Wishes for the new ASBP season

I expect to be banging my head against a brick wall. NZ domestic football is and always has been a joke except for a few brief years following the start of the National League. And of course no money ever changed hands then! Haha! Of course not. Ken Armstrong, Kevin Fallon, Alan Vest, Ken Dugdale, etc. etc. etc. etc. came to NZ out of the goodness of their hearts. Ask Leggy.

This is interesting and something that hasn't been covered in detail but how much of this is true and how much are the teams representative of the football playing community?

Take Auckland for instance. What proportion of the population are NZ citizens and of those that are how many were born in NZ. Then you can narrow that down to within the ages of 16-40 and those that play football. Teams could be fairly representative.

Good point. When I played in Wellington the best teams (apart from Miramar R) were stacked with 'expats'. Just the nature of the demographic and their sporting interest, not some anti-Kiwi conspiracy.

Yeah, I agree. The main point I was trying to make with that analysis was that for all the complaining we hear about how NZF need to do more to support the league, there's actually quite a lot of money sloshing around already. So the problem seems to be more about coordination and priorities, and that's something the franchises could easily set about addressing themselves.

Maybe the time has come for the franchises to have a stronger role in managing the league. They appear to have the means at their disposal so that would give them more responsibility/accountability.

The Northern and Central Leagues only seem to be stepping stones to leagues of approximately similar quality to the ASB Prem though. And if the players that you've mentioned can get paid better elsewhere then that's just tough and the nature of world football. I think young, up and coming players like Rojas, Barbarouses, Fenton, Boyd, Thomas etc will still continue to see the ASB Prem as a viable stepping stone to higher professional leagues like the A-League. Most of the guys you've mentioned are older players who are probably hitting the ceiling of their ability at Aussie State League/ASB Prem level and, of course, they will be more interested in taking the money while it's available. Some will go to Aussie, some will decide it suits them better (and maybe even pays better) to stay in Northern or Central League, some may give up the game completely, and some will play ASB Prem and feel a bit hard done by. A whole bunch of imports won't bother even coming here. That's fine, that's just about grown-ups making choices and trade-offs in their lives.

It's not the job of the ASB Prem to provide the top 150 footballers in the country with a living that the game cannot afford.

Jerzy - it's a lovely idea that our national league could be semi or fully pro but wishing it doesn't make it so. The environment here simply doesn't support that happening (unless you can find your eight crazy millionaires).

So be it then. I don;t see anyone crying for Marco cause he is in Germany. If they get paid to play in better leagues, good on them. They are still eligible for the AWs.

For guys like Butler who has a family and kids, I actually doubt that would happen.

But I though there were posters on this forum who were saying that in some cases it already was. I'm saying paying players should be legitimised, as it is in nearly every other country that plays football, large and small. Then let those club & franchise directors who are prepared to take the investment risk go for the big prize - FIFA World Club Cup qualification.

NB Didn't Mt Wellington, arguably NZ's most successful club, pull out of the Northern League not because they were broke but because they were denied entry to the ASB and because there was nothing meaningful to aim for. Now there is. But it's a closed shop.

Hang on Jerzy. 

So your solution to a league that is funded in the main by community trusts is to change the league rules so they no longer have access to the primary means of funding?

If these 'club and franchise directors' aren't putting in enough money to fund the sides now without Pokie money when it's 'amateur', why would they do it just because they are allowed to pay players?

The rest of the world either has a market large enough to support these things or the sport is dominant enough in a small market to make professional football viable.  Remember there will be little to no gates, little to no media rights and little to no merchandise which (along with owners) is what underpins professional football.

Yes, but there's no prize for winning the Northern League. I distinctly remember that was a big reason for them staying out of it. But there IS an incentive for winning the ASB.

Because they would be operating in a free market without restraint. With a chance for World Club Cup glory. Putting their club's name on the map, same as directors and fans wish for all over the planet. Okay, you might see teams with names like Keinzley's Kickers, and billboards with same plastered all over Masterton - but at least the guy could actually give it a go. Unhindered. Same I dare say with Ivan V. And are you saying there's not one businessman in the South Island who'd get in behind a Christchurch semi-pro outfit that wasn't in competition with the Nix? If not, well okay, let's just stay 'amateur' and keep splashing about in our own backyard puddle and let talent continue heading off-shore.

Do you actually believe that there is this untapped pool of money sitting out there right now that is ready to go to put into a professional league?

No. But I believe there are individuals who might be prepared to give it a go if encouraged to do so. Of course I might be wrong. Franz Dotcom is letting the side down for one.

I admire your passion and belief but I go back to a previous point. Rugby is by a million miles the #1 sport in NZ, and even that cannot sustain a profitable, fully professional local league, and I'm not seeing businessmen lining up to fund teams, even in Canterbury where everyone (bar Big Pete and a few others on this forum) is completely bonkers about rugby.

