Why Did The Knights Struggle?

As anyone who followed the Knights knows, they were actually the form team of their last round with 3 wins, 3 draws and only one loss from those seven games. The loss was when the Knights were stuffed around entirely by the FFA, with only 9 regular players travelling to play league champs Melbourne.

I'll acknowledge the Auckland *fans*, those who did show up any day through thick and thin. You lot are legends and an example to fans anywhere, for any sport. The fact that you stuck beside a rubbish team is admirable and I'd hope that I and other Phoenix supporters would show the same loyalty were we put in the same situation. And I've had many good experiences with Auckland fans - I still fondly remember being Bloc 5 for a day when me, Bevan and Liz went up to see AWs v. New Caledonia, and I'd gladly have those Bloc 5 lads in the Fever Zone any day.

But I see absolutely no reason why I should acknowledge the Kingz/Knights for the success or existence of the Phoenix - a completely separate franchise with no formal connection. And the idea that we owe them any credit is ridiculous.

Don't get me wrong, there are mutual fans of course. I acknowledge your part in the success of the Phoenix - as a Phoenix supporter. Not as an Auckland supporter.

But the Auckland franchise has done nothing to help the Phoenix other than, by way of getting kicked out, provided space for a Wellington team. If anything, they did more harm than good by providing the FFA and the NZ general public with reason to not support professional football in New Zealand. And it's no secret that if the FFA did not have a sense of obligation towards the OFC after moving to Asia, the 8th spot in the league would have gone to Townsville.

Phoenix fans owe no acknowledge, credit, or obligation towards the Auckland franchise. Our success is our own. Any Kingz/Knights supporters who've been part of that success deserve acknowledgment as Phoenix supporters themselves.




That being said, I don't disagree with your second paragraph. Yes, support would drop here too, and I'd hate to think how patient the general public would be here. And perhaps with more success on the field, as well as better off-field factors, an Auckland team would have been as successful - perhaps even more. And the fact the Knights were so abysmal leads me to respect those few fans who did show up even more. We're lucky to have the off-field structures in place that are conducive to on-field success - GOOD recruiting, GOOD coaching, GOOD management - all stuff the Knights were missing. I sincerely hope that any future Auckland team in the A-League would put all that in place and be able to produce a product- off-field and on-field - that Auckland's football community deserves,

Nowhere? Or now here?

Robb, I suggest you have a chat with Chris Turner sometime.

Really Robb ?

So you're saying that if Chris Turner and Co hadn't started the Kingz in 1999 we'd be in the same place right now with the Phoenix ?

I'll just say I have my doubts.

I'm just struggling to see how encouraging the FFA to not have a team in NZ helped NZ have a team - which, through total failure, is exactly what Auckland did. All I can see is that through failing, Auckland allowed Wellington to get a chance, and I don't think that qualifies Auckland for any particular acknowledgment or credit towards the existence or success of the Phoenix.

I'll happily admit that I'm not that knowledgeable on the subject, having been a casual Wolves supporter in the NSL days an apathetic in A-League V1-2. So there is almost certainly factors I'm unaware of. I just don't see how the Auckland franchise willingly contributed anything positive towards the Phoenix, although I'm happy to be proven wrong.

If the Kingz hadn't established a presence in the NSL there would never have been a bid for an NZ A-League side.

If the Knights hadn't bid, then there wouldn't have been an NZ licence to fall over and end up here.

If the Kingz hadn't ecisted it's very unlikely the Phoenix would.

Can we agree that the fact the Knights/Kingz existed was pivotal in the Phoenix coming about, but apart from that, their troubled existance played no part in the success the Nix have had, on and off the field?

I don't actually see the point in arguing this - do the old Auckland franchise supporters want some sort of credit for the Nix/YF success? Can't we move on?

The original question on why the Auckland franchise failed is much more interesting, and the lessons there need to be learnt for the benefit of the Nix and any other teams New Zealand get in the A-League in the future.

I don't want 'credit' I'd just prefer that the contribution wasn't ignored.

This.

Welcome to the off-season.

It should also be noted that the Knights are'nt the only franchise that has had trouble.

Off topic but who was the keeper (Argentinian I think) that starred in an ad for knights or kingz where he catches a kitten and then drop kicks it (cue public outrage) but it was later changed to him handing it over to a bystander or something , he then got injured in his 1st game and never played again? I do drugs.

It was the Kings, season two.  Julio Cuello.

