Wishes for the new ASBP season

T-X, I'll get back to you on the Aussie model when I have a bit more time.

But this is also an important issue.  If the "pathway" to ASBP is via franchises, that will put local clubs in direct conflict with franchises at some point in the future.  In Wellington you're already seeing it with Ole/Wests tie up, and as Team Wellington becomes Miramar summer league I think clubs are going to be more reticent about their juniors and their tie ups with summer franchises.

While we're talking about the "pathway" - I've always felt school football right in the middle of the key 13 - 18 year group is not going to help with player development

Even so, given that ASBP is the current national league, they should be supporting it, while making their case for a return to a club based league. Anything else is just disruptive and unhelpful. 

Though JD, you make a good point. Ideally you'd have all clubs working (for example) Wellington to make TW successful. But then it's just turned out to be a Miramar summer league as you say. How do you fix that? I don't know. But it is a fundamental flaw, and does cause the friction with clubs as you and global game have mentioned. 

It's clearly not helpful. It even lessens the player pool for the league quite unnecessarily. 

A few clubs in the sth is. are pushing really hard for southern league but Feds won't support it. If Otago/SU go the way many think they will this season it only strengthens the case of the cavvys and dndn techs for a higher level club based comp. Cashmere tech would jump right in and a couple of others would follow.

I have to say the current franchise set-up doesn't quite feel right to me.  I understand all the issues in the past with club based national league but even so, this feels like we're coming up against some major brick walls with the current arrangement.  I need to think more about what the answer might be 

Do you mean drop out of the ASBP?

One further point - it only costs 50k to compete in the new Vic premier league vs 65 in the ASBP!  I wonder who'll get better value from that

"Some clubs want a return of national CLUB league, do not sure where that would leave ASBP"

Sounds a lot like many of the comments I hear on this side of the ditch

Oops, bit early in the morning

There is some strong talk around about reverting to a Club national league from some knowledgeable characters.   I personally am not a fan of the franchise system as it tends to disengage the strong club base in New Zealand.   The franchise model seems to work with rugby and league where there is heaps of money involved.   However, we seem to persevere with the franchise system that we have.

If the issue with the old club-based national league was the boom or bust spending strategy clubs adopted, perhaps a combination of a club-based league centrally funded by NZF would work?

The theory would be:

- NZF get a big lump of funding from one or multiple trusts.

- Each club the achieves the level gets a chunk of money.

- They can supplement that from sponsorship or gate takings, but not from additional gaming machine money.

- Relegated teams get a parachute payment (maybe).

If the league is funded sustainably in this way, one of the driving purposes of the franchise league (insulating clubs from spending beyond their means) should drop away.

Yeah it's fascinating, and very topical, looking at what the Aussies are doing. Each state is doing a slightly different thing but within an overall national framework. There's probably lots of lessons we can learn, both good and bad.

One key difference between us and them seems to be that they are delivering all their youth development through the NPL clubs, not through Federations as we do here. That's why NPL clubs have to enter a whole bunch of men's and women's age-grade teams as well. That's also their main source of revenue because they charge the kids quite large sums in order to pay for the coaching. Part of the scrap in Victoria is because the FFV want to cap the fees at $1,700 per kid thereby restricting the clubs income. The clubs want to be able to charge more! To be fair, when you compare that to the cost of attending FTC/NTC here (or a private academy) that probably stacks up?

The idea of having a very clear pathway is central to what they are doing though and it's very clear that the NPL is about development, they are not even pretending for a second that this is about clubs coming up through the leagues and achieving greatness.

I agree with that. I've got no problem in principle with a club based model as long as the money is kept under control (and the egos are kept out of it). You could throw a player points system in there as well to further remove the temptation to spend on player payments.

Quite interested to see how the Aussies actually manage to implement that player points system though.

One of the key differences between what FFV and FFNSW are doing seems to be how they treat social or community clubs. In Victoria an NPL club cannot have any social teams but is aligned with community clubs within its boundary which are it's feeder clubs. In NSW an NPL club can have a community component but the teams are referred to as 'sub-junior' and maybe subject to some different rules? Closer to home Team Welly obviously started out as the FFV model but has morphed into something closer to the FFNSW model, which ACFC has really been all along (although an ASB Prem franchise is still a separate legal entity).

EDIT: actually I can see a couple of problems with the above scheme Smithy.

First of all, if you go back to a club based league they will all have legitimate reason to apply for pokie funding for things other than funding the first team. Not sure how you separate that out. Maybe you just rely on other mechanisms to keep the need for pokie funding under control (including actually enforcing the existing rules around pokie money not being used to pay players!).

