Thanks for telling me what to be concerned about.
How about I be concerned with both. Is that acceptable to you? Am I allowed to have concern for both?
Please respond quickly for I am lost without your guidance.
I don't really care what you concern yourself with as every one of your posts seems to be some pithy put down of our national league or a personal attack on me or any other Aucklander.
As a suggestion for adjustment to the current scenario (fully expecting to get mauled on this, but anyway...)
Winter leagues are currently regional, or thereabouts... so what if there was an agreement that the best regional teams qualified each year for a truncated national league that started at the end of the season and ran through till Christmas... for instance, it could be say top 3 from north, top 2 from Central, and South Island champion... those 6 could then play home and away, Sept-Dec...
That way, the "must-be-a-club-league" obsessives would get their wish, the national league portion would potentially have lower overall costs, and perhaps a more marketable angle for things like TV coverage... there'd be de facto promotion/relegation as each year's National League would be qualified for from the winter... if the regions went for it, a "franchise" entity such as Auckland City or Hawke's Bay could play in their regional comp with a shot at making the Nat Lge... any club that backed itself to go it alone and take on the big guns could do so... and the bigger clubs/franchises would be able to assemble strong teams, hopefully meaning the standard would not slip too much, and may even increase a bit... and maybe a rule like you can sign 2-3 players who didn't play for you in winter but can play in Nat Lge...
This would also allow Nat Lge players to have an actual off season from New Year through to March-April, rather than the year around issues that some teams/players complain of... the top 2 from the Nat Lge can play in the following season's Oceania Champs tournament, and if they win, have a good run through winter and the Nat Lge to prepare for CWC in December... plus the Nat Lge part would be in (arguably) better weather etc... maybe even time a grand final for the New Year period when there's no other sport to compete with and the media will talk about anything... and play it at a holiday spot like Mt Maunganui or Nelson where you can promote to holiday people and get a decent crowd in (BBQs, bouncy castles for the kids etc)...
I'm guessing some may say this sounds too much like the former Superclub thing, and maybe they're right... am just thinking out loud, and perhaps it may even cost a little less than the current scenario, especially in travel...
Feel free to savage this to your heart's content... all I know is that people were whinging about how the National League was being run when I first started watching in the 1980s, and that still seems to be the case... I guess this is just an idea to try and meld the best of both scenarios into one cogent system... and I'm sure I've overlooked loads of vital and essential aspects, like financial rules etc...
Awwww Tegal , you are more easily led than I thought .....and that's surprised me ....
Awwww Tegal , you are more easily led than I thought .....and that's surprised me ....
Martin Crowe's comeback was better than that!!
I'm proposing that we align with what FFA are doing - they've recognised
that the purpose of a national (semi pro) club league is as a
DEVELOPMENT league. Football 3 hours away is growing - on all measures.
We need to find a way to ride that wave.
[/quote
I think there's a lot of merit in this concept. Accepting the league for what it is, a development league, and make that work as best as we can, is not negative nor defeatist but in fact pragmatic. Direct the resources to key items like coaching and facilities, and ensuring every chance is given to youngsters to develop their game.
And at the same time diehard fans will continue to support it, and others will drift in and out as they always have.
the eredivisie isn't as good as the bundesliga, do they consider themselves a development league?
yes, there is always an element of development in any league, but if our national league is going to to have any meaning or purpose it needs to be competitive and represent the best that we have on these shores
'development' leagues are reserve or youth leagues
i'm tired of this country's obsession with building for the future. we have done that forever now and we have never paused to concentrate on improving the standard and giving the very best kids a chance to learn alongside the best and therefore better prepare them for a tough pro league
Thanks for telling me what to be concerned about.
How about I be concerned with both. Is that acceptable to you? Am I allowed to have concern for both?
Please respond quickly for I am lost without your guidance.
I don't really care what you concern yourself with as every one of your posts seems to be some pithy put down of our national league or a personal attack on me or any other Aucklander.
All football clubs at league level [Northern, Central, Mpl, Spl] and administrators of ASB Premiership and this includes NZF are very backward in promoting the sport.
Motorsport has less numbers competing in all it's forms in NZ but look at the TV time slots sky and free to air + news coverage of that sport.
