TS that'd be the correct answer if I'd asked *ideally* how many even div 1s. We seem to consistently lack even div 1 comps. there shouldn't be blow outs of 8+
Mainland Juniors (please play nice)
12th - 16th = 5 he typed pedantically.
Dual Age has been aired before. Would have to be with full compliance of all clubs.
We can't get 8 team even comps because we don't have 8 clubs that can realistically field a D1 side per grade.This will only get worse as players continue to migrate from 'little' clubs to perceived 'bigger/better' clubs.
Even a 6 team comp would require uniformity of selection criteria and even lead to 'zonal' as opposed to club selection! It don't appear to be a hit in Nelson eh....
I think realistically that each junior grade would have maybe 40 kids of Rep level? I am ballparking it, so dont shred me up too badly please. Now for instance, one team has 15 (!) because of either parents being chatted up, or FTC kids saying come on over etc, or coaches reputation blah blah, that means the other teams get left with not very many between themselves. Now, players migrating from a team where they are the big fish because it will obviously benefit them longer term is not really an issue, and it will always happen. Its the deliberate recruitment of players to create a super team in time for the Nike Cup that bothers me. Its great for the kids WHEN ITS TIME FOR THAT TOURNAMENT, because they will be in a position to possibly advance in that competition. Its making a bit of a farce out of the league balance though, just as much as the mass "playing up" of a team is. One could probably argue that one may even be a by product of the other, especially when you consider which teams, grades and clubs are doing this. The very worst thing would be if the team of 15 top level players opted to play up a grade, thus removing that level of competition from the other top level boys completely, thereby disadvantaging them further, and creating even greater disparity in those that go up, against those that play by the rules/guidelines. It will be a win win for Cash/Tech, but a pretty serious kick in the guts for all the rest, not to mention their own 14th team, which itself would struggle to compete given that 6 of their best have been sent up to 15th grade. A mess of their own making, but a mess nonetheless. I would suggest that Mr Simpson probably doesn't give a financially incentivised damn about any of that though, given that it isn't him doing the work in the lead up. He will simply say thank you ever so much at the end of 2015, and take that team to the Nike.Righto. Smash my post to pieces now...
I think realistically that each junior grade would have maybe 40 kids of Rep level? I am ballparking it, so dont shred me up too badly please. Now for instance, one team has 15 (!) because of either parents being chatted up, or FTC kids saying come on over etc, or coaches reputation blah blah, that means the other teams get left with not very many between themselves.
Now, players migrating from a team where they are the big fish because it will obviously benefit them longer term is not really an issue, and it will always happen. Its the deliberate recruitment of players to create a super team in time for the Nike Cup that bothers me. Its great for the kids WHEN ITS TIME FOR THAT TOURNAMENT, because they will be in a position to possibly advance in that competition. Its making a bit of a farce out of the league balance though, just as much as the mass "playing up" of a team is.
One could probably argue that one may even be a by product of the other, especially when you consider which teams, grades and clubs are doing this. The very worst thing would be if the team of 15 top level players opted to play up a grade, thus removing that level of competition from the other top level boys completely, thereby disadvantaging them further, and creating even greater disparity in those that go up, against those that play by the rules/guidelines. It will be a win win for Cash/Tech, but a pretty serious kick in the guts for all the rest, not to mention their own 14th team, which itself would struggle to compete given that 6 of their best have been sent up to 15th grade. A mess of their own making, but a mess nonetheless. I would suggest that Mr Simpson probably doesn't give a financially incentivised damn about any of that though, given that it isn't him doing the work in the lead up. He will simply say thank you ever so much at the end of 2015, and take that team to the Nike.
Righto. Smash my post to pieces now...
Which bit?
Which bit?
LOL. Theres a confidence booster...
Any bit you want. Good points, bad points. Anything you fancy really
I think realistically that each junior grade would have maybe 40 kids of Rep level? I am ballparking it, so dont shred me up too badly please. Now for instance, one team has 15 (!) because of either parents being chatted up, or FTC kids saying come on over etc, or coaches reputation blah blah, that means the other teams get left with not very many between themselves.
Now, players migrating from a team where they are the big fish because it will obviously benefit them longer term is not really an issue, and it will always happen. Its the deliberate recruitment of players to create a super team in time for the Nike Cup that bothers me. Its great for the kids WHEN ITS TIME FOR THAT TOURNAMENT, because they will be in a position to possibly advance in that competition. Its making a bit of a farce out of the league balance though, just as much as the mass "playing up" of a team is.
