and that's the reason they get a great crowd. They've played good football for some time. Fans could expect a challenge and a bit of enterprise .
Football Ferns
Hyslop's article actually calls for senior players to go on strike and for staff to revolt.
Any action, from any stakeholder in the game, can't be simply over a new coach having a differing coaching style or formation. It has to be based on failure to implement the Board approved NZF strategic plan, and/or failure to build consensus of direction with key stakeholders (Federation coaches, national coaches, national team players).
If you're speaking truth to power, maybe Hyslop's approach is a legitimate course of action; but how many staff or players will be willing to collectively take such action? And how easy (hard) would that be given logistical and geographical realities?
Alternatively, if you're in a position of power, strike action can achieve a result. The Real Madrid dressing room has power; but NZF and Fed staff and WNT, U20 and U17 teams?
I'm sure there will be more written in the next few days, but I think key stakeholders (including football media) need to reach out to Board members to have any hope of meaningful change.
I wouldn't put it past Declan Edge to get his kids to turn down call-ups.
So if any Ole players get chosen for a NZ aged grade team which would no doubt be a dream for most Ole kids, Declan Edge is going to stand over them and make them reject selection? Surley not that would be heart breaking for any kid.
Theres another thing I cant get my head around.
The defensive approach to the game was taken because apparently we werent good enough to compete with Japan and that we didnt have good enough players.
There have been massive strides forward in the womens game in the last decade or so. I forget the numbers but before John Herdman was in charge our womens team had gone 19 years without scoring a goal against a non Oceania side and 16 years without having scored a result (they drew with some team I forget) against a non Oceania side.
I remember the womens team playing the USA in the US a few years ago (4 or 5? 2013?) and they came desperately close to pulling off an upset in front of a huge crowd, only giving up the lead in injury time (from an awful ref error). I think at the time the USA were ranked #1. We also drew with Japan in Japan that year. The last couple of years we have stalled a bit but there was a period of 3 or 4 years where the team ( with many players still current) scored really great results in games from the Cyprus cup to friendlies. We even held a ranking at one point of 13 from memory. I think we beat Brazil a few years ago as well as China?
Again many of the players involved in those results are still around the current squad so how come this coach thinks they cant compete?
didn't do basic research - yes we've never beaten Japan, but our last 4 games against them have been 2015 0-1, 2014 1-2, 2013 1-1, 2011, 1-2! We beat Brazil 1-0 in Brazil in 2015 the last big loss we had was 11-0 v North Korea in 2004 or 147 games ago. At the time North Korea were ranked 2nd or 3rd and we only had caretaker coaches - things have changed a bit in the last 14 years
So if any Ole players get chosen for a NZ aged grade team which would no doubt be a dream for most Ole kids, Declan Edge is going to stand over them and make them reject selection? Surley not that would be heart breaking for any kid.
If he thought it was going to actively harm their development as players? Yes. Declan being Declan he would probably frame it as "you're either with Ole or you're with Heraf."
I personally know a player who went to an age-group camp in the last school holidays who called it the worst football experience of their life. I don't know if this player is going to accept future invitations/call-ups, but I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't.
Not entirely convinced Buckingham, Figuera, Turnbull and Birnie are all planning on limiting their career options by suddenly putting 9 players in their own penalty box for 90 minutes.
Pretty sure they have a few ideas about smart ways defend when needed without losing all attacking intent.
I haven't read all the posts here, but was at the game yesterday, but the ferns were beyond pathetic. I simply could not believe the rubbish unfolding in front of me, I couldn't believe we had bought tickets to watch this complete rubbish. What the hell is going on, I could have put a college girls team out to do a better job.
There is a good way to play defensive football, and defensive football isn't automatically "wrong", but this was just baaaad.
Yeah, I think this is the key point here. There's nothing wrong with playing a defensive style, but the problem with yesterday was that the team clearly didn't know how to park the bus, the counterattacking was non-existent, and we were reduced to trying to win corners/set pieces to create scoring opportunities when in their half rather than trying to construct them in a structured way (even through counterattacking). And to cap it all off, Heraf then publically throws the players under the bus straight after the game, when he himself set them up to fail by not allowing them to play a style that they're more comfortable with/better suited to.
