playing a "traditional" fixture.

It seemed to work fairly well as we saw kids from Wellington, Newlands, Tawa Colleges (to name a few) playing in the Central League and Capital Premier.

Also, at a lower level, College teams played in the youth leagues and that seemed to work OK.   Wellington College First X1 was at one stage the Miramar Reserve team (mostly because Miramar was not able, or couldn't, field a team of their own players)

I don't know what arrangements with the colleges are in place now.

I also believe that the girls playing on a Wednesday evening is a total insult to their football - most of the games finish in darkness, if they are able to.

We have the same problems here in Hawkes Bay.   

In the olden days, and I can speak with authority, college finished at 2pm on Wednesdays and that is when we played out college games.   We were then free to play for our Clubs on the Saturday.

Everything was in black and white then aye?

That Wellington College thing has been a niggle for years. They think they have rights to be in any league they want to be in. Even threatened to sue Capital Football a couple of years back when it was suggested that they might be punted out of club leagues because they didn't allow anyone to join. My old school really does make me cringe sometimes.

Smithy

Roger Moses, the boss at Wellington College, was the catalyst in this.   I knew him when he was Deputy Head at Waihi College so we did have a bit of a relationship to start.

They did want to become a Club when I was there, but it was turned down by Steve and I as they wouldn't allow transfers, etc.

We got on well with Wellington College - I guess it is like most things in life - personalities and relationships

most Girls footy on Wed is played on lit turf (or is all done by around 5pm)

Sorry Feverish, I was living in the past as far as Wellington is concerned - I can assure you that it used to be different.

A lack of turfs up here in HB supports my statement - I have seen games finished early because of the weather (getting dark early)

That's a fair point regarding the real politik of the situation.

If we all agree that it'as not the best structure for the game though, it's still worth discussing what is the "best" structure isn't it?

Obviously we're not going to do away with school boy football, but if you moved it midweek then that would make Saturday club football the priority.  I suppose you could still have school teams in the relevant grades so long as you gave students free (properly free) choice who to play for.

Wasn't that Ben Mata? Now playing for Wanderers FC in ASB Yoof.

Moses Dyer - also now playing for Wanderers, but in the main team.

was suspended for contact with a referee - and deserved it in my opinion.

Right. Cheers.

I flitted around a bunch of different winter sports in my youth and I didn't start playing football until sixth form, and incidentally it was for Wellington High. I really don't know if I would have taken up playing or not at a later date if I hadn't had the option, but I certainly wouldn't have tried going and playing for a club at that point, and my playing experience would be a year or two less rich and enjoyable.

Kids playing for school or at least the one i've been involved with don't pay any subs plus full kit including track suits, warm up kit and after match tops all supplied no charge.

Compare that to what a family has to fund with juat a couple of kids playing at a club.