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The Norman Conquests - Paying Players
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I think this is beginning to get out of what it was intended to be. members talking like policemen and now taxman. Its time for me to delet myself from this forum. enjoyed my short stay.
Ps JD never meant to be funny when i said have a pint of bitter on me tetleys was always my favorite drink back home. Cheers
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Of course in theory it should be declared and taxed, but that's completely off topic.
If you want to start a taxation thread, do it. Otherwise, debate the merits of payments, not the method of payment or accounting...
Chur.
Smithy.
If you want to start a taxation thread, do it. Otherwise, debate the merits of payments, not the method of payment or accounting...
Chur.
Smithy.
Incredible stamina. No shame. Yellow Fever.
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Yep no-one is trying to get anyone in trouble here and I have no doubt clubs are playing by the ball in structuring their affairs.
Normo's coming home
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I can get them off the Companies Office website for free so why not save us all some time and just tell us here?
Yawn. The issue is whether player payment info is available to members or not. I'm just pointing out, in response to JD, that at Welly U they are. In fact all account info is available on request to members, they just have to ask. As you're not a member though, feel free to trot along to the Companies Office website, last years accounts are there for you to goggle at, at your leisure. Have fun!
Gee rightstr, it's a shame there isn't an emoticon for condescending, you could have used it!
I think you've mis-interpreted the intent of my earlier question. The issue isn't whether player payment info is available to individual members - that's a total red herring. By and large that information is available - Wellington United is certainly only doing what you would expect any club to do and as I pointed out all incorporated societies post their accounts online anyway.
Any member of a club who an issue with any aspect of the club's operations also has some good remedies available to them. They can attend the AGM and ask questions, get elected to the committee, vote to have the committee replaced, or even just leave and find another club. What clubs do with the subs money they collect is up to them and if enough of the members don't like it they can do something about it.
What I do think is interesting (and maybe even the whole bottom line of this debate) is the question about materiality - just how big an issue is this really?
If clubs are generally paying out a few grand here and there and their members support that then who really cares? Hence my first question about whether any clubs would be happy to confirm what they pay out (and without anybody having to trawl the internet in some kind of witch hunt). Let's try and get a real sense of what's actually going on.
And if it turns out we really are talking about a total of $0.5m to $1.0m across Wellington that's really serious money! Hence my second question about whether clubs who are paying players should also have access to community trust funding.
I think those are valid questions, especially in the current economic climate. Don't you?
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yep I agree. But your question referred to individual clubs disclosing in public what they paid players. Members are certainly entitled to information on where their money gets spent, but is the public? So your question just seemed pointless. But sorry! Anyway all getting a bit off topic. This has been a great debate but I'm still looking for a solution that will enable me as chairman to run a 1st team that can compete in Central League and not have to allocate scarce funds to players at the same time.
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I reckon at the end of the day if X player won't play because he's not getting payed X amount of dollars then quite simply these people don't share the same love of the game that most of us do and are obviously greedy gits.
I was speaking to a CL player the other day who said he didnt think he would play if he didnt get his hundie a week, as his time would be better spent on his building career
Founder
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I reckon at the end of the day if X player won't play because he's not getting payed X amount of dollars then quite simply these people don't share the same love of the game that most of us do and are obviously greedy gits.
I was speaking to a CL player the other day who said he didnt think he would play if he didnt get his hundie a week, as his time would be better spent on his building career
Then monkeyboy is right - he doesn't share our love of the game.
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I think that JD mentions it in his blog that here at London Poly, there are a whole bunch of kiwi National League players who pay �70 subs and then �10 per game to play every week. I am sure that some of them were paid some pretty substantial coin to play back home, yet over here (while larging it up on their big OE) they are prepared to travel all round London (which is a pretty big place for those of you that haven't been here) and pay for the chance to play.
I think that is the attitude that most of the top players round the central league and Wellington Premier Division would have.