Why? because the people competing or admining the various aspects get out from under the desk and do some leg work to get exposure, plus put their own money on the table.
Giltrap, Pero, Quinn, Graham, just to name a few who have put money or services on the sport.
Name one football person putting plenty of skin in other than the Wellnix guys and Dawkins.
Wellnix are at a level that we are not complaining about lack of action this is about the ASB Premiership and NZF in all it's dealings.
Morgan is correct to keep having a dig at them all at NZF.
Compare the Tennis coverage Radio and TV from a couple of weeks ago to what ASB get from NZF.
Next board meeting question. EH which one will we sponsor for the next twenty years? Only one and doesn't have an F.
Here's the problem - getting the ASBP reported on the sports news won't bridge the gap between the thousands and thousands that are interested in, and attend, motor sport in NZ, and the hundreds that go to the ASBP.
It's a nothing league played in suburban grounds at a low standard. On a weekend without an ACFC or Chch home game you're talking total attendances of less than 1000 people - that's a completely different ball game to motor sport. Sure, you might be able to improve the average attendances from 200-500 to say 1000, but that's nowhere near a sustainable league financially.
I don't agree with a lot of what T-X has to say about gaming funding, but he's right about one thing. The league is comparitively well resourced - over $3mn in total per year. That's a significant amount which I'd argue right now is not going in the right areas to improve the league long-term.
The fact that the whole thing is run on gaming money means the franchises have got completely lazy - outside of ACFC there are no "fans" as such so there is no real accountability for poor results, and no real requirement to even consider what you're putting on to get people through the gates.
You're imploring individuals to spend money on the ASBP, but to do what? I hear the same thing over and over, spend money on marketing as if that will solve all the problems, or offer prize money as if that will end up getting spent on anything other than more average players. The issues are far, far deeper than that, spectator facilities are poor, on pitch quality is, let's say, mixed (it's poor really). The league is uncompetitive and there are structural imbalances between the various sides based on population and local league strength. The format is tired, and to be honest, boring. The playoffs are completely pointless. The lack of promo and relegation means a team can write off a season without concern. The idea that "someone needs to spend some money" and "get it promoted in the media" is, I'm afraid, completely laughable and exposes the real lack of thought going into this topic.
I understand what you're saying but the gist of it is just give up and walk away from a domestic national league. I'm lucky in that I support ACFC and get a lot of enjoyment out of watching the most successful and robust franchise in the competition. I know it must be hard to generate enthusiasm outside of CU and HBU when hardly anyone tunrs up and there's not much to play for. I wish SU was attracting a thousand noisy fans to their impressive covered stadium but sadly it's not the case. My dream is a league of eight sides like ACFC in a really competitive competition with the Fifa Club Wold Cup as a glittering prize. It's there but only really for two or three sides at the most.
But I'm trying to be optimistic in the face of a lot of pessimism. I work in the film industry and that's a professional necessity. We can't go back to a club-based national league as its not financially viable as experience has clearly shown us. The ASBP is the only way forward. But it is tired (outside of ACFC and CU) and it needs major investment. The standard is not "dismal" as some have said and at its best it can be damned exciting.
The ASBP is now seven years old and has been a springboard for a lot of local players into the professional ranks. NZ football will be in a sorry state if we lose it.
the eredivisie isn't as good as the bundesliga, do they consider themselves a development league?
yes, there is always an element of development in any league, but if our national league is going to to have any meaning or purpose it needs to be competitive and represent the best that we have on these shores
'development' leagues are reserve or youth leagues
i'm tired of this country's obsession with building for the future. we have done that forever now and we have never paused to concentrate on improving the standard and giving the very best kids a chance to learn alongside the best and therefore better prepare them for a tough pro league
To an extent the Eredivisie is a development league in that the best young players move to Bundesliga, EPL etc. That's kind of what I meant for the ASB - let's understand what the limitations are, eg lack of football culture, finances to fund fully pro clubs. So to sum up what I'm trying to say is develop players with the understanding that the best ones will move on to bigger and better things, but it still provides a competitive and worthwhile league for the best local talent
All football clubs at league level [Northern, Central, Mpl, Spl] and administrators of ASB Premiership and this includes NZF are very backward in promoting the sport.
Motorsport has less numbers competing in all it's forms in NZ but look at the TV time slots sky and free to air + news coverage of that sport.
