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Posted November 08, 2023 03:32 · last edited November 08, 2023 06:05

theprof
coochiee
theprof
that's kinda my point, if both leagues are gonna be the same, the what is the point of having promtion relegation?, you may as well have a 20 team league. If there is some financial drop in salary cap etc the promotion/relegation makes sense, but at that point splitting an existing league in half to create this scenario is hugely unfair on the teams relegated to create the second tier.

Because without pro/rel, by halfway through the season teams in the bottom half of a 20 team comp, will have squat to play for as the playoffs become quickly out of reach.

Pro/rel would add a whole different element, and no doubt produce some late season drama as with many leagues around the world. If there are no big financial penalties from dropping down to the A2 tier, then don't see any undue unfairness from being in the 2nd tier. Especially if A2 teams still get some opportunities to play A1 teams, keep traditional derby fixtures alive etc. 

As before that might as part of some preseason or even mid season Cup comp, where you group A1 & A2 teams in different pools (NSW pool, VIC pool etc) so derby rivals get to play each other. The MLS & Liga MX had their own mid season combined Cup comp this year

I agree with you on the dead rubber games. But from a league/club perspective when you have 20 teams in a league and you decide at some point to split the league into two 10 team leagues, you are literally creating two versions of what we had a few years back. ie a ten team league where you play each other 3 times instead of the normal home/away. Effectively your duplicating the problem you just solved by growing the league to 20 teams. 
Besides that, the bottom half of the league are not gonna be happy being used to create a second tier league if it is financially worse for them. And if it is just the same then you're running two identical leagues with some silly movement between them at the end of the season - it's ridiculous.

do you see what I mean? there has to be some reason to not want to be relogated, and it's usually the finacial hit you take from loss of tv/sponsor revenue. There also has to be some reward to being promoted, usually tv funding etc. If that doesnt exist ie the leaguea reb the same then there is just no point and you end up with the same meaningless games.

Disagree. There will be a prestige angle to playing in the A1. Plus you will be playing the better teams, who should have the higher quality, bigger drawcard players. The Grand Final will be between the two A1 teams that qualify. Maybe the A2 comp is just round robin with no final - 1st automatically promoted, teams 2nd-4th into pro/rel playoffs.

And yes sponsors will be more attracted to teams in the A1.

Seems some consensus that a 26 game round robin is about ideal. ie 2 rounds of a 14 team comp. Or 3 rounds of a 10 team comp (27 games).  

Or again it's 2 rounds of a 10 team comp, plus an elongated joint A1/A2 League Cup comp that has say 8 pool games, with big prize money and marketed prestige - replaces say the FA Cup and comes with an ACL qualifying spot. So again you get close to that 25-27 combined games in a regular season for all clubs. Plus finals & playoffs.

And as to the fairness of 10 teams just suddenly being demoted to an A2 division. Maybe it's done as the average of 3 years results (little complicated yes), with clubs having plenty of warning of the split, and time to prepare.

Again the format sounds similar to how Japan transitioned over time to 3 pro tiers. There is no rush for this to happen. You start with the NST and then when certain teams in that comp are ready they get elevated to the ALM. Again is no rush, and a A1/A2 split may never happen, if some clubs in the NST (now not scheduled to start until 2025) never get to an ALM club ready level.

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Unknown editor edited November 08, 2023 06:05
theprof
coochiee
theprof
that's kinda my point, if both leagues are gonna be the same, the what is the point of having promtion relegation?, you may as well have a 20 team league. If there is some financial drop in salary cap etc the promotion/relegation makes sense, but at that point splitting an existing league in half to create this scenario is hugely unfair on the teams relegated to create the second tier.

Because without pro/rel, by halfway through the season teams in the bottom half of a 20 team comp, will have squat to play for as the playoffs become quickly out of reach.

