I think another part of the environment that the team is in (A-league/NZ) has an effect on developing our talent due to the amount of games the club has scheduled to test the talent at a high enough level, though I'm not sure its the full picture or if its just the european football idea as I don't know how much football games south american teams play compared to A-league teams. If we had the chance to play more games and compete in confederation club comp ie (OCL) or another competition alongside the A-league then it would mean more games and more chances for our young talent to be used in games. All we have is the A-league season which is fewer games than european football teams but the quality seems arguably better per game amount, i can only point to it as it puts less strain on players.
Every single club in world football is a selling club bar maybe 2 or 3.
Three for me, and two for them.
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Every single club in world football is a selling club bar maybe 2 or 3.
And those ones are buying clubs
Oi Oi Edgecumbe... lets have a clean sheet
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This thread is solid evidence that the A-League off-season is too long.
I think we're all in dire need of some actual football.
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I think it's an excellent thread. Kudos for getting it under way JD
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My apologies, I didn't see this thread and started another.
If the moderators could delete the thread please. I'll paste my views into this one.
Cheers
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This is an interesting article. I personally think that it is a bit convenient to say this was always a plane when until last year we really never employed a coach with any intention of playing guys from our own academy. I do worry that the Phoenix seem to jump from one strategy to the next quite quickly, and it's unlikely we will be getting $1m fees every year.
It's also unclear as yet whether the club can execute this strategy while also being competitive on the pitch.
All I would say is if this is the long-term strategy, we are going to need more off field football nouse, because right from the top of the club to the bottom it needs to be aligned. Every coach has to know and understand that the job is to play players from the academy and I do wonder whether we can get coaches to buy into that when it may mean that on field performances suffer.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/football/a-league/11...
The latest piece of Nix in house Propaganda or some sense at last?
Okay, only recently has there been some good news about the future of the club, but it seems that it has taken an age for the owners to come to some realisation of the place of Wellington Phoenix in the football world. One can only wonder why it has taken so long.
Sure, there has been the recent pressure to get bums on seats, in general to increase the value of the 'product' as well as to reward the fans with entertaining football, and with the odd win... From my seat though, I see short sightedness and a failure to have a plan and culture that will take the club forward both in football and financially.
The short term signings of players and coaches are a big issue. The constant seeking of the bottom priced foreigner who might be the seasons saviour is risky in more ways than I wish to list.
I get the feeling that most of the A-League clubs believe they are destination clubs, only different from the major leagues of Europe in location, at the other end of the world. In looking for viable options, perhaps they should view some of the frequent Uefa champions league playing clubs in Holland and Portugal. The likes of PSV and Porto have business models that revolve around the development, exposure and sale of young talent. The Dutch clubs in particular, punch way above their weight in supporting and developing their countrie's players.
The Phoenix have at last had a wake up with Sarpreet Singh. So many others that could also have made good transfers have slipped through. Libby Cacace is on his last year. Others like McGarry and Would were not capitalised upon. This season Nix missed out on Gianni Stensness, a kid who had a great world cup and is now performing very well for the NZ U23's, as well as his new A-league club. The lad plays for NZ, but the one NZ A-league club that could have signed him and made money with a transfer later on, missed out.
The new Nix coach, someone with no pedigree whatsoever, and no history with the club or NZ, was apparently given a lot of power in the decision making processes with new players. In contrast to the spiel of Phillip Rollo's article, it seems like the same old merry go round to me.
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This is an interesting article. I personally think that it is a bit convenient to say this was always a plane when until last year we really never employed a coach with any intention of playing guys from our own academy. I do worry that the Phoenix seem to jump from one strategy to the next quite quickly, and it's unlikely we will be getting $1m fees every year.
It's also unclear as yet whether the club can execute this strategy while also being competitive on the pitch.