One could probably argue that one may even be a by product of the other, especially when you consider which teams, grades and clubs are doing this. The very worst thing would be if the team of 15 top level players opted to play up a grade, thus removing that level of competition from the other top level boys completely, thereby disadvantaging them further, and creating even greater disparity in those that go up, against those that play by the rules/guidelines. It will be a win win for Cash/Tech, but a pretty serious kick in the guts for all the rest, not to mention their own 14th team, which itself would struggle to compete given that 6 of their best have been sent up to 15th grade. A mess of their own making, but a mess nonetheless. I would suggest that Mr Simpson probably doesn't give a financially incentivised damn about any of that though, given that it isn't him doing the work in the lead up. He will simply say thank you ever so much at the end of 2015, and take that team to the Nike.
Righto. Smash my post to pieces now...
Redefine rep level. I'd prefer to think international level, the kids who really stand out and have that kind of potential are the ones that NEED to play up. In Chch that might be 5-6 players per age group; of which only 1 or 2 in each year will be good enough to make it through (if they're lucky) to national level.
Apart from those half doz, the rest are probably well catered for playing in their own age group until they're 15.
I would agree that too many rules can be more harm than help, but would you not say that a rule followed by some and not others, silly or not, does MORE harm? And if a top team is taken up a grade, turning its previous grade into a two horse race with blowouts all over the place and only really two games that mean anything competition wise, does that too not create an unbalanced playing field?
I do see your point Ron. Thank you for your observations.
I would agree that too many rules can be more harm than help, but would you not say that a rule followed by some and not others, silly or not, does MORE harm? And if a top team is taken up a grade, turning its previous grade into a two horse race with blowouts all over the place and only really two games that mean anything competition wise, does that too not create an unbalanced playing field?
I do see your point Ron. Thank you for your observations.
Big difference between a whole team playing up compared to a couple of players. What happens is that if several teams in each grade play up, then the ones playing up will end up playing the lesser teams of that older age group, not the best, as they are playing up also, creating a domino effect, whereby teams are not necessarily playing better teams, but more physically matured players - not necessarily technically or tactically better.
Not an easy one. Once one or two large clubs don't tow the line, all relative comparison is gone out the window.
This chronological age thing really is nonsense.
The grading system pathetic. (There is not one.)
However a few facts re: CTFC A squads.
16 A 4 or 5 players under 15 all others U16 Won 4-2 good game with Selwyn
15A 3 players under 14 (not 6) all others U15 Won 10 - 0 against StAC
14A All players under 14 none younger Won 10 - 0 against Mid Canty (We wont be struggling)
13A 1 player under 12 all others U13 Won 10 - 0 against Waimak B
All playing much as recommended by Mainland. I do not think the CTFC teams are in the wrong divisions. I do think our opponents are, in the 3 younger divisions at least.
Still do not let that stop you rubbishing our efforts. I really should apologise for our successes in the NIKE Cup also. I will remember to tell our players not to try so hard.
Sure the local competitions are poor. Not of my making and not entirely as I would have it. Our Junior Premiers were far superior competitions. I did actually have a little to do with there establishment and did nearly 2 years of researching the CJFA competitions and evaluating our player base, before introducing them. They worked until control was taken away from me. People then ignored the research and results and focused instead on playing elitist development groups. Whole Mainland selections playing out of their grades no pollination from the talented to the rest. A whole second tier of potential talent lost.
A much to serious problem for these pages!!
I think realistically that each junior grade would have maybe 40 kids of Rep level? I am ballparking it, so dont shred me up too badly please. Now for instance, one team has 15 (!) because of either parents being chatted up, or FTC kids saying come on over etc, or coaches reputation blah blah, that means the other teams get left with not very many between themselves.
Now, players migrating from a team where they are the big fish because it will obviously benefit them longer term is not really an issue, and it will always happen. Its the deliberate recruitment of players to create a super team in time for the Nike Cup that bothers me. Its great for the kids WHEN ITS TIME FOR THAT TOURNAMENT, because they will be in a position to possibly advance in that competition. Its making a bit of a farce out of the league balance though, just as much as the mass "playing up" of a team is.