Pro/rel would add a whole different element, and no doubt produce some late season drama as with many leagues around the world. If there are no big financial penalties from dropping down to the A2 tier, then don't see any undue unfairness from being in the 2nd tier. Especially if A2 teams still get some opportunities to play A1 teams, keep traditional derby fixtures alive etc. 

As before that might as part of some preseason or even mid season Cup comp, where you group A1 & A2 teams in different pools (NSW pool, VIC pool etc) so derby rivals get to play each other. The MLS & Liga MX had their own mid season combined Cup comp this year

I agree with you on the dead rubber games. But from a league/club perspective when you have 20 teams in a league and you decide at some point to split the league into two 10 team leagues, you are literally creating two versions of what we had a few years back. ie a ten team league where you play each other 3 times instead of the normal home/away. Effectively your duplicating the problem you just solved by growing the league to 20 teams. 
Besides that, the bottom half of the league are not gonna be happy being used to create a second tier league if it is financially worse for them. And if it is just the same then you're running two identical leagues with some silly movement between them at the end of the season - it's ridiculous.

do you see what I mean? there has to be some reason to not want to be relogated, and it's usually the finacial hit you take from loss of tv/sponsor revenue. There also has to be some reward to being promoted, usually tv funding etc. If that doesnt exist ie the leaguea reb the same then there is just no point and you end up with the same meaningless games.

Disagree. There will be a prestige angle to playing in the A1. Plus you will be playing the better teams, who should have the higher quality, bigger drawcard players. The Grand Final will be between the two A1 teams that qualify. Maybe the A2 comp is just round robin with no final - 1st automatically promoted, teams 2nd-4th into pro/rel playoffs.

And yes sponsors will be more attracted to teams in the A1.

Seems some consensus that a 26 game round robin is about ideal. ie 2 rounds of a 14 team comp. Or 3 rounds of a 10 team comp (27 games).  

Or again it's 2 rounds of a 10 team comp, plus an elongated joint A1/A2 League Cup comp that has say 8 pool games, with big prize money and marketed prestige - replaces say the FA Cup and comes with an ACL qualifying spot. So again you get close to that 25-27 combined games in a regular season for all clubs. Plus finals & playoffs.

And as to the fairness of 10 teams just suddenly being demoted to an A2 division. Maybe it's done as the average of 3 years results (little complicated yes), with clubs having plenty of warning of the split, and time to prepare.

Again the format sounds similar to how Japan transistioned over time to 3 pro tiers. There is no rush for this to happen. You start with the NST and then when certain teams in that comp are ready they get elevated to the ALM. Again is no rush, and a A1/A2 split may never happen, if some clubs in the NST (now not scheduled to start until 2025) don't get to an ALM ready level.

Unknown editor edited November 08, 2023 04:42
theprof
coochiee
theprof
that's kinda my point, if both leagues are gonna be the same, the what is the point of having promtion relegation?, you may as well have a 20 team league. If there is some financial drop in salary cap etc the promotion/relegation makes sense, but at that point splitting an existing league in half to create this scenario is hugely unfair on the teams relegated to create the second tier.

Because without pro/rel, by halfway through the season teams in the bottom half of a 20 team comp, will have squat to play for as the playoffs become quickly out of reach.

Pro/rel would add a whole different element, and no doubt produce some late season drama as with many leagues around the world. If there are no big financial penalties from dropping down to the A2 tier, then don't see any undue unfairness from being in the 2nd tier. Especially if A2 teams still get some opportunities to play A1 teams, keep traditional derby fixtures alive etc. 

As before that might as part of some preseason or even mid season Cup comp, where you group A1 & A2 teams in different pools (NSW pool, VIC pool etc) so derby rivals get to play each other. The MLS & Liga MX had their own mid season combined Cup comp this year

I agree with you on the dead rubber games. But from a league/club perspective when you have 20 teams in a league and you decide at some point to split the league into two 10 team leagues, you are literally creating two versions of what we had a few years back. ie a ten team league where you play each other 3 times instead of the normal home/away. Effectively your duplicating the problem you just solved by growing the league to 20 teams. 
Besides that, the bottom half of the league are not gonna be happy being used to create a second tier league if it is financially worse for them. And if it is just the same then you're running two identical leagues with some silly movement between them at the end of the season - it's ridiculous.

do you see what I mean? there has to be some reason to not want to be relogated, and it's usually the finacial hit you take from loss of tv/sponsor revenue. There also has to be some reward to being promoted, usually tv funding etc. If that doesnt exist ie the leaguea reb the same then there is just no point and you end up with the same meaningless games.