The other potential problem is that it's all good to remove the need to spend up big while in the national league, but how do you control the spending of clubs trying to get there?

Neither of these problems should be impossible to solve though.

Why would teams need a parachute payment? I'm not sure I understand the reasons why if they just slipped back into their regional league (of which I suspect a few players would leave and go find a club at that national league level and the club that gets relegated drops like a stone) and the costs would not be anywhere near as substantial.

Help me out a little cause I am special and don't get it.

Fair enough. I guess I have to accept the point cause I've never been involved with a national league team.

OK, I  accept there may not be the money to run a national club league AND a franchise summer league (though I don't think it's impossible) but where does that leave national (franchise) youth league? If you think "as is", I'd suggest that's unlikely as funding is more likely for a senior regional franchise/representative team than just a youth team or even just one or two clubs in a region. Clubs are unlikely to raise money to fund 2 traveling teams (senior and youth), plus you'd have a massive bun-fight for players and youth players.

And for rabid speculation: I think any NZ national league needs to consider its position very carefully in relation to the Australian National Premier league - official, nationally co-ordinated 2nd tier of football in Aussie. Which NZ clubs will be first to align themselves with Aussie premier league clubs; 'feeder' clubs, if you like.

Smithy wrote: The youth league question is a valid one.

Personally, I think it's an abject waste of time, so don't really care what becomes of it.
Global Game replied ( so tedious this):
So Smithy, abject waste of time?
A) aussie premier league?
B) ASB youth?
C) ASBP?

I assume your answer is B. If so, would you replace it, or do you think it's unnecessary and serves no great purpose? Or, something else?

It's not pointless to the about 250 players Nationwide who are involved in the ASB Youth League each year and the development, pathways and vision for the future it provides them.

Come on Smithy, there are so many posts on this forum (not this thread) that questions NZF's commitment to the game and the development of players towards being future All Whites and you say one of the things 16 - 19 year old players strive, and then trial for, and for the 250 players involved, achieve being part of, is pointless?

Seriously?

Can't wait for Santa now!

Some updated info...

In addition to the consultation on Class 4 Gambling the DIA are also currently carrying out what they are calling the "largest investigation in the history of the gambling sector". 

Gaming grants probed

Inquiry into pokie grants looks likely to hit home

Their statement that  "the integrity of the pokie grants system is essential to prevent any group gaining unlawful advantage over grant funding, which deprives genuine community groups of obtaining grants for their legitimate causes” should be enough to cause a few people sleepless nights.

However, its real impact is not going to be about whatever prosecutions may happen, but that it will cause all trusts to become a lot more careful and circumspect about who they grant funding to (and how much). For instance, how many of us can honestly say that we think an ASB Prem franchise is a "genuine community group" and that the franchises only ever apply for funding for "legitimate causes". Although you could obviously make arguments either way I think what the trusts will do anyway is try and reduce the grey areas that they operate in, and that may disadvantage the ASB Prem.

"The integrity of the pokie grants system" 

I lol'd

For the answer to this, I've consulted the head of the NZF Gareth Kill Catum - 

Gareth "Yes, I am perfectly aware of the ASB ITM Cup and it's quality players such as Ryan Mealamu and Ivan McCaw as I've recently taken up the head coach position of the All Blites recently vacated by Graeme Herbert and have been busy implementing a revolutionary new style of play known as 'Touch and Go'... OOOOIIIIII!!!!!!! (Bang! Bang!... Miaow!)... BLOODY CATS!!!"

"Seriously, I've no idea what you're talking about. If you want to watch a game of Football then you have a number of options - 1) sit on your arse and watch quality football like the EPL. 2) See the all Whites once a Millenium or 3) Watch the Wellington Travelling Circus Phoenix as I'm pretty sure they're playing a 'home' game in Gore next week... Who needs a national league?"

I'll pin another sock over the fireplace and hope really hard. Maybe Frank Van Herbert will fall down the chimney counting his ill-gotten Mexico television pesos and will slip some in the forlorn tatty ASBP sock. I promise I won't ask "where you been" or "did playing the non-players work out okay?" I'll just be grateful for whatever crumbs of Christmas cake come our way.

It'd be nice to have a few kiwis playing in our local amateur competition. 

Also that pokie money goes toward things other than paying foreign (and occasionally local) players stupid money to play in an amateur competition. Like actually coaching kids. Better facilities. A media manager. 

People complain that the league is underfunded, while at the same time money is being poured down a black hole every season.