Kiwis overseas eligible to play in 2012 olympics

Another update with the release of Built from northampton, Windust from Waldgirmes and Doris from Hibernians. Also Vujevich is unattached after Gold coast folded. There is the addition of Central coast mariners player

kwabena appiah and Cooper who signed with Newcastle. We can notice in this list 4 promising right backs an area of weakness for the AW'S: Traunmuller, Roux, Graham and Esteves who switched recently to Seattle Sounders U23 team

 Jake Gleeson (Portland Timbers) 1990 Stefan Marinovic (SV Wehen Wiesbaden)(1991) Max Crocombe(Oxford United FC) U20 1993 U20

  Defenders: Tommy Smith (Ipswich Town) 1990  Liam Graham(Vicenza Calcio)(1992) Luis Esteves(Seattle Sounders)(1992) Dominik Traunmuller(Unterhaching) U20(1993) Storm Roux(Perth Glory) U20(1993) Ben Mckendry(Vancouver Whitecaps) U20 (1993) Francis De Vries(Fc Basel) U20(1994)  

Midfielders: Marco Rojas(Melbourne Victory) (1991) Dominique Jourdan(FCA Darmstadt) (1992) Cameron Howieson (Burnley) U20(1994) Tim Payne (Blackburn) U20 (1994) Mitch Cooper(Newcastle Jets) U20 (1994)  

Strikers: Greg Draper(The New Saints) 1989 Kosta Barbarouses(Alania Vladikavkaz) 1990 Chris Wood(Bristol city) (1991) Caleb Rufer(Fc Sydney)(1991) Kwabena Appiah(Central Coast Mariners)

Good stuff Abris - always appreciating your updates on young Kiwis abroad.

For a lot of new news on many of these players mentioned above such as those playing for MLS u-23 sides, Francis de Vries at FC Basel u-18, Liam Graham at Vicenza in Italy etc. also see here:

http://www.yellowfever.co.nz/forums/kiwi-players-overseas/young-kiwis-outside-uk?page=7

Young Kiwis at UK clubs:

http://www.yellowfever.co.nz/forums/kiwi-players-overseas/young-kiwis-uk?page=14

Young Kiwis at Aussie clubs:

http://www.yellowfever.co.nz/forums/kiwi-players-overseas/kiwis-aus-below-league-level?page=3#new

I hope Neil Emblen and his staff have been scouting these overseas players for the Oly Whites - but I have my doubts they have scouted any of them (except for Ricki Herbert checking on Howieson at Burnley and Payne at Blackburn when he was in Britain last month).

Would be a shame if guys like Liam Graham, Luis Esteves, Francis de Vries or Stefan Marinovic missed out on selection because the coaching staff didn't cast a wide enough net. Our opponents have been scouting every possible decent Egyptian, Belarusan or Brazilian  playing overseas for many months- unfortunately I suspect NZ Football's budget is so limited that they haven't seriously tracked many young Kiwis playing overseas...

Liam Graham and Luis Esteves have been involved with the NZ U20`s previously and haven`t made the cut.

They were never players of any pedigree when they left NZ

Marinovic on the other hand must have a good chance of making the Olympic squad

I agree that marinovic should be in the olympic squad especially that he was the number 1 keeper in the last u20 WC. He played 3 weeks ago with Wehen Wiesbaden II team in a 2-2 draw

http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/en/sv-wehen-wiesbaden-ii-spvgg-hadamar/index/spielbericht_1142396.html

Francis de Vries started in the ASB Youth League in the season just gone, surely he's known to selectors.

Anyone know the latest on Jamie Doris? Being released from Hibernaian.

I don't really know if Graham and Esteves are up to it or not, though their progress in recent seasons would suggest they are and they're certainly amongst our top group of youth players playing overseas and are still very young (Graham is 19 and Esteves turns twenty today). Some of our best US college players may be decent enough too.

Both were regarded quite highly when with Central United and Auckland City in 2009-10 as capable youth players.

Esteves was a starter in every game for that successful u-17 team in the World Cup in Nigeria in 2009 and originally in the u-20 squad in early 2011 preparing for the OFC qualifiers, but signed for Portland Timbers U-23's around the time of the qualifiers and didn't make the squad in the end- he may have not been released or available.