All I do is make the stuff I would've liked
Reference things I wanna watch, reference girls I wanna bite
Now I'm firefly like a burning kite
And yousa fake fuck like a fleshlight
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I reckon at the end of the day if X player won't play because he's not getting payed X amount of dollars then quite simply these people don't share the same love of the game that most of us do and are obviously greedy gits.
I was speaking to a CL player the other day who said he didnt think he would play if he didnt get his hundie a week, as his time would be better spent on his building career
Greenie, I think a lot of people would question the wisdom of paying people to play amateur football, who actually are keen to play, let alone paying those who actually aren't interested in playing other than for the money!! That's surely a terrible use of funds?
Any recent big money deals? Or better, any clubs looking to attract or develop talent in innovative ways?
Anyway, some interesting thoughts from Billy Harris on pay in the NZFC which in some respects neatly replicates the argument in Wellington.
"Speaking of big money, fans will have choked on their breakfast last week when they read that Auckland City paid $300,000 on their team this year. Captain Ivan Vicelic, according to the report, is paid $50,000 to play in the 14 game NZFC season (plus playoffs), while Korean Ki-Hyung "the Cannon Shooter" Lee gets $70,000 for his troubles. You can bet, too, that Spaniard Xavi Roca didn't come all this way for the scenery.
Technically, of course, the players aren't paid to play. They're employed to do other jobs, and play for free. But clearly the two are inextricably linked. Could Ki-Hyung Lee play for Manawatu in the NZFC and keep his $70,000 job? Of course not. No play for Auckland City, no pay.
Is there a problem with that? If Auckland City are awash with dosh, and they want to employ people they feel will enhance their team, good luck to them. They're competing for a place at the World Club championships, and with it a prize of a million dollars. Go for it.
Is it Auckland's problem if other franchises in the NZFC are so short of funds that they can't enter teams in the national youth league? If Otago, Canterbury, Wellington, Manawatu or Waikato had to pull out, thereby scuppering youth football, the future of our sport? Is it Auckland's problem that those same areas are so strapped that their senior teams are also in doubt, putting our flagship competition, the NZFC, in danger?
Is it Auckland's problem if there's no national league and we return to a mickey mouse regional system, which will reduce the standard, and drag the top teams down with it? Is it their problem if they win whatever half-arsed competition we have, go to the world champs and, soft from lack of serious competition, fail to put up a decent fight against the world's best? If Sepp Blatter, already teetering on the edge, decides New Zealand isn't worth a place there and we lose the million bucks?
FIFA's motto is "for the good of the game". For the good of the game in New Zealand, you gotta wonder if there isn't a better use for that $300,000."
Normo's coming home
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I can get them off the Companies Office website for free so why not save us all some time and just tell us here?
Yawn. The issue is whether player payment info is available to members or not. I'm just pointing out, in response to JD, that at Welly U they are. In fact all account info is available on request to members, they just have to ask. As you're not a member though, feel free to trot along to the Companies Office website, last years accounts are there for you to goggle at, at your leisure. Have fun!
Gee rightstr, it's a shame there isn't an emoticon for condescending, you could have used it!
I think you've mis-interpreted the intent of my earlier question. The issue isn't whether player payment info is available to individual members - that's a total red herring. By and large that information is available - Wellington United is certainly only doing what you would expect any club to do and as I pointed out all incorporated societies post their accounts online anyway.
Any member of a club who an issue with any aspect of the club's operations also has some good remedies available to them. They can attend the AGM and ask questions, get elected to the committee, vote to have the committee replaced, or even just leave and find another club. What clubs do with the subs money they collect is up to them and if enough of the members don't like it they can do something about it.
What I do think is interesting (and maybe even the whole bottom line of this debate) is the question about materiality - just how big an issue is this really?
If clubs are generally paying out a few grand here and there and their members support that then who really cares? Hence my first question about whether any clubs would be happy to confirm what they pay out (and without anybody having to trawl the internet in some kind of witch hunt). Let's try and get a real sense of what's actually going on.
