NZF talented player pathways - NZF way or the highway

Not sure if this should be separate topic or not, or in which forum.

Whole of Football plan identifies progression for elite junior players as 1) Federation Talent Centre, 2) National Talent Centre and 3) Talent Excel programme. Seems NZF are about to deny access to NTC to players not signed up to NZF aligned FTCs (who may or may not be training in private academies). Thinking goes that they have no control over those programmes etc. There were rumours of an accreditation programme to private providers but that seems to have turned decidely pear-shaped.

Anyone have any thoughts, inside info or usubstantiated hearsay? Job for Fred, perhaps?

Its good to have some structure around talent progression but I think that NZ Football misses out on a lot of players who aren't in the 'system' or not playing at top clubs for one reason or another.

" Seems NZF are about to deny access to NTC to players not signed up to NZF aligned FTCs "

Yes and this is an inherent problem with the system : many talented players who don't attend FTC'S, primarily due to the cost

are basically then cast adrift from the NZ development system. I know of a good number of local players who, since their parents are unable or unwilling

to pay 800-900 dollars to attend the FTC programme, are then consigned to the scrapheap. I always thought the aim was to be inclusive,

especially since the NZ talent pool is relatively small; but no it seems that the aim is to swell the coffers of the local Federation first, and pushing through the

VERY BEST comes second. By attending FTC's, parents are basically buying entry to NTC/trial scenarios: is this how to run a sport? I think not...

Completly agree, I have anacdotal evidence that there were a number of players not allowed to be nominated for the recent U17/U20 open trials in Wellington because they weren't playing in Central League or at the 'right clubs'. If true then it is a disgracfull attitude and one that will hold back Football in NZ. An open trial is an open trail, all players nominated by their clubs should be given a shot, this is where you can discover those gems that aren't in the system.

Unless we can revamp our talent identification and support systems then the sport is not going to go forward.

Too much nepotism and politics at junior level sees talented players miss out on opportunities and then not develop as well as they could have due to lack of exposure to quality coaching etc.

NZF really needs to sort out its relationship with private academies too - they represent a great resource for player development at no cost to NZF. Obviously there are difficulties there but we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water.

There is also a federation quota in place. My son moved from Central Federation aligned with Wellington NTC to attend boarding school in WaiBOP Federation that aligned to NTC Auckland. The move to boarding school was prompted as the NTC coaches recommended that my son move to a region where there is a higher standard of football if he wanted to maintain his progress. This is what we did. Next NTC in Auckland he missed out because the quota for WAIBOP players had been filled. The irony is that they still had him noted to attend the Wellngton NTC but could not attend because he was registered in WaiBOP. If you are not good enough just say so. 

Also with regard to FTC. WaiBOP have down graded the 16 Boys group as alot of the players were struggling to fit everything in. Typical WaiBop 16 Boy was training 2/3 times a week with school 1st XI, at least 2 x per week with a club team and play as many as 3 games per weekend for school and club and still fit in two contacts a week with the FTC. Unless you are in NTC it becomes the lowest football priority. The carrot dangled for those boys that were not NTC was an inter federation tournament at the end of the year. Not enough really. WaiBOP FTC cost was $140.00 per term for 3 terms of the year.

The other thing that is interesting is the number of organisations offering US College Scholarship Talent ID trials. For a long time Malcolm MacPherson has been running this a business out of Auckland, now the federations are offering something similar on the back of FTC's. Even APFA are promoting US Scolarship trails.

As others said earlier, alot about money/cashflow and not really about talent.

$5,000 for a Euro or US tour in front of "top pro club and college scouts"!

Cha-ching!

USA: If you cant pass your SATs and maintain academic standard you are out.

Euro : got a EU passport son? No? Sorry, don't waste our time (but we'll happily pocket the tour fee your academy is charging you)

Why do parents continue to fund these academies? I know, I know, every kid deserves "a chance at his dream".

APFA in Lincoln charges $700 for a one week trial and +$20K PER YEAR for full time "scholars" - and plenty of them are not even up to local FTC/NTC standard, but mummy and daddy can afford it.

Mainland FTC cost is $750 per year! Ouch. But the way it stands today (Sunday 12th), you have to pay the FTC fee, whether it's any good or not, to have a crack at NTC.

Accreditation system for private academies IS the way to go. Then 'the market' will decide which training environment is right and NTC selection (assuming that is the pinnacle as it is a lead in to U17 World cup training squad) is inclusive to all players; isn't that what a player-centerered talent identification system is all about? Aaah, but the  Feds will lose some income stream....

By the way, lots of discussions held on this matter at NZF this week. Decision is close i hear. 

there is sound reasons why NZF would want the NTC following from FTC. It's tough enough as it is witout 5 diffferent accreditors potentially providing players for the 1 week session. At least with FTC (in theory) the participents are being coached from the same framework.

the best with the best is an odd claim and also an odd expectation. Parents may choose to not commit the time , as stated above be unable to afford, and also the old chestnut of the vaguries of selection.

I am enjoying you getting fired up abouth this though Strtford, as I recall you were fairly condescending about those of us who offered similar concerns around the the old school of football program.  Expecting the market to correct of fix anything seems to be the single worst way to get anything in line. What may change things  is hard work, get into coaching, get your tickets and try to reshape from the inside. Because the talent pool for football is so small having 83 seperate entitites each offering the best with the best seems both naive and laughable.

For better or for worse we have a governing body. Working with, not against, seems the logical thing to do.