One could probably argue that one may even be a by product of the other, especially when you consider which teams, grades and clubs are doing this. The very worst thing would be if the team of 15 top level players opted to play up a grade, thus removing that level of competition from the other top level boys completely, thereby disadvantaging them further, and creating even greater disparity in those that go up, against those that play by the rules/guidelines. It will be a win win for Cash/Tech, but a pretty serious kick in the guts for all the rest, not to mention their own 14th team, which itself would struggle to compete given that 6 of their best have been sent up to 15th grade. A mess of their own making, but a mess nonetheless. I would suggest that Mr Simpson probably doesn't give a financially incentivised damn about any of that though, given that it isn't him doing the work in the lead up. He will simply say thank you ever so much at the end of 2015, and take that team to the Nike.
Righto. Smash my post to pieces now...
Which bit?
Nike Cup Super Team 2014. Assembled over 6 years. Most (13) played for Cashmere or Tech from age 10 or younger. Only two players who live outside our slice of the Pizza. Those two have played for us for 3 seasons. Some accurate facts please.
Our recruitment begins at Primary level. We target the schools in our area.
Only 3 players playing up in 15's not 6 and our 14's will not struggle. They will have to try harder if they want to succeed, not something we are frightened to ask players to do. 10 nil win to open.
A mess of our making but a better mess than most me thinks!!
This chronological age thing really is nonsense.
The grading system pathetic. (There is not one.)
However a few facts re: CTFC A squads.
16 A 4 or 5 players under 15 all others U16 Won 4-2 good game with Selwyn
15A 3 players under 14 (not 6) all others U15 Won 10 - 0 against StAC
14A All players under 14 none younger Won 10 - 0 against Mid Canty (We wont be struggling)
13A 1 player under 12 all others U13 Won 10 - 0 against Waimak B
All playing much as recommended by Mainland. I do not think the CTFC teams are in the wrong divisions. I do think our opponents are, in the 3 younger divisions at least.
Still do not let that stop you rubbishing our efforts. I really should apologise for our successes in the NIKE Cup also. I will remember to tell our players not to try so hard.
Sure the local competitions are poor. Not of my making and not entirely as I would have it. Our Junior Premiers were far superior competitions. I did actually have a little to do with there establishment and did nearly 2 years of researching the CJFA competitions and evaluating our player base, before introducing them. They worked until control was taken away from me. People then ignored the research and results and focused instead on playing elitist development groups. Whole Mainland selections playing out of their grades no pollination from the talented to the rest. A whole second tier of potential talent lost.
A much to serious problem for these pages!!
That's reasonable numbers playing up, quite different from complete squads as with other clubs. No one should have issue with that, and it would take responsible approach by club to make this work. Obviously it can. Looks much like dual banding, which raises its head every few years. Think it makes sense. Is Mainalnd signing off on these players playing up? Would they even know. Does anyone care?
This chronological age thing really is nonsense.
The grading system pathetic. (There is not one.)
However a few facts re: CTFC A squads.
16 A 4 or 5 players under 15 all others U16 Won 4-2 good game with Selwyn
15A 3 players under 14 (not 6) all others U15 Won 10 - 0 against StAC
14A All players under 14 none younger Won 10 - 0 against Mid Canty (We wont be struggling)
13A 1 player under 12 all others U13 Won 10 - 0 against Waimak B
All playing much as recommended by Mainland. I do not think the CTFC teams are in the wrong divisions. I do think our opponents are, in the 3 younger divisions at least.
Still do not let that stop you rubbishing our efforts. I really should apologise for our successes in the NIKE Cup also. I will remember to tell our players not to try so hard.
Sure the local competitions are poor. Not of my making and not entirely as I would have it. Our Junior Premiers were far superior competitions. I did actually have a little to do with there establishment and did nearly 2 years of researching the CJFA competitions and evaluating our player base, before introducing them. They worked until control was taken away from me. People then ignored the research and results and focused instead on playing elitist development groups. Whole Mainland selections playing out of their grades no pollination from the talented to the rest. A whole second tier of potential talent lost.
A much to serious problem for these pages!!
I believe 13As actually won 30 nil?
This chronological age thing really is nonsense.
The grading system pathetic. (There is not one.)
However a few facts re: CTFC A squads.