And the question then is - why would you want to play for a guy who basically thinks and says that you're shark, and who isn't prepared to work with you to come up with a system/structure that suits the players' and team's abilities better?
and that's the reason they get a great crowd. They've played good football for some time. Fans could expect a challenge and a bit of enterprise .
The widespread unified criticism of Heraf is completely justified.
Is real pity that now that they can fly business class, and so undoubtedly be better prepared, they have been lumbered with this awful coaching style.
Also big kudos to the Wellington football community turning up, and creating record crowd for Football Ferns game in NZ. They deserved better.
However as a little foot note, the FF have been disappointing for a year or two now, at least performance wise. They barely fired a shot at 2016 Olympics - only beating Colombia 1-0.
Of course having Heraf as coach, could lead to a real downward spiral in performance - but just don't think FF group are as talented as some may think. They must just about have softest qualifying path to major tourneys in world football. Oceania qualifying 2015 WC, was 3 games GF 30 & GA 0.
That of course is beyond their control, but being brutally honest the depth in women's football is a lot weaker than in the men's game - esp true for Oceania. Many poorer countries almost completely ignore resourcing sport for women.
Is great that so many of FF now have overseas contracts, and the FFDP seems to be working - but just seems FF have been stagnating for couple of years (I think Readings acknowledged as much when he resigned after 6 years as coach) - well before Heraf turned up.
But yes at least they need to be set up to try to win within their talent limitations, not just trying to keep the score down.
Based on his comments the board should atleast call him in for a please explain.
Whilst I don't think he can be fired, they should certainly start asking him the question, do you still think you are the right person to carry NZF forward... effectively ask him to resign. If he doesn't then start building a case against him.
Yesterday we played to lose, just not by too much and you can't have a coach celbrate that mindset, yet along the countrie technical director.
I hope Piney or similar ask NZF to please explain his comments.
Martin is in Russia and likely wont have seen the game....yet. Most likely his phone has gone hot and he will now probably watch it, but because he has no background in football, he won't be able to assess it for himself nor be able to see through any of Herafs lines.
The board are unlikely to get involved in operational matters because then you have a problem attracting a CEO if all they ever get is a board that meddles in what he does. CEOs need to be allowed to do their thing working within the boards outlined framework but then be accountantable if there are no results. Someone will ask the question of Martin and if Heraf goes tits up, and Martin fails to address that, then thats when Martins position becomes an issue.
Maybe Heraf is just the master charming con job interviewee?
Weren't we told that the FF's squad after Thailand games (when he was temp coach in November last year) were canvassed for their views and they all universally backed Heraf to become the permanent coach?
Also Erceg was definitely sucked in by Heraf initially. On her reasons on coming back from retirement in February -
"I've met with Andreas a couple of times and we've had some really good discussions. I like what he's about, I like his philosophies and I think that he's good for the environment."
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/football/nz-teams/10...
So maybe people are initially blinded by Heraf's experience, charm or whatever - before truth unfolds.
There is a good way to play defensive football, and defensive football isn't automatically "wrong", but this was just baaaad.
Yeah, I think this is the key point here. There's nothing wrong with playing a defensive style, but the problem with yesterday was that the team clearly didn't know how to park the bus, the counterattacking was non-existent, and we were reduced to trying to win corners/set pieces to create scoring opportunities when in their half rather than trying to construct them in a structured way (even through counterattacking). And to cap it all off, Heraf then publically throws the players under the bus straight after the game, when he himself set them up to fail by not allowing them to play a style that they're more comfortable with/better suited to.
And the question then is - why would you want to play for a guy who basically thinks and says that you're shark, and who isn't prepared to work with you to come up with a system/structure that suits the players' and team's abilities better?
