New Zealand Men's U-17s

Well said Alf, pretty much agree with much of this.

My opinion, which apparently upsets the locals normally, is:

Against Angola we didn't play particularly well for a variety of reasons and were largely pegged in our own half, but were unlucky not to get something from the game as there was what appeared to be a nailed on penalty turned away by VAR.

Against Brazil we started slowly, but grew into the game and began to dominate even before Brazil went down to 10. Still made errors of course but lads worked their socks off. Even though a 1 nil loss would have been a result that turned heads we felt we deserved at least a point. Unfortunately a couple of late lapses cost us an extra 2 goals.

Against Canada, well, you saw that, and what you say is correct; looking to play the right type of football. I would say some players didn't have a good game by their own standards, including my horse, but we rode our luck, worked really hard, created some chances, and fate gave a slight hint of a smile towards us for the first time.

So yes, I agree, expextations are unrealistic for a country with such a small football population. But I see we are moving in the right direction.

unrealistic? 

This u17 group is way behind the previous group in quality. I expected a drop off, but not this large.

Also, I was angry watching us make a defensive substitution and play with no intent for the last 30. There were a couple crosses in the box and not a single player there?? Horribly negative.

If they had been more adventurous in that last 30 minutes and they conceded a goal you would have been the first one in here complaining that they should have defended the lead.............

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/football/nz-teams/117115849/fifa-under17-world-cup-new-zealand-stay-alive-thanks-to-alex-paulsens-saves

https://www.nzfootball.co.nz/newsarticle/83830

At times you would wonder if this is an under 17 team. It’s like 12 year olds who only pass to their mates.

Nope. clearly you don't know me at all.

I would have praised them for backing themselves to get another, for playing with intent and sympathised with them. I would rather lose a game playing it the right way.

Goal keeper was class. The left back made some nice runs, but aside from that, pretty disappointing.

Garbutt had a good goal, looked ok, but complains constantly.

In a competition across a season of 10-15 games - I agee - play positive and develop.

But this is a knock out tournament - you play for results and the possibility of a better performance in the next round.

So your comment although well-intentioned is naive given the situation.

I don't see anything wrong with shutting shop with say 10 minutes to go, but not with 30.

That's not being naive, but realistic. All we did was invite pressure and provide Canada with possession and opportunity,  that if not for the tightest of off side calls and our keeper having a blinder would have cost us.

Also, another goal would have helped our GD that much more and increased the chances of us going through to the next round.

We were 2nd best... some of this falls on the players, but most falls on the coach. Shows a lack of faith in his players IMO.

This is an U17 competition and relative to NZ's resources, local competitions and future development this needs to be treated as a development first results second competition. Long term results first for our age group U 17 sides is naive given the situation.

Absolutely not, you're viewing it with the wrong lens. It was tactical and low risk trusting in our defensive players and quick transitions to produce a high reward. Canada were chasing the game and the extra defender helped negate their attack, when they lost possession we were going to utilise it on a quick transition to counter attack. 

Where it could have gone wrong is if Canada had levelled early because it could have knocked the confidence out of our players to then possibly have conceded another but even so this meant Canada were always chasing the game while we setup for counter-attacks.

We had many opportunities on the counter and came really close to extending our lead. The style implemented on the day doesn't reflect the full abilities of our players but the result show that our players are now resilient to pressure and it was hard earned. We needed to see the mental toughness in our players and they showed it big time when the results didn't show it earlier games, we all know they have the talent and skills to succeed.

With the results from today, chances of progressing are pretty much nil.

Lol Solomon Islands could still upset Mexico.

With today's results, no extra game for the team as they finish just outside the best of the 3rd place teams.

Or maybe not.

Watching the Mexicans play shows just how far away we were at this tournament. Their individual abilities, their movement as units across the park, their team play, their work rate, you name it was at another level.

We really need to work harder right from the very top administrators to the grassroots coaches. We are capable, but I wonder if we have the ambition collectively to go to a tournament and get out of the group on our own merits.

We showed that at the U20's. We were a quality side, that bar a dodgy call at at the penalty shoot out would have made the quarter finals.

I agree with the setiment that our players by large, did not look up to the level required, which is shame because we are producing better, more technical players that ever before. For the meantime, we may just have to put up with inconsistencies in levels and performances for a while before we see a sustained rise.

I also think the manager needs to take some of the blame. The way we set up to play was negative. Nothing builds confidence in a player that a coach who shows limited faith in you.

With Jose, what I don't get is that he took TW to the club world cup and rolled out a genuine 3-4-2-1 with wingers as wide men

And he went to this tournament where, as @AlfStamp correctly says, the onus is on development not results and plays a very defensive 5-3-2 (for the most part)

I do wish the coaches at U17 level were brave enough to play teams to both the coaches strengths and the players strength and not worry about what the results might be or what people might think. However I do think that needs to be a clearly stated ambition form NZF so that if a result does go pear shaped while a team is trying to play in a long term progressive manner the public arent too hard on them. I wonder if a defensive 532 was a result of fear of results 

The 8-1 drubbing by Argentina just before the tournament started, certainly wouldn't have helped. Not sure what formation they played in that warmup game but probably lead to a more defensive mindset by the coaches.

Brazil verus Mexico final.

Brazil came from 2-0 down to beat France 3-2 in their semi 

Mexico with a win on pens over the Dutch. End ET was 1-1

Oh what might have been.

Funny old game football.

NZ went down 2-0 to Mexico pre tournament to two relatively soft goals, and took Brazil close, but for a couple of late 'schoolboy errors' (without laying blame as these could have happened to any 17 yr old from any team there).