16 A 4 or 5 players under 15 all others U16 Won 4-2 good game with Selwyn
15A 3 players under 14 (not 6) all others U15 Won 10 - 0 against StAC
14A All players under 14 none younger Won 10 - 0 against Mid Canty (We wont be struggling)
13A 1 player under 12 all others U13 Won 10 - 0 against Waimak B
All playing much as recommended by Mainland. I do not think the CTFC teams are in the wrong divisions. I do think our opponents are, in the 3 younger divisions at least.
Still do not let that stop you rubbishing our efforts. I really should apologise for our successes in the NIKE Cup also. I will remember to tell our players not to try so hard.
Sure the local competitions are poor. Not of my making and not entirely as I would have it. Our Junior Premiers were far superior competitions. I did actually have a little to do with there establishment and did nearly 2 years of researching the CJFA competitions and evaluating our player base, before introducing them. They worked until control was taken away from me. People then ignored the research and results and focused instead on playing elitist development groups. Whole Mainland selections playing out of their grades no pollination from the talented to the rest. A whole second tier of potential talent lost.
A much to serious problem for these pages!!
I believe 13As actually won 30 nil?
Should be 8 goals not 10!
This chronological age thing really is nonsense.
The grading system pathetic. (There is not one.)
However a few facts re: CTFC A squads.
16 A 4 or 5 players under 15 all others U16 Won 4-2 good game with Selwyn
15A 3 players under 14 (not 6) all others U15 Won 10 - 0 against StAC
14A All players under 14 none younger Won 10 - 0 against Mid Canty (We wont be struggling)
13A 1 player under 12 all others U13 Won 10 - 0 against Waimak B
All playing much as recommended by Mainland. I do not think the CTFC teams are in the wrong divisions. I do think our opponents are, in the 3 younger divisions at least.
Still do not let that stop you rubbishing our efforts. I really should apologise for our successes in the NIKE Cup also. I will remember to tell our players not to try so hard.
Sure the local competitions are poor. Not of my making and not entirely as I would have it. Our Junior Premiers were far superior competitions. I did actually have a little to do with there establishment and did nearly 2 years of researching the CJFA competitions and evaluating our player base, before introducing them. They worked until control was taken away from me. People then ignored the research and results and focused instead on playing elitist development groups. Whole Mainland selections playing out of their grades no pollination from the talented to the rest. A whole second tier of potential talent lost.
A much to serious problem for these pages!!
I think realistically that each junior grade would have maybe 40 kids of Rep level? I am ballparking it, so dont shred me up too badly please. Now for instance, one team has 15 (!) because of either parents being chatted up, or FTC kids saying come on over etc, or coaches reputation blah blah, that means the other teams get left with not very many between themselves.
Now, players migrating from a team where they are the big fish because it will obviously benefit them longer term is not really an issue, and it will always happen. Its the deliberate recruitment of players to create a super team in time for the Nike Cup that bothers me. Its great for the kids WHEN ITS TIME FOR THAT TOURNAMENT, because they will be in a position to possibly advance in that competition. Its making a bit of a farce out of the league balance though, just as much as the mass "playing up" of a team is.
One could probably argue that one may even be a by product of the other, especially when you consider which teams, grades and clubs are doing this. The very worst thing would be if the team of 15 top level players opted to play up a grade, thus removing that level of competition from the other top level boys completely, thereby disadvantaging them further, and creating even greater disparity in those that go up, against those that play by the rules/guidelines. It will be a win win for Cash/Tech, but a pretty serious kick in the guts for all the rest, not to mention their own 14th team, which itself would struggle to compete given that 6 of their best have been sent up to 15th grade. A mess of their own making, but a mess nonetheless. I would suggest that Mr Simpson probably doesn't give a financially incentivised damn about any of that though, given that it isn't him doing the work in the lead up. He will simply say thank you ever so much at the end of 2015, and take that team to the Nike.
Righto. Smash my post to pieces now...
Which bit?
Nike Cup Super Team 2014. Assembled over 6 years. Most (13) played for Cashmere or Tech from age 10 or younger. Only two players who live outside our slice of the Pizza. Those two have played for us for 3 seasons. Some accurate facts please.
Our recruitment begins at Primary level. We target the schools in our area.
Only 3 players playing up in 15's not 6 and our 14's will not struggle. They will have to try harder if they want to succeed, not something we are frightened to ask players to do. 10 nil win to open.