He did play more than one game, but he was kind of rubbish and couldn't force Chris Marsh out of the side.  Later went on to be a house painter and play for Hamilton Wanderers.

It was a dog rather than a cat, named Striker... was kind of a mascot that season.

Played 9 games by my records.

Newspedia?

Came back last year, kept in the NZFC for Manawatu.

Benchwarms for Three Kings now.

Marsh I assume, not Cuello.



Half of a project I did to keep records of every player contracted to an NZ side in Aus.  I was also trying to get appearances right, but I lost that side of it when my laptop got nicked.

Hoping JR might do it sometime for ultimate.
Hard News2010-04-07 13:56:34

Correct. No idea where Cuello is these days.

Marshy was a very good keeper, came from the deep south. Dino102010-04-07 16:24:55

Marsh played some impressive games last season for Manawatu. I heard Manawatu had the option of having him again this season buit they opted for Ross Nicholson instead

I know I would, getting painful right now supporting Plymouth Argyle.  Off to see them twice over the next few days so can give a report of Fallon if he plays.

Actually I think that the Knights also proved to many that Ricky could actually coach at a decent level.  Had he not come in I don't know that we would have him now at the Nix.

There were so many mistakes made that it would be difficult to list them all. i dont think the Knights failed because of any 1 or 2 reasons but a collection of a large number of reasons. Some of the Knights failings can be sourced back to many of the Kingz failings.

For example and this is just one of many, the kingz supporters club at the beginning of the second season right when there was some serious optimism and momentum were completely undone by how the Kit supplier handled the discount of supporters club shirts. This might seem like a minor issue but right when the supporters club were trying to find methods with which to make supporters club membership attractive and value for money the kit supplier went back on an earlier agreement to supply the supporters club with a decent discount on the kit prices. We ended up with virtually no attractive incentives to grow the size of the supporters club right at a critical time when we wanted to capitalize on the first seasons interest.

Thats just one relatively minor example of one of the many mistakes made. Many of the mistakes were things that many involved were making as part of the learning process. The mistakes were everywhere in all areas of the whole thing, both organization and support alike.

The really ugly truth is that crowd numbers will drop away when teams are losing and we were especially bad with that in Auckland. My own personal belief is that axing the Rufers at the end of the 2nd season was a major mistake. They needed to be allowed one more season to prove themselves and after they left the record of the Kingz and Kinghts was abysmal. The Rufers werent the best option but right when it all needed stability to allow the organization to grow they got chopped off at the knees. What followed was a succession of awful decisions which killed any chance of success with each screw up. A slow motion train wreck.

The Phoenix success has come about because of patience and stability and smart people both in the organization and among the supporters. Even at the beginning of this season there were people calling for Ricki's head but its clear to see what a little patience can do.

I do believe it would be possible for Auckland to get it right if given another chance and the Wellington model was followed but i dont know if we deserve another chance yet.

I personally think that if the A league is serious about expanding should look into the New Zealand market, namely Auckland for a team.

The only problem I have with that is the lack of depth in the NZ playing stock right now.  I have a feeling that the recruitment of kiwis would be along similar lines to the dieing days of the Kingz.  That being picking up any old kiwi playing in Auckland and give him a shirt (Tamiti Williams comes to mind here).
disco_mart2010-04-13 02:57:59

In the end I think that the problems with the Kingz/Knights were just growing pains for professional sport in NZ.  I know the Warriors and Breakers have had issues too and the NPC/Super 12/14 teams are financed by the NZRFU.

I would imagine that Australia had the same problems in the 70s and Europe earlier on.  The Kingz/Knights were just the most recent "Johnny Come Lately's".
disco_mart2010-04-13 03:01:12

If the possibility of a second A league team from New Zealand arose, then Auckland is the last place it should be. They had their attempt twice, and given that Christchurch rose to the task when given the opportunity to host an A league game, then a southern based team may be considered a better option.

I do believe the team was unbeaten when Shane Rufer was in charge. I think he had the best record of any of the coaches involved with an A-league or NSL side.

Its a stupid arguement to suggest 1 city over another deserves to have a team. Geographical location would have nil effect on the success or not of a 2nd NZ team.

I think too much is being made about the large crowd for the one Nix game played down in Christchurch. If they had their own team I really doubt they'd sustain large numbers at the games. That's not to say that the city should not one day have their own team, but I think many have got carried away with one game's turn out. I do think Auckland would have come up with a similar crowd had it been held there.

I agree with your second point - part of the reason FIFA is letting us play in Australia is the size of the game here, we might out grow their welcome!