All I would say is if this is the long-term strategy, we are going to need more off field football nouse, because right from the top of the club to the bottom it needs to be aligned. Every coach has to know and understand that the job is to play players from the academy and I do wonder whether we can get coaches to buy into that when it may mean that on field performances suffer.
I agree and share some concerns. As wonderful as it is to have so much promising youth coming through I don't want to see the club become another CCM, developing youth and selling for sustainability while stripping the club of talent and performing poorly in the competition.
We have to also intend to actually compete and be in a position to win the competition not just develop players. While these goals aren't mutually exclusive too much of the latter seems to preclude the former. Youth teams don't win the league.
Youth teams don't win the league but one only needs to look at the last Uefa champions league to see that they can go a long way.
High quality youth players are good for a club, they provide energy, excitement and exposure.
The issue for the scouts and coaches is to see those few who do have potential and give them exposure, rather than getting the many because they are a cheap option.
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You could debate this strategy til the cows come home.
Scenario - Cacace has a great few months to start A League season. Come late December Nix, are right in finals mix. It's last year of Cacace's contract. An offer of Euros500k comes in from a lower table Serie A club.
What do the Nix do?
Good news is that Academy is working well (Sam Wilkinson sounds a great pickup as well), plenty of young Kiwis are getting a chance, and long term future of the club looks almost certain
Good news is that Academy is working well... There is little point in this if the right moves aren't in place at the club level.
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Welnix have made a huge commitment to the academy, the associated facilities and have employed top coaches. And they started doing so from day one.
This has clearly always been their intention.
I think it takes more than the establishment of an academy to get players to a point of being a valuable product in the big boys market.
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You could debate this strategy til the cows come home.
Scenario - Cacace has a great few months to start A League season. Come late December Nix, are right in finals mix. It's last year of Cacace's contract. An offer of Euros500k comes in from a lower table Serie A club.
What do the Nix do?
Good news is that Academy is working well (Sam Wilkinson sounds a great pickup as well), plenty of young Kiwis are getting a chance, and long term future of the club looks almost certain
Good news is that Academy is working well... There is little point in this if the right moves aren't in place at the club level.
You made a couple errors in your assertions, like Gianni, who was offered a deal and turned it down to try Europe.
Yes, Carcace's contract is running out, but that doesn't mean we have not tried to tie him down to something longer. Perhaps he has said no, I want to test myself out as a free agent in a years time, similar to what Barbs did at the end of last year??
I want a winning team, but I also want us to be a stepping stone.
Personally I'm glad we see ourselves as a club as now being a stepping stone, as opposed to being a pinnacle or desired end point.
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You made a couple errors in your assertions, like Gianni, who was offered a deal and turned it down to try Europe....
....
Actually no, that's not the case. It's simply the club spiel coming through Phillip Rollo. (I support both the Phoenix and the stuff coverage by the way.) It was the unproven Ufuk who scarpered those negotiations.
It's part of the issue of the club not having a culture of development of players. The 'strategy' is piecemeal at best.
It's one thing to have an academy and further refine identified talent, but most kids will come from outside Wellington, so are not living in familiar surrounds. These kids need support across the board when they are under the increased pressure of the A-League. A lot of the best talents in NZ don't want to come to the Phoenix. That's just the start.
As well, the players need game time and individual development. The likes of Rudan, and the apprentice Talay, are not the kind who communicate directly to develop individuals nor does the club have others to mentor/coach the young lads - the lads who are supposedly the financial future of the club.
I entirely agree with your sentiment of seeing the club as a "stepping stone". My only point is: it's easy to say the club has a new strategy, but this has to be detailed, communicated and upheld right across the entire player cycle.
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A-League minutes played by graduates of the Wellington Phoenix Football Academy
Liberato Cacace – 2870 and counting
Sarpreet Singh – 2641
Keegan Smith – 540
Logan Rogerson – 152
Ben Waine – 90 and counting
James McGarry – 15
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it's easy to say the club has a new strategy, but this has to be detailed, communicated and upheld right across the entire player cycle.