Even if we did have a pro league, our best talent would still need to go offshore - that is our reality. But the more who succeed gives us more of a footprint on the globe and means that clubs with real money will increasingly look to NZ for a place to find a hidden gem. And ultimately, as much as we'd all love to be going to our own packed 10,000 seater stadium  every fortnight to cheer on our local heroes, yours and my kids will continue to aspire to play in La Liga, Serie A, EPL etc, and good on them.

This picture is incomplete until you examine how money is spent.  For a start you're ignoring the costs of competing at the O-League and CWC which are significant and explain part of the difference in grant money - for Waitak that's listed as the best part of $100k in overseas travel alone in their accounts.

Under your equal distrubition model what is your plan for improving the weaker sides?  If the talent isn't there in a region then you have to bring players from outside or overseas. This is the fundamental point and you're just not addressing it.  Because the competition will only be worth watching when there are better teams competing, not by getting rid of the better players.  A more equal competition is only part of the equation to improve the league

Personally, I think the biggest problem is that without promotion and relegation there is no incentive for clubs to maintain standards, mostly because there are no fans to be accountable to.  I'm not convinced that for a semi-pro league a franchise system really works.

This is an interesting statement though JD.

It’s been asked before but what are we even after here? What does "better" mean and what does "worth watching" mean?

There are at least two variables in play here – the overall standard of the league and the overall competitiveness of the league. Ideally, we probably want as much as we can get (afford) of both, but if we can’t have both then what should we prioritise?

Of course, the answer to that depends on what we think the league is for.

If we want the league to generate lots of interest from crowds, media etc then we need to know what engages them. Is it good players? Is it close, competitive games? A bit of both? I don’t think any of us actually know the definitive answer to that.

If we want the league to be a development league, or pathway, for NZ players then that’s different. We obviously still want a high standard and competitive games but not at the expense of opportunities for Kiwi players – so goodbye imports (and goodbye to a lot of the funding pressure).

If we want the league to simply produce a champion capable of qualifying for, and winning at, the CWC then that’s different again. Hello imports! Hello professionalism! And who cares how competitive the league is as long as the top team is good, right? 

I reckon that we are currently pursuing that last option, whether we consciously intended to or not, and therefore a lot of the policy type settings around the league have defaulted to support that. But that’s also where a lot of the debate comes from because many of us are actually looking for a different set of outcomes and therefore perceive those settings as being “wrong”.

It’s also difficult to discuss the role of the league without considering the wider strategic context of football in NZ. For instance, we might decide it’s strategically important that Kiwi footballers can play professionally in their own country. You could deliver that via the ASB Prem or you could decide that a better approach would be via the A-League, and look to establish new A-League franchises in NZ  instead. The role of the ASB Prem is completely different depending on the outcome you want.

When we don’t even know  where we want to go it’s no wonder we are all bitching and moaning at each other about how to get there.

That's actually a very good point.

To steal someone else line, I think the league should be a stepping stone to something else, not an 'I've finally made it' league. For a few players, it will be that but I think we want to use the league to get as many players into better leagues. This then gives us a potentially wider net of players that play in better leagues for our national team(s) and thus WC qualification. That then brings back in the money which *hopefully* goes back into making the game better and/or funding said league and creating exposure which then produces better footballers etc....

More effort needed by clubs in ASB Prem to get NZF to at least double the number of games in a season per club.

Sure adds more costs but then becomes a bigger package for local sponsors for each club plus the national ones.

This league needs games over the Xmas/New Year break to get it out there to more. One game each club on either of, something to try as can only be the flop we have at present. Canterbury went to Nelson three seasons ago in January and got a great crowd of 2000+ I think.

What would you put your money on? A rally car used for 6 to 10 events a year with TV coverage and more on day spectators on all of them or ASB Prem. No contest at the moment is it.

Not everyone in Canterbury thinks the Cruswhatever are the bees knees.

Cheers JD, you make a lot of good points there and a few which I still think are debatable.

The main thing is I'm still not understanding is how you would get standards among the other franchises up to Auckland and Waitakere level. Under the status quo I can't see any way for that to happen than to pump more pokie money into Otago, Waikato, Canterbury etc. Not only does that seem difficult to do, it's also highly risky and setting the league up for an even bigger fail sometime in the future. And what happens if ACFC and Trillion Trust then go and raise the bar even further, just to stay ahead of the pack? Where do we stop?

I realise there are still major issues with implementing my alternative model (or some variation of it) but I wouldn't go as far as saying it's not credible. The DIA are consulting right now on changes to the gaming trust distribution rules so anything can be done. This is where the franchises need to be given, and take, more collective responsibility. They could approach the DIA for a discussion that starts with "the way we're doing this at the moment is just stupid".

I agree it needs to be completely tidied up. While I think the pokie money wont get tidied up how we see it, NZF can help themselves and as JD said, this 1 year living here and you are a local rule is a load of shit. They need to follow a FIFA eligibility model and at least give it credibility. I would go with not having anymore than 3-4 players that are not eligible to represent NZ in the squad (whether that being naturalised or born here but they have to have an NZ passport or fit that 5 year continuous living criteria to be classed as a local or however it goes). It allows for the imports but it then ensures that our league is giving opportunities for Kiwi footballers to at least have a chance of achieving something higher.