Why? because the people competing or admining the various aspects get out from under the desk and do some leg work to get exposure, plus put their own money on the table.
Giltrap, Pero, Quinn, Graham, just to name a few who have put money or services on the sport.
Name one football person putting plenty of skin in other than the Wellnix guys and Dawkins.
Wellnix are at a level that we are not complaining about lack of action this is about the ASB Premiership and NZF in all it's dealings.
Morgan is correct to keep having a dig at them all at NZF.
Compare the Tennis coverage Radio and TV from a couple of weeks ago to what ASB get from NZF.
Next board meeting question. EH which one will we sponsor for the next twenty years? Only one and doesn't have an F.
Here's the problem - getting the ASBP reported on the sports news won't bridge the gap between the thousands and thousands that are interested in, and attend, motor sport in NZ, and the hundreds that go to the ASBP.
It's a nothing league played in suburban grounds at a low standard. On a weekend without an ACFC or Chch home game you're talking total attendances of less than 1000 people - that's a completely different ball game to motor sport. Sure, you might be able to improve the average attendances from 200-500 to say 1000, but that's nowhere near a sustainable league financially.
I don't agree with a lot of what T-X has to say about gaming funding, but he's right about one thing. The league is comparitively well resourced - over $3mn in total per year. That's a significant amount which I'd argue right now is not going in the right areas to improve the league long-term.
The fact that the whole thing is run on gaming money means the franchises have got completely lazy - outside of ACFC there are no "fans" as such so there is no real accountability for poor results, and no real requirement to even consider what you're putting on to get people through the gates.
You're imploring individuals to spend money on the ASBP, but to do what? I hear the same thing over and over, spend money on marketing as if that will solve all the problems, or offer prize money as if that will end up getting spent on anything other than more average players. The issues are far, far deeper than that, spectator facilities are poor, on pitch quality is, let's say, mixed (it's poor really). The league is uncompetitive and there are structural imbalances between the various sides based on population and local league strength. The format is tired, and to be honest, boring. The playoffs are completely pointless. The lack of promo and relegation means a team can write off a season without concern. The idea that "someone needs to spend some money" and "get it promoted in the media" is, I'm afraid, completely laughable and exposes the real lack of thought going into this topic.
I understand what you're saying but the gist of it is just give up and walk away from a domestic national league. I'm lucky in that I support ACFC and get a lot of enjoyment out of watching the most successful and robust franchise in the competition. I know it must be hard to generate enthusiasm outside of CU and HBU when hardly anyone tunrs up and there's not much to play for. I wish SU was attracting a thousand noisy fans to their impressive covered stadium but sadly it's not the case. My dream is a league of eight sides like ACFC in a really competitive competition with the Fifa Club Wold Cup as a glittering prize. It's there but only really for two or three sides at the most.
But I'm trying to be optimistic in the face of a lot of pessimism. I work in the film industry and that's a professional necessity. We can't go back to a club-based national league as its not financially viable as experience has clearly shown us. The ASBP is the only way forward. But it is tired (outside of ACFC and CU) and it needs major investment. The standard is not "dismal" as some have said and at its best it can be damned exciting.
The ASBP is now seven years old and has been a springboard for a lot of local players into the professional ranks. NZ football will be in a sorry state if we lose it.
Investment by whom in what? That's the major issue here and one on which you are particularly and consistently vague
Personally, I think there's a major flaw in the format. Auckland is too big and has too many strong players to only have 2 teams. 8 sides is too few and actually it's just far too repetitive and boring. Without promotion and relegation, and with majority of funding coming from gaming trusts, clubs are unaccountable and bad performances go unpunished removing the incentives to assemble a great squad. I think you have to find some way to introduce some competition at the bottom - there has to be some reason not to want to finish last.
Hear! Hear! And as its set up it will never change. No promotion/relegation is its major flaw. And thats why the clubs and many of their supporters have turned their backs on it. It's an artificial league kept going only by one incentive - winning entry into the O-League, and half of the 8 teams will never get near. Much better if all NZ clubs had a chance at the O-League, and we don't need an 8-team National League for that.
All football clubs at league level [Northern, Central, Mpl, Spl] and administrators of ASB Premiership and this includes NZF are very backward in promoting the sport.