And if it turns out we really are talking about a total of $0.5m to $1.0m across Wellington that's really serious money! Hence my second question about whether clubs who are paying players should also have access to community trust funding.
I think those are valid questions, especially in the current economic climate. Don't you?
I think the issue is alos are members given exact figures, or just directed to the accounts which are less than clear as to exactly what is being spent on players? AS TX says, it makes the entire issue hard to quantify, certainly I struggled it when looking at the available accounts.
Normo's coming home
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Im still gasping at Capital premier players get payed for there clubs. In the Homeworx Premiership in Napier (including Gisborne Thistle & City) Only 1 team that i know of was paying its players and they still didnt win the league. But therefore i may say that the premier competition in Wellington may be at a higher standard because of this.
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RJM11 no-one is yet to explain how paying players = an increase in standards. When you are spending your money on getting the same player pool to change clubs , rather than on coaching/facilities/equipment how is it ever have that result?
Normo's coming home
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Surely you wouldn't play a crap player.
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Anyone see the article in Saturday's Dompost re paying players. Can't find the online story
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yeah was about to mention G's comments about nobody getting more than fifty bucks..
Founder
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yeah was about to mention G's comments about nobody getting more than fifty bucks..
G included?
All I do is make the stuff I would've liked
Reference things I wanna watch, reference girls I wanna bite
Now I'm firefly like a burning kite
And yousa fake fuck like a fleshlight
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Might be true this year, but shows a short memory....
Incredible stamina. No shame. Yellow Fever.
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You ?
$200 per goal.
Too soon ?
Sorry.
$200 per goal.
Too soon ?
Sorry.
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theres a link on YF front page to article (pick the person in the photo)
Founder
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What's worse...they spelt my name wrong 
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theres a link on YF front page to article (pick the person in the photo)
Going by one of them is wearing coloured boots, and it is at Newtown then I reckon for Jimmy the Mouth.
2ndBest2009-04-05 22:09:41
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The most disappointing thing in that article is that Capital Football are admitting that there is a problem but are not attempting at all to deal with it. I find that quite poor, this is an issue that demands leadership but is being put in the too hard basket.
Normo's coming home
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So what steps could CF take JD? Could CF write into their CL registration rules that clubs must open their books.
Another dimension to this is claiming that payment is partly for coaching. I wonder how much coaching goes on. Could imagine their would be cases where contracts/agreement where player get paid for taking one one-hour coaching session, as opposed to taking a junior team for a whole season.
2ndBest2009-04-06 22:18:43
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You'd know that CF are struggling to get out Saturdays draw JD if you weren't sitting in your London penthouse office smoking cigars
Founder
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Yes that's a good point Greenie, and I'm not expecting them to do anything overnight, it's obviously something that needs to be worked through with the clubs, and would need club backing. As someone said a while ago on this thread, Capital Football really only exists to put into practice the wishes of the clubs and the players who pay the bills.
There would have to be a consensus from the club members that they wanted a change. I'm merely expressing my views. I'm not sure exactly hat the answer is but I'll have a think. For me, openness is the first goal, it needs to be clear who is getting paid what and for what. This isn't information that has to be shared with the world, but clubs should be discloisng this to Capital Football.
I'd also be interestd in what NZF thinks about this as an issue.
james dean2009-04-06 23:38:34Normo's coming home
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Cash attracts mercenaries, says McGrath
By ROBIN MARTIN - Taranaki Daily News
The Dominion Post reported on Saturday that several clubs in the nominally amateur league had budgets of $100,000 and that at least one player was earning $800 a game plus expenses. There is no rule against paying Central League players, but McGrath said Team Taranaki had no player-payments budget. "What we do provide is a chance for them to play at a higher level at no cost to them," he said. "We don't pay anything directly to the players." Team Taranaki covers players' overnight accommodation and travel to away matches, plus breakfast and lunch on match days.McGrath, a former professional in the United Kingdom, doubted there were many players operating in the Central League worth $600-$700 a game. "If you throw big money at that level of football, in my experience, it tends to be a false economy because you attract mercenaries and you limit opportunities for local players."<!--<span ="ad_island_feedback">
<a href="#" target="_blank"><img src="images/downarrow.gif" height="5" width="8" border="0" /></a> <a href="#" target="_blank">Ad Feedback</a></span>-->Head coach Ian McGrath had only to take a quick look at the weekend papers to see what his Team Taranaki soccer side is up against in football's Central League this season.