To who exactly? You? And?
E + R + O
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it's easy to say the club has a new strategy, but this has to be detailed, communicated and upheld right across the entire player cycle.
To who exactly? You? And?
To everyone in the club. It's a business. Getting everything and everyone aligned is crucial.
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You could debate this strategy til the cows come home.
Scenario - Cacace has a great few months to start A League season. Come late December Nix, are right in finals mix. It's last year of Cacace's contract. An offer of Euros500k comes in from a lower table Serie A club.
What do the Nix do?
Good news is that Academy is working well (Sam Wilkinson sounds a great pickup as well), plenty of young Kiwis are getting a chance, and long term future of the club looks almost certain
Good news is that Academy is working well... There is little point in this if the right moves aren't in place at the club level.
You made a couple errors in your assertions, like Gianni, who was offered a deal and turned it down to try Europe.
Yes, Carcace's contract is running out, but that doesn't mean we have not tried to tie him down to something longer. Perhaps he has said no, I want to test myself out as a free agent in a years time, similar to what Barbs did at the end of last year??
I want a winning team, but I also want us to be a stepping stone.
Personally I'm glad we see ourselves as a club as now being a stepping stone, as opposed to being a pinnacle or desired end point.
If our strategy is to be a selling club, why did we not sell Cacace this summer when he is on his last year of contract? This is what I men bout a consistent strategy top to bottom, he's our most valuable asset so why are we not cashing in?
Normo's coming home
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Which ex-players parent do we reckon Con is?
Sorry, no ex-players parent. Just interested in the development of football in New Zealand along with the Phoenix' place in that progression.
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there would be a tonne of money in the cap even after a import striker.
Throw it at cacece on a three year contract, then sell him on for a shark load more in a year or two
It's an absolute no brainer
Auckland will rise once more
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If our strategy is to be a selling club, why did we not sell Cacace this summer when he is on his last year of contract? This is what I men bout a consistent strategy top to bottom, he's our most valuable asset so why are we not cashing in?
[/quote]
Can't sell a player who doesn't want to go as Danny Mills proved!
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You could debate this strategy til the cows come home.
Scenario - Cacace has a great few months to start A League season. Come late December Nix, are right in finals mix. It's last year of Cacace's contract. An offer of Euros500k comes in from a lower table Serie A club.
What do the Nix do?
Good news is that Academy is working well (Sam Wilkinson sounds a great pickup as well), plenty of young Kiwis are getting a chance, and long term future of the club looks almost certain
Good news is that Academy is working well... There is little point in this if the right moves aren't in place at the club level.
You made a couple errors in your assertions, like Gianni, who was offered a deal and turned it down to try Europe.
Yes, Carcace's contract is running out, but that doesn't mean we have not tried to tie him down to something longer. Perhaps he has said no, I want to test myself out as a free agent in a years time, similar to what Barbs did at the end of last year??
I want a winning team, but I also want us to be a stepping stone.
Personally I'm glad we see ourselves as a club as now being a stepping stone, as opposed to being a pinnacle or desired end point.
If our strategy is to be a selling club, why did we not sell Cacace this summer when he is on his last year of contract? This is what I men bout a consistent strategy top to bottom, he's our most valuable asset so why are we not cashing in?
Cacace said he had offers but wanted to stay in wellington for the time being.
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This is an interesting article. I personally think that it is a bit convenient to say this was always a plane when until last year we really never employed a coach with any intention of playing guys from our own academy. I do worry that the Phoenix seem to jump from one strategy to the next quite quickly, and it's unlikely we will be getting $1m fees every year.
It's also unclear as yet whether the club can execute this strategy while also being competitive on the pitch.
All I would say is if this is the long-term strategy, we are going to need more off field football nouse, because right from the top of the club to the bottom it needs to be aligned. Every coach has to know and understand that the job is to play players from the academy and I do wonder whether we can get coaches to buy into that when it may mean that on field performances suffer.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/football/a-league/11...