Who's this Dwayne dude? Whoever he is, I assume he's never seen Atletico play and he was hoping you hadn't either :-)
and that's the reason they get a great crowd. They've played good football for some time. Fans could expect a challenge and a bit of enterprise .
The widespread unified criticism of Heraf is completely justified.
Is real pity that now that they can fly business class, and so undoubtedly be better prepared, they have been lumbered with this awful coaching style.
Also big kudos to the Wellington football community turning up, and creating record crowd for Football Ferns game in NZ. They deserved better.
However as a little foot note, the FF have been disappointing for a year or two now, at least performance wise. They barely fired a shot at 2016 Olympics - only beating Colombia 1-0.
Of course having Heraf as coach, could lead to a real downward spiral in performance - but just don't think FF group are as talented as some may think. They must just about have softest qualifying path to major tourneys in world football. Oceania qualifying 2015 WC, was 3 games GF 30 & GA 0.
That of course is beyond their control, but being brutally honest the depth in women's football is a lot weaker than in the men's game - esp true for Oceania. Many poorer countries almost completely ignore resourcing sport for women.
Is great that so many of FF now have overseas contracts, and the FFDP seems to be working - but just seems FF have been stagnating for couple of years (I think Readings acknowledged as much when he resigned after 6 years as coach) - well before Heraf turned up.
But yes at least they need to be set up to try to win within their talent limitations, not just trying to keep the score down.
Fair comment, but this 'stagnation' has occurred with the FF being established at a good level in the game, not at the depths that Heraf would have us believe. Furthermore, the overall pattern over the last 15 years has been one of improvement and forward momentum.
Based on his comments the board should atleast call him in for a please explain.
Whilst I don't think he can be fired, they should certainly start asking him the question, do you still think you are the right person to carry NZF forward... effectively ask him to resign. If he doesn't then start building a case against him.
Yesterday we played to lose, just not by too much and you can't have a coach celbrate that mindset, yet along the countrie technical director.
I hope Piney or similar ask NZF to please explain his comments.
Martin is in Russia and likely wont have seen the game....yet. Most likely his phone has gone hot and he will now probably watch it, but because he has no background in football, he won't be able to assess it for himself nor be able to see through any of Herafs lines.
The board are unlikely to get involved in operational matters because then you have a problem attracting a CEO if all they ever get is a board that meddles in what he does. CEOs need to be allowed to do their thing working within the boards outlined framework but then be accountantable if there are no results. Someone will ask the question of Martin and if Heraf goes tits up, and Martin fails to address that, then thats when Martins position becomes an issue.
the board used to get involved when Frank van Hattum was the chair..........but I suppose that's why we went through so many CEOs
It is Martin's job as CEO to ensure the strategic plan of NZF is implemented.
If the strategic plan mentions continued WOF implementation and Martin knowingly appoints a national TD who is unwilling or incapable of enacting that, then the Board has every right to take action.
I totally get your sentiment but this is a business and business rules of employment etc get followed. The board wont do anything about Heraf - they'll tell Martin to get him into line because that's his job and if he doesn't, they threaten Martins' job. If he doesn't sort out Heraf, they fire Martin, a new CEO is bought in and it will be spelt out to him what is expected. The new CEO then sorts out Heraf.
That's largely how it should work. The problem is - does anyone have faith in Martin to sort it out? That for me, is the key question and I wonder if it gets to that stage where the board are giving Martin the bums rush, if he has the brains or the balls to make the right call.
Based on his comments the board should atleast call him in for a please explain.
Whilst I don't think he can be fired, they should certainly start asking him the question, do you still think you are the right person to carry NZF forward... effectively ask him to resign. If he doesn't then start building a case against him.
Yesterday we played to lose, just not by too much and you can't have a coach celbrate that mindset, yet along the countrie technical director.
I hope Piney or similar ask NZF to please explain his comments.
Martin is in Russia and likely wont have seen the game....yet. Most likely his phone has gone hot and he will now probably watch it, but because he has no background in football, he won't be able to assess it for himself nor be able to see through any of Herafs lines.