Motorsport has less numbers competing in all it's forms in NZ but look at the TV time slots sky and free to air + news coverage of that sport.
Why? because the people competing or admining the various aspects get out from under the desk and do some leg work to get exposure, plus put their own money on the table.
Giltrap, Pero, Quinn, Graham, just to name a few who have put money or services on the sport.
Name one football person putting plenty of skin in other than the Wellnix guys and Dawkins.
Wellnix are at a level that we are not complaining about lack of action this is about the ASB Premiership and NZF in all it's dealings.
Morgan is correct to keep having a dig at them all at NZF.
Compare the Tennis coverage Radio and TV from a couple of weeks ago to what ASB get from NZF.
Next board meeting question. EH which one will we sponsor for the next twenty years? Only one and doesn't have an F.
Here's the problem - getting the ASBP reported on the sports news won't bridge the gap between the thousands and thousands that are interested in, and attend, motor sport in NZ, and the hundreds that go to the ASBP.
It's a nothing league played in suburban grounds at a low standard. On a weekend without an ACFC or Chch home game you're talking total attendances of less than 1000 people - that's a completely different ball game to motor sport. Sure, you might be able to improve the average attendances from 200-500 to say 1000, but that's nowhere near a sustainable league financially.
I don't agree with a lot of what T-X has to say about gaming funding, but he's right about one thing. The league is comparitively well resourced - over $3mn in total per year. That's a significant amount which I'd argue right now is not going in the right areas to improve the league long-term.
The fact that the whole thing is run on gaming money means the franchises have got completely lazy - outside of ACFC there are no "fans" as such so there is no real accountability for poor results, and no real requirement to even consider what you're putting on to get people through the gates.
You're imploring individuals to spend money on the ASBP, but to do what? I hear the same thing over and over, spend money on marketing as if that will solve all the problems, or offer prize money as if that will end up getting spent on anything other than more average players. The issues are far, far deeper than that, spectator facilities are poor, on pitch quality is, let's say, mixed (it's poor really). The league is uncompetitive and there are structural imbalances between the various sides based on population and local league strength. The format is tired, and to be honest, boring. The playoffs are completely pointless. The lack of promo and relegation means a team can write off a season without concern. The idea that "someone needs to spend some money" and "get it promoted in the media" is, I'm afraid, completely laughable and exposes the real lack of thought going into this topic.
I understand what you're saying but the gist of it is just give up and walk away from a domestic national league. I'm lucky in that I support ACFC and get a lot of enjoyment out of watching the most successful and robust franchise in the competition. I know it must be hard to generate enthusiasm outside of CU and HBU when hardly anyone tunrs up and there's not much to play for. I wish SU was attracting a thousand noisy fans to their impressive covered stadium but sadly it's not the case. My dream is a league of eight sides like ACFC in a really competitive competition with the Fifa Club Wold Cup as a glittering prize. It's there but only really for two or three sides at the most.
But I'm trying to be optimistic in the face of a lot of pessimism. I work in the film industry and that's a professional necessity. We can't go back to a club-based national league as its not financially viable as experience has clearly shown us. The ASBP is the only way forward. But it is tired (outside of ACFC and CU) and it needs major investment. The standard is not "dismal" as some have said and at its best it can be damned exciting.
The ASBP is now seven years old and has been a springboard for a lot of local players into the professional ranks. NZ football will be in a sorry state if we lose it.
Investment by whom in what? That's the major issue here and one on which you are particularly and consistently vague
Personally, I think there's a major flaw in the format. Auckland is too big and has too many strong players to only have 2 teams. 8 sides is too few and actually it's just far too repetitive and boring. Without promotion and relegation, and with majority of funding coming from gaming trusts, clubs are unaccountable and bad performances go unpunished removing the incentives to assemble a great squad. I think you have to find some way to introduce some competition at the bottom - there has to be some reason not to want to finish last.
