ASB Premiership Professional?

Surprised that caber tossing is only 4th. It would be almost as popular as possum throwing here, maybe more so given the cold winters.

#anotherinjoke

#possumthrowing

Was always a fan of the pitchfork, hay bale toss myself..... (Hastings Highland Games)

Edit: It's called the Sheaf Toss, I'm reliably informed.

Yeah I agree that A-league franchises in each of Auckland and Christchurch with the ASB Prem as a feeder/development league for the A-league franchises is more logical and realistic than the whole ASB Prem going pro at once. I still think it could happen with pay TV propping it up along with investors because the general public will support football in NZ if the standard is good enough. But the quality and size of the player base here is too small just now so this is a long term incremental project. 

Joining the AFC is another important part of the jigsaw for club football here too because ASB Prem teams will get more games against pro opposition in the qualifying process than the current once a year CWC lotto ticket. It's that regular higher level exposure to pro opposition that raises standards over time.

Couldn't agree more. Keep the ASBP semi-pro "amateur", stay in the O League with the Club World Cup the glamour prize, and make sure Auckland has three teams in the ASBP to increase inter-city rivalry. Keep the Phoenix in the A League but have only the one NZ side playing in Australia. Focus on developing interest in the ASBP and O League.

In my opinion a second A League club based in Auckland will kill off the ASBP.

Tho the way its going , that'd be a mercy killing....

Would just like to add by two cents in as well and say I agree with those who advocate more NZ franchises in the A-League and keeping the national league semi-pro.

I just don't think New Zealand has the population / interest to run a professional league on its own. Therefore, additional franchises in Auckland and Christchurch surely have to be the way forward? The national league could then act as a feeder to that system for local players. But A-League franchises are only a good idea for NZ football if they're not completely stocked with imports. For sure, have a few quality imports but there needs to be an emphasis on recruiting Kiwis who are good enough. Who knows, some may even be tempted back from overseas if the opportunities are there?

If/when FIFA find out the rorts and go 'oh its semi-pro' then there is not longer a need for a pro team (because we have a 'semi-pro' league) and the Phoenix licence will get yanked.

Think you're being over dramatic here JV. I think everyone, even Fifa, knows the ASBP is semi pro for quite a number of players. They may hold down day jobs or train youth teams but they also get paid to play. That cuts right across the board. There are plenty of players in the O League in a similar position. Hasn't a lot of money been spent on Dragon in Tahiti? I understand Amicale has signed up three Serbian players - I don't suppose they're doing it for food handouts.

I just don't think there is enough interest/funding in NZ for more than one A League side and a national league. A second A League side would suck up too much oxygen and end the ASBP, even with the O League.

Bluemagic - I don't think that JV is being over dramatic at all.  In fact, he holds similar views to me.   I get a bit annoyed when posters start publically going on about players being paid.   There are huge ramifications that could come into effect - the Phoenix, the IRD, the gaming trusts do not want to read this sort of BS.   So, some players get paid to "coach" (some of them actually do) - big deal.   It's life.   

The ASB league is essentially an amateur league - write it out 100 times and you may get the hang of it.

Not overly dramatic, just stating the facts. As JV correctly observed, whether we like it or not, or want to admit it or not, player payments of any sort in the ASBP are a violation of the competition rules.

However they are the facts, Players get paid in the ASB prem. And some more facts here are the teams only cry poor because of it.

Each ASB team has a major sponsor - The league has a major sponsor - The grounds have sponsors's - They get money from the sports trust and received money If a team makes it to the CWC- there is also other funds coming through from other sources (pokie+youth etc). 

It all falls back on governing, There's already a amateur league in this country that fight it out for the "Chatham Cup". 

Hello,

Just to inject a few more factoids into this discussion, on questions of demarcating between professional and amateur, Clause 2 of the National League Amateur Player Agreement - which is the only contract NZF recognises - states: "The Player is a volunteer and not an employee of the NL Entity."

However you can legally reimburse a volunteer.

A further clause states that the club shall reimburse the player for expenses that he effectively incurs during the term of this contract - though all monies reimbursed to the player attract a withholding tax of 20 per cent, paid on the players behalf, to the Inland Revenue Department.

In its final clause, the standard agreement then says the parties can "agree to such further terms as may be attached to this Agreement."

So while the league is amateur, and the player is NOT an employee, scope still exists within the official league framework to look after players without any suggestion that the amateur status of the league or player is in any way affected.

Fifa regs say a Professional is "a player who has a written contract with a club and is paid more than the expenses he effectively incurs in return for his footballing activity. All other players are considered as Amateurs."

However Fifa also notes an allowance for "wages lost" may also be considered for amateur players without that undermining their amateur status.

So there is plenty of wriggle room

Wages lost is an interesting one that I never knew about. 