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He should take a look at whats happening in his own backyard before maoning at others.
If you saw the names of the teams playing in the local New Plymouth league you would have no idea which clubs the represent.
A dog with a bone :)
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He has explained exactly what is happening in his own backyard, and all his comments seems pretty reasonable. What's got you hot under the collar this time?
Normo's coming home
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It all means nothing if you cant name players. Some do work fulltime for clubs so could be worth the $800 they are allegally being paid.
A dog with a bone :)
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He was only making comment on the article in the dominion post that refered to players earning that amount.
Are there clubs in the central league that have enough work for full time employees?
The only work I could think of would be after school coaching, coach education and team administration and management. This couldnt equate to 40 hours a week and therefore a weekly wage of $800 is exorbitant.
Underdog2009-04-08 21:58:10
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I agree nightz, there are definitely some players who are employed by clubs and do a great job. I don't think anyone (rational) is objecting to that. But there are others who are being paid for Tuesday/Thursday/Saturday, and that is the issue.
Normo's coming home
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I have been reading this post for some time now and everytime I read it there is something to laugh at. JD knows (or seems to) what he is talking about and so does the Naki coach. They are both from out of NZ and seem level headed about this player payment argument.The problem in NZ, particularly Wellington is that everyone seems to think they are better than what they actually are. End of the day maybe a win bonus is fair enough if it comes from the club chairmans pocket or other members of the club (or even when a team doesn't win much). But no one in Wellington should be getting paid. People get on the piss before games and the majority of players are going nowhere in football (myself included), so why get paid?
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I have been reading this post for some time now and everytime I read it there is something to laugh at. JD knows (or seems to) what he is talking about and so does the Naki coach. They are both from out of NZ and seem level headed about this player payment argument.The problem in NZ, particularly Wellington is that everyone seems to think they are better than what they actually are. End of the day maybe a win bonus is fair enough if it comes from the club chairmans pocket or other members of the club (or even when a team doesn't win much). But no one in Wellington should be getting paid. People get on the piss before games and the majority of players are going nowhere in football (myself included), so why get paid?
Not always true. I know I'm rubbish.
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I am mostly talking about people in central league and maybe some in the premier league. Not everyone of course. But there is always a few in a team
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I'm thinking I should ask for money not to play. Give me $50 a game or I'll play for you.
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He was only making comment on the article in the dominion post that refered to players earning that amount.
Are there clubs in the central league that have enough work for full time employees?
The only work I could think of would be after school coaching, coach education and team administration and management. This couldnt equate to 40 hours a week and therefore a weekly wage of $800 is exorbitant.
How about running programmes in school time for the schools, some players and even Capital Football staff do this.
A dog with a bone :)
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I agree nightz, there are definitely some players who are employed by clubs and do a great job. I don't think anyone (rational) is objecting to that. But there are others who are being paid for Tuesday/Thursday/Saturday, and that is the issue.
I dont believe you.
My reason for this is that no-one is being named with proof to back it up. For this to be such a big problem how about a list of ten names and amounts. Should be easy for you to compile as you think its such a big problem in the game here.
I dont think there are that many NZ players being paid big money by Wellington clubs just to play on Saturdays.
A dog with a bone :)
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Coaches (or in this case paid players) who run school programmes will generally be contracted to Capital Football and not the individual clubs.
If clubs are going into the schools it should be on a user pay's basis and therefore that coach will be earning his own wage. This is the ideal situation and if this is happening full credit to the clubs however I dont believe this is the case at all.
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