I agree, Auckland needs a third team (which could come in the form of Auckland United next season) and performances must be rewarded. For ACFC (and possibly CU, HBU and Waitakere) it's the O League and CWC, but the rest have little to play for. If some substantial prize money could be injected that would be an incentive, as would some sort of promotion/relegation. The bottom side should have to playoff maybe against a new franchise wanting in. The format definitely needs boosting. I just don't go along with all the moaners and pessimists who don't think the summer national league is worth anything.
the eredivisie isn't as good as the bundesliga, do they consider themselves a development league?
yes, there is always an element of development in any league, but if our national league is going to to have any meaning or purpose it needs to be competitive and represent the best that we have on these shores
'development' leagues are reserve or youth leagues
i'm tired of this country's obsession with building for the future. we have done that forever now and we have never paused to concentrate on improving the standard and giving the very best kids a chance to learn alongside the best and therefore better prepare them for a tough pro league
To an extent the Eredivisie is a development league in that the best young players move to Bundesliga, EPL etc. That's kind of what I meant for the ASB - let's understand what the limitations are, eg lack of football culture, finances to fund fully pro clubs. So to sum up what I'm trying to say is develop players with the understanding that the best ones will move on to bigger and better things, but it still provides a competitive and worthwhile league for the best local talent
Well said.
Investment by whom in what? That's the major issue here and one on which you are particularly and consistently vague
Personally, I think there's a major flaw in the format. Auckland is too big and has too many strong players to only have 2 teams. 8 sides is too few and actually it's just far too repetitive and boring. Without promotion and relegation, and with majority of funding coming from gaming trusts, clubs are unaccountable and bad performances go unpunished removing the incentives to assemble a great squad. I think you have to find some way to introduce some competition at the bottom - there has to be some reason not to want to finish last.
Investment by whom in what? That's the major issue here and one on which you are particularly and consistently vague
Personally, I think there's a major flaw in the format. Auckland is too big and has too many strong players to only have 2 teams. 8 sides is too few and actually it's just far too repetitive and boring. Without promotion and relegation, and with majority of funding coming from gaming trusts, clubs are unaccountable and bad performances go unpunished removing the incentives to assemble a great squad. I think you have to find some way to introduce some competition at the bottom - there has to be some reason not to want to finish last.
It's all very well saying it should be promotion/relegation so teams have an incentive to build a great squad - but all the lower levels teams are trying to do just that, it's just they have very limited resources. So while it'd be great for either A) increased investment to give the league more resources or B) Less grants given to the two Auckland sides to give the league more parity, simply proposing relegation as an option isn't going to make a difference to the quality of the lower sides on the table unless they have more money to spend in which to strengthen their squads, coaching staff and facilities
It's all very well saying it should be promotion/relegation so teams have an incentive to build a great squad - but all the lower levels teams are trying to do just that, it's just they have very limited resources. So while it'd be great for either A) increased investment to give the league more resources or B) Less grants given to the two Auckland sides to give the league more parity, simply proposing relegation as an option isn't going to make a difference to the quality of the lower sides on the table unless they have more money to spend in which to strengthen their squads, coaching staff and facilities
If there was incentive for promotion and possible World Club Cup participation, I'm sure some 'lower level teams' would find renewed desire for new ways to strengthen. I can think of Wairarapa for one. And a couple more in the Northern Prem. But as things are now, why should they bother?
i haven't had much of a chance to watch much video lately, but i just took the time to watch this game
(auck v cant) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-w5kb28yyA&feature=c4-overview&list=UUrtY7NkeaDfDnKoxw4h8l8A
i know it's only a 12-minute package, but this was very watchable. not only the goalmouth action, but the way the teams were set out and the skill level
and when you consider that some trusted voices on these forums said that it wasn't a great game, i think the asb prem has a lot to be proud of
12 mins out of 90.....
By the same token, the TW v Waitakere game highlights showed that was a good game too but didn't show the million cards dished out.
12 mins out of 90.....
By the same token, the TW v Waitakere game highlights showed that was a good game too but didn't show the million cards dished out.
i haven't had much of a chance to watch much video lately, but i just took the time to watch this game
(auck v cant) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-w5kb28yyA&feature=c4-overview&list=UUrtY7NkeaDfDnKoxw4h8l8A
i know it's only a 12-minute package, but this was very watchable. not only the goalmouth action, but the way the teams were set out and the skill level
and when you consider that some trusted voices on these forums said that it wasn't a great game, i think the asb prem has a lot to be proud of
Thought so too. Of course the "dismal crap" brigade won't agree.
an interesting take on the development of players in a 'soft' league by michael lynch