At present, a stumbling block is the criteria of having the Phoenix playing in the A League [no professional league in NZ for them to play in]. Maybe the current AFC/OFC talks might remove that problem.

If that was the case, then the NZPL could be a pro/semi pro league in reality and market forces could determine at what level that will be for clubs/franchises etc.

I also think we need anothe rA League side and maybe 2 to add to the whole package.

Our National League would double as a development league as well as a competitive league in its own right.

The link to the latest DIA consultation on Class 4 Gambling is here (although the consultation is closed now):

http://www.dia.govt.nz/pubforms.nsf/URL/Gambling_Public-consultation-on-four-Class-4-gambling-proposals_September-2013.pdf/$file/Gambling_Public-consultation-on-four-Class-4-gambling-proposals_September-2013.pdf

The focus is on:

• increasing the transparency of grant-making decisions; 

• increasing the minimum rate of return to authorised purposes; 

• regulating local distribution of gambling proceeds; and 

• changing the Class 4 venue payments system. 

Regulating local distribution also aims to put a higher proportion of proceeds back into the communities where they were generated. This could also mean that funding dries up in certain areas as it gets re-directed to where it was actually generated.

Anyway, the reason I raised this was not so much to highlight the potential impacts (which could still be significant) but just to illustrate that the DIA is clearly prepared to discuss and make changes to the system where it can see benefit.

Thanks JD.

Btw, when Gisborne City were a semi-pro outfit in the old National League they frequently got crowds of 2000 plus to Childers Rd. because the Gisborne crowd appreciated the effort the club was putting in attracting talent to the region - to the point that many who came were rugby supporters on a Saturday and football supporters on a Sunday. I don't expect JV will believe that but I heard it from a Gisborne Maori at the time.

Interesting that of all the Clubs around in the "Hey day" of the national league, probably only Miramar competing at the highest local, thinking of

Stop Out, Wellington Diamonds, Christchurch United, Woolston WMC, Manurewa, North Shore,  Mt Wellington, Eastern Suburbs, Blockhouse Bay 

 and probably a few others I have missed

Blockhouse Bay became Bay Olympic - and I believe Bay Oly are part of the Waitakerie "franchise". Or they were if they aren't now.

So essentially crippled vast majority of clubs who took part

Of course, all the Aussie State Leagues are currently undergoing major change as they move to the new National Premier League structure.

In Victoria there is currently a major shit-fight going on about this. Among the measures Football Federation Victoria are looking to implement are:

- a player points system similar to the NBL where you can only have a certain number of total points in your team.

- restricting clubs to recruiting within a certain boundary

- limiting promotion/relegation to just two tiers

Not sure this is quite the model you were aiming for JD! The clubs are pushing back but largely because of the costs and issues around control (similar complaints to here).

Two good Leopold Method articles about it:

http://leopoldmethod.com.au/in-search-of-perfection-p1/

http://leopoldmethod.com.au/in-search-of-perfection-p2/

Well worth reading the FFV documents included in those articles.

I'm going to see if I can find out what they did in NSW next and whether it's significantly different.

A quick Google search tells me that the player points system is actually part of the FFA's national criteria for the NPL:

To be eligible to participate in the NPL within each Member Federation, and in addition to sporting merit, clubs must meet uniform national criteria including:

• Total number of teams and age groups;
• Youth development practices, including the implementation of the National Curriculum;
• Coach accreditation criteria including the introduction of a Technical Director in each club;
• Organisational planning including finance, business planning and organisational structure;
• Greater oversight regarding the charging of player registration fees;
• Facility standards and improvement;
• Adoption of a player points system which incentivises clubs to develop players through their youth team structure as well as produce talent which progresses to national pathway programs (including Skilleroos, NTC and AIS) as well as the Foxtel National Youth League, Hyundai A-League and FFA National Teams.

Clubs are also restricted to a maximum of two visa players. A player who is not an Australian citizen or who does not have permanent residency is a visa player.

So in actual fact Australia is moving to quite strict rules around talent distribution and import restrictions.

There's also an impact on NZ in that its going to be much harder for a Kiwi to get a contract over there.

Hey Term, anything about the fairer sex in that FFA NPL info?

Thanks Term. Bit of discussion been going on down in the mainland threads about this sort of club criteria - as a reason for local 'winter' clubs to merge - in order to become more professional in delivery, not player payments, though that's an issue. Club mark system is taking us down this path, which also helps with funding applications, The more momentum it gains the more the ASB franchise system will be challenged by strong clubs I reckon.

Shouldn't clubs be working to making the ASBP better rather than challenging it? Some sort of split between club and ASBP seems like its just dilute both. 

Regal wrote: Shouldn't clubs be working to making the ASBP better rather than challenging it? Some sort of split between club and ASBP seems like its just dilute both.
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Some clubs want a return of national CLUB league, do not sure where that would leave ASBP