A mess of our making but a better mess than most me thinks!!
I was not referring to 2014 NIKE sorry PT. It was a reference to the future ones.
Your targetting of schools is exactly as it should be, no issues there at all.
My facts on numbers were inaccurate re playing up. My apologies.
My question to you will be, what happens when the 32-0 (and that score is from a lad in the Waimak B team who was there,not 10-0 as you quoted from the watered down mainland results board) gets turned into 14-0 when you play Bays,FC or Coastal because you have half the top level players in one squad? Its nothing to do with fairness, its about getting a decent level of competition for all. It doesn't give your boys much either to be honest. So the only thing to really do is move that team up to provide them with competition, or, as revolutionary as it may seem, DIVIDE them into two teams of equal ability and train them together...
I feel sorry for those kids who got pumped 30+. Good bye confidence.
I feel sorry for those kids who got pumped 30+. Good bye confidence.
Get a better coach maybe?
Needs to be taken some note of by club to see if it's wrong grade or something else.
I feel sorry for those kids who got pumped 30+. Good bye confidence.
Get a better coach maybe?
Needs to be taken some note of by club to see if it's wrong grade or something else.
30+ is more than a coaching issue in my eyes. Means one of the teams is in the wrong grade.
I feel sorry for those kids who got pumped 30+. Good bye confidence.
Get a better coach maybe?
Needs to be taken some note of by club to see if it's wrong grade or something else.
They were promoted on Tuesday. Against their will.
CTFC 14's can't struggle Fred when FC2011 have sent their team to 15's.
CTFC's respective strengths aren't the problem it's the fact that per grade we have a situation of "density of numbers" leading to pretty much 2-3 horse races.
Your 14's should win in absolute canter but it's not an even field.
Yes School of Football was rubbish.
I feel sorry for those kids who got pumped 30+. Good bye confidence.
Get a better coach maybe?
Needs to be taken some note of by club to see if it's wrong grade or something else.
They were promoted on Tuesday. Against their will.
As were other sides. Sounds tough but if that Waimak coach refuses to play Saturday who could blame him?
The answer to that question is, that I would do what has already been done. That being to suggest that, if Mainland feel we need regrading, then do so. We are looking for competition. If they want to push us up a whole grade that is not a problem. More importantly, though, is for them to do something about the Waimak side. We enter a division expecting to play other First Division sides.
Why are the Waimak B side there. They are not a First Division side. Similarly if the FC side is playing up a grade that is not my fault. You can not heap all your frustrations on me.
I am also frustrated with the competition structure. I have for over 30 years believed that the lack of regular quality competition is the major stumbling block to the development of our better young players. Hence the Junior Premiers.
I have not recruited or even approached a single junior player or parent from another club at any time since joining Cashmere. If anyone is telling you otherwise they are lying.
It never ceases to amaze me that parents would want to join a club miles from their home base. We do run open trials for any and every player who wants to trial, every year. I do, very often, ask new players why they are at our trials. 9 times out of 10 it is a change of address or dissatisfaction with their current club / coach and then the fact that they see CTFC as being a better option.
As to the Nike Cup syndrome. When I first came to work for Cashmere we were losing players left right and centre, to Coastal (for their Aussie Kanga trip). To Ferrymead for their U15 Aussie trip and to Nomads for Danny's programme.
The Nike cup came along and we worked hard to be successful, with our own players in 2012, 2013 and this year 2014.
Because of our success we now find ourselves as an attractive option for some of the hired guns across the city. Never the less you will find that the bulk of all our teams have an address in our slice of the pie, I do not see that changing.
As to others doing the work to develop the players for my benefit. I can assure you that the age group coaches have always been part of our Nike campaigns and will continue to be so. I am involved as I am with our 17's and 19's because it is part of my job.
CTFC 14's can't struggle Fred when FC2011 have sent their team to 15's.
CTFC's respective strengths aren't the problem it's the fact that per grade we have a situation of "density of numbers" leading to pretty much 2-3 horse races.
Your 14's should win in absolute canter but it's not an even field.
Yes School of Football was rubbish.
Very rarely that above 12th grade it is anything other than a 2 or 3 horse race. No different over the past 20 years other than during the Junior Premiers.