The board are unlikely to get involved in operational matters because then you have a problem attracting a CEO if all they ever get is a board that meddles in what he does. CEOs need to be allowed to do their thing working within the boards outlined framework but then be accountantable if there are no results. Someone will ask the question of Martin and if Heraf goes tits up, and Martin fails to address that, then thats when Martins position becomes an issue.
Maybe Heraf is just the master charming con job interviewee?
Weren't we told that the FF's squad after Thailand games (when he was temp coach in November last year) were canvassed for their views and they all universally backed Heraf to become the permanent coach?
Also Erceg was definitely sucked in by Heraf initially. On her reasons on coming back from retirement in February -
"I've met with Andreas a couple of times and we've had some really good discussions. I like what he's about, I like his philosophies and I think that he's good for the environment."
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/football/nz-teams/10...
So maybe people are initially blinded by Heraf's experience, charm or whatever - before truth unfolds.
Katie giving her thoughts:
There is a good way to play defensive football, and defensive football isn't automatically "wrong", but this was just baaaad.
Yeah, I think this is the key point here. There's nothing wrong with playing a defensive style, but the problem with yesterday was that the team clearly didn't know how to park the bus, the counterattacking was non-existent, and we were reduced to trying to win corners/set pieces to create scoring opportunities when in their half rather than trying to construct them in a structured way (even through counterattacking). And to cap it all off, Heraf then publically throws the players under the bus straight after the game, when he himself set them up to fail by not allowing them to play a style that they're more comfortable with/better suited to.
And the question then is - why would you want to play for a guy who basically thinks and says that you're shark, and who isn't prepared to work with you to come up with a system/structure that suits the players' and team's abilities better?
Who's this Dwayne dude? Whoever he is, I assume he's never seen Atletico play and he was hoping you hadn't either :-)
I go back to the fact that Martin wont have seen the game because he is in Russia and also knows nothing about the game and how it is played (he is a rugby man) so who tells him from within his circle that this was crap when others are spouting Athletico?
If the board go at Martin for this, all he can say is 'Well others tell me thats how Athletico play so whats wrong?
I'm not saying this is right, I'm saying this is how it could conceivably unfold and thats where the massive problem is. Who is going to be the person within the office that sticks their neck out and says to Martin 'Well actually....' cause I doubt many/any will.
Abby Erceg statement on Instagram
Alright,
I’ll say this once and I’ll say it well: These girls mean everything to
me. I’ve grown up with them and probably spent more time with them than
my own family. This shirt and that fern represent what it means to be a
kiwi, the mindset and the attitude, the qualities and essence of being a
NZer all rest in the stitching of that shirt. When I put it on, that’s
what I want to represent along with the millions of people behind it and
the blood sweat and tears that went into earning it. To put it on for
any lesser reason is a disservice to the girls, to my country and to
myself. I want to play to win, every time, coming onto that field
swinging punches, kicking and screaming if I have to before I concede
anything. I’d rather lose by one saying “we fudgeing went for it” than
cowering in a corner. That’s my mindset, and if you tell me I can’t do
that, then I can no longer represent that shirt with pride or conviction
but I will always stick up for those girls. That’s the least I can do
for them... @nzfootballferns
Katie giving her thoughts:
That's my coach, she is so cool :D (She actually asked us to make sure we keep her accountable and not to swallow crazy Heraf-like decisions.)
There is a good way to play defensive football, and defensive football isn't automatically "wrong", but this was just baaaad.
Yeah, I think this is the key point here. There's nothing wrong with playing a defensive style, but the problem with yesterday was that the team clearly didn't know how to park the bus, the counterattacking was non-existent, and we were reduced to trying to win corners/set pieces to create scoring opportunities when in their half rather than trying to construct them in a structured way (even through counterattacking). And to cap it all off, Heraf then publically throws the players under the bus straight after the game, when he himself set them up to fail by not allowing them to play a style that they're more comfortable with/better suited to.
And the question then is - why would you want to play for a guy who basically thinks and says that you're shark, and who isn't prepared to work with you to come up with a system/structure that suits the players' and team's abilities better?