My concern with the NTC (and FTC to  degree) is the selection set up. Not too long ago we had 2 ex all whites running NTC assessments in canterbury. This is fantastic.

...Until you realise some of the players they were assessing were their own sons - conflict of interest much?

For me FTC/NTC coaches should not have their own kids involved in the age group they're running/assessing. They're paid positions, it isn't like the south island rep teams where the coaches are all volunteers.

Sad to hear this all still happening, 10 years ago me and my friend from a small local club went to a federation trial. When we turned up it was plainly obvious all the boys and their familys already knew each other, we were given fifteen minutes each of an eighty minute game and weren't allowed to play in our preferred positions. We were the best players on the pitch regardless - even the boys on the team admitted it, but no surprises when we didn't get picked. I still blame this for me never making the Phoenix! Haha.

But yes, NZF need to start widening their search and start including talented children from lesser clubs and walks of life if they ever plan on bringing the future of football here forward.

Yup Gings , absolutely on the parent or team coach in corrospnding age group. Same applies with the SI tournament although I have been told if Mainland put a blanket ban on it there wouldn't be enough volunteers for this part of the season. Simply put we don't have a surplus of people like you offering their time.

I'm well keen for the Rep coaches to be appointed before the comp starts and you take a grade that is a different time to your club side. We only get 2 trials to sort the teams, it's very helpful to have seen players inside their own club teams.

My information is that NZF HAVE decided to exclude players attending a private academy (APFA) from upcoming South Island NTC, as they are not attending the Mainland/Football South FTCs and an accreditation program for outside providers is not in place. However there is one exception - a player whose dad happens to be coaching at NTC. Oh dear.

This decision will mean that not all the best players in that age group will be at NTC. Looks like there is the NZF way (FTC/NTC); or pick your own pathway (club, academies etc) who choose their own development program but will be excluded from NTC until/if accreditation takes place. APFA have certainly 'achieved' very highly in a short period of time; ie, put players on a pro football pathway and got fantastic publicity and a good deal of income accordingly.

Call me idealistic but I think there needs to be a place at the top (national squads) for the best players we have, no matter what development pathway they may have chosen - club, academy, school, FTC, in the system or outside the system. So I think NZF have got this decision wrong.

Its not only the elite players that are getting screwed either. There are plenty of clubs charging dollars for school holiday programmes under a variety of guises, that are nothing more that money making ventures.

To even get into a position where the almighty can see you and invite you to these schools of excellence that Stretford talks about - a parent needs to fork out wads of cash for local academies, clinics etc. The ticket is being clipped at every step of the way and potential is being missed because not everybody ahs the money to participate. Do you think the likes of Brasil operate this type of system?

As an aside I'm interested in finding out if other clubs in Wellington have their own internal academy systems to develop their players from youth through to seniors (I don't mean things like Oles hook up with Island bay I'm thinking internal development). If so I would be keen to find out how they operate etc.

I am a strong believer in developing talent within the club for all levels of players but also bringing in outside expertise to assist when necesary i.e. goal keeping coaches etc.

At my club we have started to focus more on bring youth through but I'm interested in doing it in a structured way and also providing improvement opportunities for those players who aren't ever going to be at the top but want to reach their full potential (without the kids paying the silly fees that academies charge etc.)

If anyone is keen to discuss pm me as I'm open to advice on how to go about this.

Isn't that a waste of time and money?  it is like people spending time and effort trying to improve my trumpet skills - pointless

Not a waste at all, its the basic aim of coaching to get the best out of those you train, if you can't do that you may as well not be a coach or have any teams apart from a 1st team.

As to your trumpet skills I know a bloke who can help....

I believe the OP is exactly right. From my experience in Wellington atleast, you go to the Federation training or you don't get any further in relation to national teams or so called "Talent centres" There's so many problems with this. I can think of three age groups of Federation where the best players have left because

a) The coaching wasn't good enough
b) The other players weren't at a good enough level to train with and get better

c) The training sessions were in general poor (ie pitch, drills etc.)

It's definitely a reoccuring theme that the best players go to clubs or academies to get proper training and competition. The fact that there is not tournement for Federation and that half the games that thet play are against other age groups of the same Federation (94v95, 95v96, 96v97 etc.) is outrageous. There is no incentive to choose a Federation training over a Lower Hutt, Miramar, Olympic, Western Suburbs etc. training. NZF should have proper scouts looking where talent can be found, young players playing in Central League/Champs Premier.  Sorry if my post is specific to Wellington, but it's the only region I have experience with

An update on the issue that sparked this thread: NZF have excluded players from a private provider (APFA academy) from October NTC programme. It now appears NZF & the Feds (potential band name?) have committed to instigating an accreditation process by end of 2012. This would allow best-with-best (Mainland's phrase I think) at NTC in 2013.

There was mention a while back of a Talent Excel thingy that brings best of the 3 NTCS (2 x Nth Is, 1 x Sth Is) together at a live-in, hothouse academy type environment, but I've heard nothing more on that.

If NZF accreditation of private providers eventuates, I think the result is OK as players have a choice - develop in whichever environment is seen as most desirable for that individual - club, school, private provider. The best of the club players will receive additional work at their local FTC (clubs working with their fed) and the best of the lot (club/FTC, private providers) will be able to compare notes, lyrca skins, branded footwear and latest trickery modelled from YouTube at NTC. Up to NZF to evaluate players from various sources for NTC selection. The process should incorporate the best players, no matter where they are developing. Well, that's the theory anyway.