The answer to that question is, that I would do what has already been done. That being to suggest that, if Mainland feel we need regrading, then do so. We are looking for competition. If they want to push us up a whole grade that is not a problem. More importantly, though, is for them to do something about the Waimak side. We enter a division expecting to play other First Division sides.
Do you have the player depth to field two balanced sides? Staying in 13th grade obviously?
The answer to that question is, that I would do what has already been done. That being to suggest that, if Mainland feel we need regrading, then do so. We are looking for competition. If they want to push us up a whole grade that is not a problem. More importantly, though, is for them to do something about the Waimak side. We enter a division expecting to play other First Division sides.
Do you have the player depth to field two balanced sides? Staying in 13th grade obviously?
Don't know, not something we have ever tried. We select our best side to play Div. One, and the next best to play in as high a level they can. The same as most other clubs.
Best with the best against the best is how it should work. We can only control the first two.
I know other clubs have tried your option on occasions, I seem to recall it did not work for them.
U13's always seem to be a bit of a mess as clubs require 2 or 3 more players per team and you have the start of the migration of players to schools.
The key is to be prepared for it.
Nothing to stop other clubs doing what we do. It does not happen overnight. About 90% of our junior membership is based between Waltham Road and Hoon Hay Road. That is at both the elite and recreational levels. We continue to target new players in our zone.
There are other clubs doing some really good work as well, the success is all relative. We have quickly established a competitive structure. We were a late merger and not the first to get organised. Getting the numbers is a serious component.
We run an in house programme that ensures we have a good foundation of players. We have a group of enthusiastic, educated and talented coaches.
We have a senior body that is really interested and supportive of our efforts and some committee and board volunteers that are simply amazing.
Having said all that , there are things we need to do better and we wont be sitting back waiting for others to catch us or go past us.
Check out Mainland website for info on junior-aged players playing senior football.
Check out Mainland website for info on junior-aged players playing senior football.
Wow - 1 week in from season start. Note juniors enforcement 2015 by looks of things? Another shambles without consultation after the horse has bolted.
Wow - 1 week in from season start. Note juniors enforcement 2015 by looks of things? Another shambles without consultation after the horse has bolted.
Probably more a case of ensuring all teams are following the same rules.... after all FC, Selwyn, Tech, Coastal, Nomads & Waimak seem to have followed them (well at least for the players named in the documents)
The 13th grade D1 debacle has been sorted. Waimak B back where they should be, and its a fresh start for the 6 remaining teams. Last weeks matches are apparently deemed friendlies.
Not the worst result I guess.
The 13th grade D1 debacle has been sorted. Waimak B back where they should be, and its a fresh start for the 6 remaining teams. Last weeks matches are apparently deemed friendlies.
Not the worst result I guess.
Sh#! bang goes our goal difference!!!
The 13th grade D1 debacle has been sorted. Waimak B back where they should be, and its a fresh start for the 6 remaining teams. Last weeks matches are apparently deemed friendlies.
Not the worst result I guess.
The 13th grade D1 debacle has been sorted. Waimak B back where they should be, and its a fresh start for the 6 remaining teams. Last weeks matches are apparently deemed friendlies.
Not the worst result I guess.
Sh#! bang goes our goal difference!!!
LOL. You were only getting a 30% return anyway...
The 13th grade D1 debacle has been sorted. Waimak B back where they should be, and its a fresh start for the 6 remaining teams. Last weeks matches are apparently deemed friendlies.
Not the worst result I guess.
OK, I am scared now...
Check out Mainland website for info on junior-aged players playing senior football.
Wow - 1 week in from season start. Note juniors enforcement 2015 by looks of things? Another shambles without consultation after the horse has bolted.
Another mis-match in 14th Div 1 today. After losing 15-0 last week Fc2011 red lost 0-18 against Waimak today...
good grief.
sending the A team up to 15's was also going to expose "C" team players in Div 1.
mind you the FC2011 15's did beat CTFC today.
mind you the FC2011 15's did beat CTFC today.
Thatll be because CTFC 15 A's are playing 16th grade? It's all a bit messy isn't it?
Out of interest how much in a 15th grade game should the letter of the law be applied? I saw an incident in a game today with a player clear through on goal only to be totally wiped out in the area as he rounded the keeper. A penalty was given, but in any senior game the defender would have been sent.
I'm not sure what div it was in, but it just made me think about when does the letter of the law start applying?