Esteves was still playing in the u-20 team after the qualifiers in their early build-up games before the finals such as the May 10 2011 win over Nigeria which he started in:

Suwon International Youth (U-20) Tournament 2011
Suwon World Cup Stadium
Suwon, Korea Republic, May 10

Nigeria 3 (18’, 65’ 66’)
New Zealand 4 (Cameron LINDSAY 36’, Nick BRANCH , Marco ROJAS 71’, Dakota LUCAS 77’)
Halftime: 1-1

New Zealand: Stefan MARINOVIC (gk), Luis ESTEVEZ (Ant HOBBS 46’), Nick BRANCH (c), James MUSA (Nikko BOXALL 80’), Andrew MILNE (Liam HIGGINS 66’), Ryan CAIN, Adam THOMAS (Zane SOLE 90’), Cameron LINDSAY, Marco ROJAS (Michael BUILT 88’), Andy BEVIN, Dakota LUCAS (Sean LOVEMORE 89’).
Substitutes not used: Alex CARR (rgk), Jamie DORIS, Ethan GALBRAITH.
Coach: Chris MILICICH

Liam Graham was on the bench for every game in the OFC qualifiers in April 2011 and had just signed for Vicenza in Italy at that time. I have no idea why he didn't make the squad for the World Cup Finals in Colombia in October 2011. But there's always a range of possible reasons from not being rated/ falling out of favour with the coach, to not being released (clubs are not obliged to release players even for FIFA youth finals, except the Olympics for the first time this year) or injury. Actually, Graham was injured for Vicenza around that time I think as he became a regular starter for them only in January 2012.

Esteves (left) with Andrew Milne, and Adam Thomas on tour with the NZ u20s, Korea, 2011

I don't know much about Liam Graham, but have seen Esteves play a few times and was never impressed with him, and like UK Kiwi said, he's hardly an unknown here. I mean, good on him for giving it a good go, and he may well have improved his game since the time I saw him play here, but in reality he's an (almost) 20-year old playing in an amateur league - is that really that impressive?

Well he's playing in the youth team of one of the better MLS sides (and Ryan Nelsen has told me the best MLS sides are top-half English Championship level) and the United States Soccer League Premier Development League that the MLS u-23 sides play in is apparently regarded as the fourth tier of North American football (drawing from the populations of the entire North America = c. 350 million) and includes professionals, over-age players and college players in NCAA down-time. I'm going to hazard it can't be too bad a league. 40 future or past USA internationals have played in this league 1999- 2010 usually before heading to MLS or overseas, plus it has produced Canadian and other internationals and players have gone on to the Premier League (e.g. Jonathan Spector) or the Bundesliga etc.  

It's a little unusual in that some sides have a lot of professionals (and no college players to guard their amateur status), whilst the majority are based around the best college players wanting extra football over the summer. MLS u-23 sides are classed as professional and the players are contracted to MLS sides and are paid. College rules don't prevent players playing against professionals , only in the same team. 8 players in each squad can be over 23 too.

Arguably that's a tougher league than the NCAA college competitions many future All Whites have played in - and for that matter some of our best players of the last 15 years have taken that route of years of playing amateur football in NZ and the States.

Players develop at different rates e.g.  you could say Ryan Nelsen was a slower developer in terms of entering professional football as he was a college amateur until aged 23. In fact his college football career didn't start until he was close to 20. Ryan played a full season in the Canterbury Premier League for Christchurch United aged 20 in between US college stints. And a handful of NZ National league games for Woolston in the 90's. I was aware of him when he was a teenager and he was very young when he debuted for Christchurch United's Canterbury league senior side, yet he attracted little attention nationally until after his college career when he made the All Whites in 1999 for the Confeds Cup in Mexico. He barely featured in NZ junior sides before making the 1999 Olympic team.

Simon Elliott was already almost 25 when he turned pro after three years in US college football. He was about 23 when he left Central League football and Miramar national league football in Wellington for US college football. I remember well as I had a drink with him in a bar in Nelson after a national league game at that time.

Ben Sigmund of course spent years in amateur football  before being signed by the Nix at age 27. He was mostly only rated by us Cantabrians and even failed a trial at English Conference side Hendon after also failing to break into German football during trials there in 1999.

So talented young players, as well as chosing an extended amateur path don't always have their ability spotted by pro clubs for various reasons e.g. Frank McAvennie became a Scottish international in the 1980's but only turned pro aged 21 after time as a road sweeper and being rejected by the army; Peter Beardsley was signed by a Canadian club after being ignored by English ones in his youth and then went home and became a star aged 22 at his native Newcastle.

SEE:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USL_Premier_Development_League

That's all fine, but it's not what we're talking about, is it? We're not talking about whether Esteves is going to have a decent, or great, or indeed any, kind of professional career since none of us are clairvoyant. But what we have been talking about is whether he's being wrongfully neglected by NZ football at this stage of his career, and considering all the facts before us, we can't say that he is - people know about him and have seen him play, and he has never particularly impressed or stood out. So just because he's playing overseas in a league of dubious quality should not propel him up the ranks just like that.

Amen brother Box, amen

Big Pete

You can push your cause all you like but I`m still not convinced

But I will conceded there are always late developers