How would that be calculated or interpreted? I imagine a narrow scope where say travelling to the club World Cup or any competition affects the players current employment, so participating in the competition costs them wages  (or annual leave) so they can be reimbursed for that. 

I don't think it should be a wide scope where it means you can pay players for their time as you wish because they COULD be spending that time working. 

Ultimately a player's status is determined by NZ Football, under NZF Regulation 5, (though players have a right of appeal.)

And they have determined everyone in the ASB is an amateur. End of story, I guess.

As I was saying...

Good posts Bruce. Facts rather than conjecture.

It isn't really all that different from what people have been saying though. The league is still amateur. They still can't be paid by the franchise to play football. 

Personally, I'm with Aces. I couldn't care less about the Phoenix. I think we should be concentrating on the ASBPrem rather than putting all our eggs in one yellow and black basket... However long it takes, Another A-League team would be stupid.

I think everyone can agree that the local game in NZ is miles away from being able to sustain a fully professional league, and that OFC in general needs more pro football if it's to advance, so what about a franchise based Oceania professional league as a very long term goal? 3 or 4 teams from NZ then the rest from a combination of the likes of Fiji, New Caledonia, Tahiti, PNG, etc up to a total of say 10 sides. Limits on non-OFC players. Entry to the CWC for the winner. Maybe have the franchise sides compete in a pan-OFC knockout cup with the best teams from each country as well to keep up engagement with the non-represented places like Samoa etc. Obvious problems include costs and distances travelled - I'm not sure about flights between some of those island nations. 

This is just an idea and I've got no doubt that plenty of people will jump to point out flaws in it but I'll be the first to admit I don't know much about the state of domestic football in Oceania. Would there be enough support in the islands for it? Would it be sustainable? Are there political reasons why it couldn't happen? I'm thinking 10 or 15 years down the track here at least...

The island teams in some countries would bankrupt pretty quick especially when you consider with 4 NZ teams, a team from the Solomons would incur $2k per player per game to NZ just to fly

I think it's a possibility. The distances are no worse than the A League. I think it should be on the basis of one side per island nation - one for Fiji, one for Tahiti etc. NZ could have two based in Auckland or one Auckland and one say Christchurch. If you did that you could set up a semi-pro eight team O League, each playing home and away. It would need some serious investment but maybe Fifa would come to the table. The prize would be the Club World Cup for the winner.

Whether it would attract enough interest/investment I don't know. But currently you're splitting everything between domestic national leagues and a truncated O League. 

Unsustainable, not enough avenues for sufficient income to make it work. Gate revenue would be miniscule (majority of Island fans have little disposable income), don't think you'll get kiwi crowds either. It hasn't been able to be made a success with pacific rugby so cant see it working with football, although generally the rugby nations arent the strongest football nations in ofc

I was thinking about this when we were all sure the nix were being kicked out.

I thought you could look at the destinations that have direct flights from NZ. 

So it would be 3 teams from NZ,  (4.5 million people)

a team from Fiji (750k people)

a team from Tahiti/French Polynesia, (250k people)

a team from New Caledonia (250k people)

and a team from Hawaii.  (1 million people)

You could also have an OFC 11 from the remaining OFC nations and base them in Auckland.

That's 8 teams, although four of them are based in NZ you could add another NZ Team (either from one of the regional cities or a second Auckland team) and a second Hawaii team to bring it up to a ten team league.

The way I see it, Fiji has the population to support a pro team even if they don't have the money. It will be the only pro team in a country that is clearly very talented.

New Caledona and French Polynesia don't really have the population but they have quite a high standard of living and the connection to France. This will also be the only pro sports team in the respective countries

NZ has the population and money (relative to the rest, we will have the largest ratio of teams per capita but also the only country with competing professional sports franchises) 

Hawaii has the population and money and as far as I can tell no competing professional sports teams.

Even though Hawaii is clearly not in our confederation there could be some dispensation as they don't have any pro teams, and geographically they are OFC if not politically.

Air New Zealand flies between all of these destinations, and most of them can reach each other with their respective national carrier. Half the games would be played in NZ anyway.

You could add Solomans, PNG, etc. as they all have (relatively) large populations but the logistics would be bad, you'd have to look at conferences then. You could also add in Vanuatu (250k), Samoa (150k) and Tonga (100k) but they have small populations which are also low income.

Anyway pipe dreams, but a fun experiment.

some good thoughts there mate

tahiti has a professional league, although i imagine the wages aren't the best.

fiji, tahiti, vanuatu, png and new caledonia could all conjur up a decent pro side

politics in such a league could be a a real shark though. you'd maybe have to keep it away from OFC

FIFA will never allow that travesty

Well it's clearly entirely hypothetical. No one is going to try and make that happen.

But it's an exercise in the possibilities, if the Phoenix left the A-League and OFC wanted a professional league how might it look?