The latest piece of Nix in house Propaganda or some sense at last?
Okay, only recently has there been some good news about the future of the club, but it seems that it has taken an age for the owners to come to some realisation of the place of Wellington Phoenix in the football world. One can only wonder why it has taken so long.
Sure, there has been the recent pressure to get bums on seats, in general to increase the value of the 'product' as well as to reward the fans with entertaining football, and with the odd win... From my seat though, I see short sightedness and a failure to have a plan and culture that will take the club forward both in football and financially.
The short term signings of players and coaches are a big issue. The constant seeking of the bottom priced foreigner who might be the seasons saviour is risky in more ways than I wish to list.
I get the feeling that most of the A-League clubs believe they are destination clubs, only different from the major leagues of Europe in location, at the other end of the world. In looking for viable options, perhaps they should view some of the frequent Uefa champions league playing clubs in Holland and Portugal. The likes of PSV and Porto have business models that revolve around the development, exposure and sale of young talent. The Dutch clubs in particular, punch way above their weight in supporting and developing their countrie's players.
The Phoenix have at last had a wake up with Sarpreet Singh. So many others that could also have made good transfers have slipped through. Libby Cacace is on his last year. Others like McGarry and Would were not capitalised upon. This season Nix missed out on Gianni Stensness, a kid who had a great world cup and is now performing very well for the NZ U23's, as well as his new A-league club. The lad plays for NZ, but the one NZ A-league club that could have signed him and made money with a transfer later on, missed out.
The new Nix coach, someone with no pedigree whatsoever, and no history with the club or NZ, was apparently given a lot of power in the decision making processes with new players. In contrast to the spiel of Phillip Rollo's article, it seems like the same old merry go round to me.
You mean Michael Woud? A guy who was never at the Phoenix that I recall.
Stensness went to try his luck in Europe. Talay was disappointed and said that was his choice, but because he choose to leave there would not be a spot available for him at the club, if his Euro trials didn't work out. No reason for Talay to tell fibs.
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A-League minutes played by graduates of the Wellington Phoenix Football Academy
Liberato Cacace – 2870 and counting
Sarpreet Singh – 2641
Keegan Smith – 540
Logan Rogerson – 152
Ben Waine – 90 and counting
James McGarry – 15
http://www.wpfa.org.nz/graduates/
Club lists a whole lot more players - though those older players seem to be the ones that played for the reserves before the academy as is was setup. Also, surprised they haven't claimed Rufer as he was trained at APFA which became WPFA. Wonder if club can use their tie-in with the Kenyon and Miyazawa, that brought Mata and Singh to the 'Nix, as a "Phoenix graduate" https://www.wpss.org.nz/legends
Anyway, its obvious great expense and effort has been placed in developing players. Possibly the short term focus of the licence had meant a shift in focus but Ernie was specifically signed with an eye on youth at the time.
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A-League minutes played by graduates of the Wellington Phoenix Football Academy
Liberato Cacace – 2870 and counting
Sarpreet Singh – 2641
Keegan Smith – 540
Logan Rogerson – 152
Ben Waine – 90 and counting
James McGarry – 15
http://www.wpfa.org.nz/graduates/
Club lists a whole lot more players - though those older players seem to be the ones that played for the reserves before the academy as is was setup. Also, surprised they haven't claimed Rufer as he was trained at APFA which became WPFA. Wonder if club can use their tie-in with the Kenyon and Miyazawa, that brought Mata and Singh to the 'Nix, as a "Phoenix graduate" https://www.wpss.org.nz/legends
Anyway, its obvious great expense and effort has been placed in developing players. Possibly the short term focus of the licence had meant a shift in focus but Ernie was specifically signed with an eye on youth at the time.