Who's this Dwayne dude? Whoever he is, I assume he's never seen Atletico play and he was hoping you hadn't either :-)
It’s almost impressive how much damage one game and a press conference has done.
Plus the fact that this guy is in charge of every national team, has appointed himself to this job, has appointed his mate as All Whites coach, and there are stories flying round about the nature of the tactics he is imposing on junior teams. So it's not just the ferns that are potentially affected.
There is a good way to play defensive football, and defensive football isn't automatically "wrong", but this was just baaaad.
Yeah, I think this is the key point here. There's nothing wrong with playing a defensive style, but the problem with yesterday was that the team clearly didn't know how to park the bus, the counterattacking was non-existent, and we were reduced to trying to win corners/set pieces to create scoring opportunities when in their half rather than trying to construct them in a structured way (even through counterattacking). And to cap it all off, Heraf then publically throws the players under the bus straight after the game, when he himself set them up to fail by not allowing them to play a style that they're more comfortable with/better suited to.
And the question then is - why would you want to play for a guy who basically thinks and says that you're shark, and who isn't prepared to work with you to come up with a system/structure that suits the players' and team's abilities better?
I'd be interested in seeing this reply, if you wouldn't mind sharing - [email protected].
Abby Erceg statement on Instagram
Alright, I’ll say this once and I’ll say it well: These girls mean everything to me. I’ve grown up with them and probably spent more time with them than my own family. This shirt and that fern represent what it means to be a kiwi, the mindset and the attitude, the qualities and essence of being a NZer all rest in the stitching of that shirt. When I put it on, that’s what I want to represent along with the millions of people behind it and the blood sweat and tears that went into earning it. To put it on for any lesser reason is a disservice to the girls, to my country and to myself. I want to play to win, every time, coming onto that field swinging punches, kicking and screaming if I have to before I concede anything. I’d rather lose by one saying “we fudgeing went for it” than cowering in a corner. That’s my mindset, and if you tell me I can’t do that, then I can no longer represent that shirt with pride or conviction but I will always stick up for those girls. That’s the least I can do for them... @nzfootballferns
I would like to see a whole team with her attitude. She wants to be number one and a winner and I have total respect for that. The Nix too, should be adopting that attitude. 6th is not good enough. The Ferns would probably have loved to have been let off the chain to really have a crack at Japan.
Abby Erceg statement on Instagram
Alright, I’ll say this once and I’ll say it well: These girls mean everything to me. I’ve grown up with them and probably spent more time with them than my own family. This shirt and that fern represent what it means to be a kiwi, the mindset and the attitude, the qualities and essence of being a NZer all rest in the stitching of that shirt. When I put it on, that’s what I want to represent along with the millions of people behind it and the blood sweat and tears that went into earning it. To put it on for any lesser reason is a disservice to the girls, to my country and to myself. I want to play to win, every time, coming onto that field swinging punches, kicking and screaming if I have to before I concede anything. I’d rather lose by one saying “we fudgeing went for it” than cowering in a corner. That’s my mindset, and if you tell me I can’t do that, then I can no longer represent that shirt with pride or conviction but I will always stick up for those girls. That’s the least I can do for them... @nzfootballferns
Abby for NZF CE!!!
#MartinOut
So if any Ole players get chosen for a NZ aged grade team which would no doubt be a dream for most Ole kids
I don't think you understand Ole, or the kids in it, one bit.
Tell me about it then?
Was this a waste of NZF funds?.
Ricki Herbert is bang on here
"Herbert, who coached New Zealand to their second appearance at a World Cup in 2010, also questioned the lack of Kiwis in the top coaching jobs, or at least foreign coaches who have made a commitment to staying here long-term, such as Spaniard Ramon Tribulietx, who has coached at Auckland City for a decade.
"Why haven't we got more people involved from a New Zealand point of view? It staggers me that it just never comes into the equation.
"Yeah, Ramon doesn't have his licences, I understand that, but you kind of think if you're going to build something over time, it's not going to be with people that are just going to come and go.