Disagree. There will be a prestige angle to playing in the A1. Plus you will be playing the better teams, who should have the better, higher drawcard players. The Grand Final will be between the 2 A1 teams that qualify. Maybe the A2 comp is just round robin with no final - 1st automatically promoted, teams 2nd-4th into pro/rel playoffs.

And yes sponsors will be more attracted to teams in the A1.

Seems some consensus that a 26 game round robin is about ideal. ie 2 rounds of a 14 team comp. Or 3 rounds of a 10 team comp (27 games).  

Or again it's 2 rounds of a 10 team comp, plus an elongated joint A1/A2 League Cup comp that has say 8 pool games, with big prize money and marketed prestige - replaces say the FA Cup and comes with an ACL qualifying spot. So again you get close to that 25-27 combined games in a regular season for all clubs. Plus finals & playoffs.

And as to the fairness of 10 teams just suddenly being demoted to an A2 division. Maybe it's done as the average of 3 years results (little complicated yes), with clubs having plenty of warning of the split, and time to prepare.

Again the format sounds similar to how Japan transistioned over time to 3 pro tiers. There is no rush for this to happen. You start with the NST and then when certain teams in that comp are ready they get elevated to the ALM. Again is no rush.
Unknown editor edited November 08, 2023 03:34
theprof
coochiee
theprof
that's kinda my point, if both leagues are gonna be the same, the what is the point of having promtion relegation?, you may as well have a 20 team league. If there is some financial drop in salary cap etc the promotion/relegation makes sense, but at that point splitting an existing league in half to create this scenario is hugely unfair on the teams relegated to create the second tier.

Because without pro/rel, by halfway through the season teams in the bottom half of a 20 team comp, will have squat to play for as the playoffs become quickly out of reach.

Pro/rel would add a whole different element, and no doubt produce some late season drama as with many leagues around the world. If there are no big financial penalties from dropping down to the A2 tier, then don't see any undue unfairness from being in the 2nd tier. Especially if A2 teams still get some opportunities to play A1 teams, keep traditional derby fixtures alive etc. 

As before that might as part of some preseason or even mid season Cup comp, where you group A1 & A2 teams in different pools (NSW pool, VIC pool etc) so derby rivals get to play each other. The MLS & Liga MX had their own mid season combined Cup comp this year

I agree with you on the dead rubber games. But from a league/club perspective when you have 20 teams in a league and you decide at some point to split the league into two 10 team leagues, you are literally creating two versions of what we had a few years back. ie a ten team league where you play each other 3 times instead of the normal home/away. Effectively your duplicating the problem you just solved by growing the league to 20 teams. 
Besides that, the bottom half of the league are not gonna be happy being used to create a second tier league if it is financially worse for them. And if it is just the same then you're running two identical leagues with some silly movement between them at the end of the season - it's ridiculous.

do you see what I mean? there has to be some reason to not want to be relogated, and it's usually the finacial hit you take from loss of tv/sponsor revenue. There also has to be some reward to being promoted, usually tv funding etc. If that doesnt exist ie the leaguea reb the same then there is just no point and you end up with the same meaningless games.

Disagree. There will be a prestige angle to playing in the A1. Plus you will be playing the better teams, who should have the better, higher drawcard players. The Grand Final will be between the 2 A1 teams that qualify. Maybe the A2 comp is just round robin with no final - 1st automatically promoted, teams 2nd-4th into pro/rel playoffs.