Mr Positive
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A-League minutes played by graduates of the Wellington Phoenix Football Academy
Liberato Cacace – 2870 and counting
Sarpreet Singh – 2641
Keegan Smith – 540
Logan Rogerson – 152
Ben Waine – 90 and counting
James McGarry – 15
http://www.wpfa.org.nz/graduates/
Club lists a whole lot more players - though those older players seem to be the ones that played for the reserves before the academy as is was setup. Also, surprised they haven't claimed Rufer as he was trained at APFA which became WPFA. Wonder if club can use their tie-in with the Kenyon and Miyazawa, that brought Mata and Singh to the 'Nix, as a "Phoenix graduate" https://www.wpss.org.nz/legends
Anyway, its obvious great expense and effort has been placed in developing players. Possibly the short term focus of the licence had meant a shift in focus but Ernie was specifically signed with an eye on youth at the time.
The club does list "a whole lot more players". The club is wrong.
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A-League minutes played by graduates of the Wellington Phoenix Football Academy
Liberato Cacace – 2870 and counting
Sarpreet Singh – 2641
Keegan Smith – 540
Logan Rogerson – 152
Ben Waine – 90 and counting
James McGarry – 15
http://www.wpfa.org.nz/graduates/
Club lists a whole lot more players - though those older players seem to be the ones that played for the reserves before the academy as is was setup. Also, surprised they haven't claimed Rufer as he was trained at APFA which became WPFA. Wonder if club can use their tie-in with the Kenyon and Miyazawa, that brought Mata and Singh to the 'Nix, as a "Phoenix graduate" https://www.wpss.org.nz/legends
Anyway, its obvious great expense and effort has been placed in developing players. Possibly the short term focus of the licence had meant a shift in focus but Ernie was specifically signed with an eye on youth at the time.
Tyler Boyd signed a professional contract with the Wellington Phoenix while registered to Melville United. At no stage was he in the Wellington Phoenix Football Academy.
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So everyone wants Wellington to be a development club and not a champ contender? I really don't like the wooden spoon and either would the crowds.
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if young don't ask and you don't offer more, you don't know
Did you think about that?
Auckland will rise once more
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if young don't ask and you don't offer more, you don't know
Did you think about that?
Did you think about that?
Valley FC til I die?
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How many exhibits would Xzibit exhibit if Xzibit could exhibit exhibits?
Did you think about that?
People like Coldplay and voted for the Nazis. You can't trust people.
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You made a couple errors in your assertions, like Gianni, who was offered a deal and turned it down to try Europe....
....
Actually no, that's not the case. It's simply the club spiel coming through Phillip Rollo. (I support both the Phoenix and the stuff coverage by the way.) It was the unproven Ufuk who scarpered those negotiations.
Source? Or it didn't happen
Ramming liberal dribble down your throat since 2009
This forum needs less angst and more Kate Bush threads
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Yeah, I don't understand how people have jumped to conclusions when the only info we have is Libby saying he had offers but wanted to stay in Wellington for another year.
For all we know negotiations are ongoing.
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Which ex-players parent do we reckon Con is?
Which ex-coach...
Can't be Rudan: a) not enough swearing, b) he's too busy screaming at Dura about the MVFC game right now.
Ramming liberal dribble down your throat since 2009
This forum needs less angst and more Kate Bush threads
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if young don't ask and you don't offer more, you don't know
Did you think about that?
Did you think about that?
I did think about that
and if you were a selling club, you would then sell
Did you think about that?
Auckland will rise once more
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The Phoenix wouldn't sell a young player with a future who wanted to be here. In the same way a number of players have gone to US colleges that the Phoenxi firmly believe would be A-League players. The Academy is about helping players and people and if the better option is a full scholarship at Harvard then the Phoenix aren't going to stand in the way.
Some of the absolute garbage written here makes me wonder if we support the same club.
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if young don't ask and you don't offer more, you don't know
Did you think about that?
Did you think about that?
I did think about that
and if you were a selling club, you would then sell
Did you think about that?
Valley FC til I die?
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