"How much worse can it be? I'm the only Kiwi ever to take a national team in the history of our game and we brought in 20 million dollars or whatever it was to the game. We had a fantastic World Cup run and a disappointing run [in 2013].
"But what's the danger? What's the worst-case scenario? We don't qualify again? Well, we didn't qualify last time and we spent a lot of money based on a lot of promises."
No offence, but RH is not one who should be jumping in on someone for negative, take-no-chances coaching
No offence, but RH is not one who should be jumping in on someone for negative, take-no-chances coaching
why not?, yes he was a defensive coach, but got NZ to the World Cup and survived unbeaten, got the Phoenix to the finals a couple of times - shows you can go out with a defensive mind set and still achieve results - Heraf could learn something from him.
Tell me about it then?
It's a pretty all-in or all-out kind of place. Declan has a playing and player development philosophy and if the players are going to do anything outside of Ole then it has to at least somewhat square with that. The kids and parents there are pretty devoted and put a lot of faith in him (I think for good reason).
No offence, but RH is not one who should be jumping in on someone for negative, take-no-chances coaching
wgot the Phoenix to the finals a couple of times
Three times :-)
No offence, but RH is not one who should be jumping in on someone for negative, take-no-chances coaching
Herbert's teams often made you question what 'defensive' was. They were deep and played long, but also got numbers forward and the Phoenix topped the 'balls into the box' stat many times. We drew 3-3 with Italy FFS
No offence, but RH is not one who should be jumping in on someone for negative, take-no-chances coaching
Herbert's teams often made you question what 'defensive' was. They were deep and played long, but also got numbers forward and the Phoenix topped the 'balls into the box' stat many times. We drew 3-3 with Italy FFS
Lost 4-3.
I'll stop being pedantic now.
No offence, but RH is not one who should be jumping in on someone for negative, take-no-chances coaching
Herbert's teams often made you question what 'defensive' was. They were deep and played long, but also got numbers forward and the Phoenix topped the 'balls into the box' stat many times. We drew 3-3 with Italy FFS
Lost 4-3.
I'll stop being pedantic now.
beat me to it :-)
In fact one of the problems with the Nix in the first two seasons was probably being naively attacking. Herbert has always been a pretty pragmatic coach, but never overly-defensive. We can dispute how much of the tactics really were Herbert's but the 2010 All Whites were built to win games with the squad's limitations in mind, by Heraf's own admission he never considered winning against Japan.
No offence, but RH is not one who should be jumping in on someone for negative, take-no-chances coaching
I disagree, he was certainly at the more defensive, but it was with a plan (at least through the first WC cycle). He always looked to defend in numbers BUT leave big men up top in the channels the ball was likely to be cleared to bring it down and look to launch a counter, and a clear idea of what to do with the ball when in possession - not just lump and hope.
If you compare that to how they played under Hudson, and with the Ferns on Sunday, that plan in what to do in possession was just not there.
No offence, but RH is not one who should be jumping in on someone for negative, take-no-chances coaching
why not?, yes he was a defensive coach, but got NZ to the World Cup and survived unbeaten, got the Phoenix to the finals a couple of times - shows you can go out with a defensive mind set and still achieve results - Heraf could learn something from him.
Yes agree, Herbert achieved some remarkable results from limited teams.
But RH needs reminding when trumpeting his CV, that he only had to beat Bahrain over 2 legs to make that $20M or whatever for NZ Football.
The easiest World Cup qualifying path for any AWs coach (foreign or NZ bred) has had since............................ever.
The Hudson coached full strength AWs from last year, would have beaten the Bahrainis also. The Socceroos who finished 5th in Asia, probably not.
In fact don't see great difference between how either coach set up the AWs for their various WC playoffs (2009 vs 2017). Herbert just had a far far easier opponent, but maybe a slightly less talented side (debatable).
We're reach the point of the new cycle where we ask someone from 1982.
Siggy's take in 3...2...1...
Siggy's take in 3...2...1...
was on Piney's Radio Sport show today