And yes sponsors will be more attracted to teams in the A1.

Seems some consensus that a 26 game round robin is about ideal. ie 2 rounds of a 14 team comp. Or 3 rounds of a 10 team comp (27 games).  

Or again it's 2 rounds of a 10 team comp, plus an elongated joint A1/A2 League Cup comp that has say 8 pool games, with big prize money and marketed prestige - replaces say the FA Cup and comes with an ACL qualifying spot. So again you get close to that 25-27 combined games in a regular season.

And as to the fairness of 10 teams just suddenly being demoted to an A2 division. Maybe it's done as the average of 3 years results (little complicated yes), with clubs having plenty of warning of the split, and time to prepare.

Again the format sounds similar to how Japan transistioned over time to 3 pro tiers. There is no rush for this to happen. You start with the NST and then when certain teams in that comp are ready they get elevated to the ALM. Again is no rush.
Unknown editor edited November 08, 2023 03:34
theprof
coochiee
theprof
that's kinda my point, if both leagues are gonna be the same, the what is the point of having promtion relegation?, you may as well have a 20 team league. If there is some financial drop in salary cap etc the promotion/relegation makes sense, but at that point splitting an existing league in half to create this scenario is hugely unfair on the teams relegated to create the second tier.

Because without pro/rel, by halfway through the season teams in the bottom half of a 20 team comp, will have squat to play for as the playoffs become quickly out of reach.

Pro/rel would add a whole different element, and no doubt produce some late season drama as with many leagues around the world. If there are no big financial penalties from dropping down to the A2 tier, then don't see any undue unfairness from being in the 2nd tier. Especially if A2 teams still get some opportunities to play A1 teams, keep traditional derby fixtures alive etc. 

As before that might as part of some preseason or even mid season Cup comp, where you group A1 & A2 teams in different pools (NSW pool, VIC pool etc) so derby rivals get to play each other. The MLS & Liga MX had their own mid season combined Cup comp this year

I agree with you on the dead rubber games. But from a league/club perspective when you have 20 teams in a league and you decide at some point to split the league into two 10 team leagues, you are literally creating two versions of what we had a few years back. ie a ten team league where you play each other 3 times instead of the normal home/away. Effectively your duplicating the problem you just solved by growing the league to 20 teams. 
Besides that, the bottom half of the league are not gonna be happy being used to create a second tier league if it is financially worse for them. And if it is just the same then you're running two identical leagues with some silly movement between them at the end of the season - it's ridiculous.

do you see what I mean? there has to be some reason to not want to be relogated, and it's usually the finacial hit you take from loss of tv/sponsor revenue. There also has to be some reward to being promoted, usually tv funding etc. If that doesnt exist ie the leaguea reb the same then there is just no point and you end up with the same meaningless games.

Disagree. There will be a prestige angle to playing in the A1. Plus you will be playing the better teams, who should have the better, higher drawcard players. The Grand Final will be between the 2 A1 teams that qualify. Maybe the A2 comp is just round robin with no final - 1st automatically promoted, teams 2nd-4th into pro/rel playoffs.

And yes sponsors will be more attracted to teams in the A1.

Seems some consensus that a 26 game round robin is about ideal. ie 2 rounds of a 14 team comp. Or 3 rounds of a 10 team comp (27 games).  

Or again it's 2 rounds of a 10 team comp, plus an elongated joint A1/A2 Cup comp that has say 8 pool games, with big prize and promoted prestige - replaces say FA Cup and comes with an ACL spot. So again you get close to that 25-27 games in a regular season.

And as to the fairness of 10 teams just suddenly being demoted to an A2 division. Maybe it's done as the average of 3 years results (little complicated yes), with clubs having plenty of warning of the split, and time to prepare.

Again the format sounds similar to how Japan transistioned over time to 3 pro tiers. There is no rush for this to happen. You start with the NST and then when certain teams in that comp are ready they get elevated to the ALM. Again is no rush.