But record books will always show Mexico Brazil in the final, and all the incidentals get lost in the wash.

Incidentals such as we could have easily conceeded four or five to both Angola and Canada you mean ?

Took Brazil close, my arse.

I'll have a pint of what you've been drinking.

I've been drinking mostly water lately.

I'd recommend 30 pints or so across about a week. Helps get rid of toxicity

Did you even watch the game? We're not talking about Angola or Canada. 

We were second best in every game... just how far is debateable.

I was disappointed by the performances of the 17s (particularly vs. Angola)

I was impressed by Stamenic, Strong, Garbett, Paulsen and Randall.

Loved seeing ex nix academy player Pizzuto excel

so OFC qualifiers in September in Fiji?

Who is I the frame at this early stage. 

NZ football landscape has changed abut since lsat round it seems to me; less in the way of NTC camps and more regional based pockets. Or is that just me percept

Looking at this next crop, as seems to be the trend, we have some great young goalkeepers coming through in Joe Knowles and Callum Kennett (both 15). Not sure who will be eligible from the U17 WC squad considering it’s an U16 tournament, but Kennett was in that team. Chase Taylor another possibility, still 15 and been playing firsts for ECB for a while. Hard to think of any other eligible players playing meaningful minutes in Auckland but there’s bound to be a few at the Nix

Here is my understanding of where things are at with the U17MNT.

NZ Football is currently in the process of hiring a coach. 

This is about a month later than when a coach was appointed for the last cycle, but I believe more talent ID work has been done at NZF now than had been done at this stage of the last cycle, so whoever gets the job won't be starting from scratch.

Between the last two National Age Group Tournaments, conversations with the country's only two proper academies, and conversations with federations and clubs, there is plenty of knowledge available.

I would expect an appointment to be finalised in the next week or two, with assistant coach(es) finalised by the end of March.

I would then expect there to be a camp in the April school holidays, followed by one in the July school holidays, then the OFC Championship which starts on September 12. All of that would be the same as during the last cycle.

What happens after that will depend on whether qualification is secured, but the 2021 Fifa Under-17 World Cup is scheduled to take place in Peru, almost certainly at the end of that year.

As I have it, there are two players eligible for this cycle (born 2004-2005) who have already played senior football in a top-tier regional league (NRFL Premier Division, Central League, Mainland Premier League, Football South Premier League, Southern Football League).

Another eight played in the National Youth League last year.

It will be very interesting to see how many 2004- and 2005-born players play senior football in top-tier regional leagues this winter. 

To use an example I can quickly check, the Phoenix/Wellington United and Olé/Western Suburbs gave roughly 2500 minutes to 2002- and 2003-born players in the Central League in 2018. 

I can't see the Phoenix/Lower Hutt City going close to that this season, given the modern makeup of their academy. Olé/Western Suburbs should though.

wow - that'd be Chase Taylor (12 Jan 2004, so just eligible) and who else?

Hope Olé keep the conveyor going

Reports are that Ben Sippola will be the new coach so expect lots of Ole kids to be in the mix.

NZF apparently were not convinced by the last regime and the heavy Phoenix domination of the squad.

Surely that's just swapping from one self-interest group to another?

The Phoenix selections in the last squad were embarassing but swapping it for an Ole selector is just opening up the same risk. Is there no one in new Zealand who could offer an unbiased view and just select the best available players in the age group?  No Hay-esque Auckland private school preference, no overly Phoenix leaning Temple selections and no fill it with Ole to stroke egos selections.

Ridiculous that one of our key age group teams hasn't just selected the best elligible players in the age group from across the whole country for close to a decade.

As an afterthought - Why not let Buckingham do it? His selections seem to be neutral, his record with the 20s was excellent and he has free time now Hay has his cronies helping the full national side become a laughing stock.

Re: the bolded section... really? Some examples?

I have no reason to believe it will be Sippola, but I couldn't think of a better person for the job.

A team stacked with U17's won the Central League, the U16's won the U17 competition undefeated and their U15's came a creditable mid-table.

What they are doing at Ole is working so why not give him the job ?

Whilst I can't speak for the last decade, are you trying to say last year's team was a selection of the best eligible players?

No, with last year's team I would agree with the suggestion that there was an oversized Wellington Phoenix Football Academy influence, at the expense of talented players from Auckland clubs and the Olé Football Academy.

But the idea that similar has happened consistently in 2017/2015/2013/2011/2009 I take issue with. Not to say there haven't been issues, but nothing as egregious as in 2019.

This is far from a perfect measure, as there's an element of survivor bias, but 32 players eligible for 2009 U-17 World Cup onwards have become All Whites and 20 of them played at U-17 World Cups. 10 of the other 12 played at an U-20 World Cup and seven of those were in the younger year of their U-17 cohort, where there's a worldwide bias against them.

Oh yeah?  Who? Verney excepted, who I rate highly.

People are under the false impression there was an "oversized Phoenix" contingent. Those boys were THERE because they were considered some of the best around they were NOT selected because they were there.

Bark and Drake weren't there until after the qualifying, which they both attended, Paulson Naiker and Old just a bit before, already in the frame, all out of Auckland BECAUSE they were considered some of the best prospects, as were Hillis and van Hattum from Nelson and Taranaki respectively.

Leaving aside Kennet, who was younger #3 GK going for the experience, that leaves 2, who were probably considered among best capital prospects along with the top Ole boys - most of which were also "Imports", there also because they are talented players.

Phoenix and Ole run professional academies and head hunt the best players and I would expect the bulk of the squad to come from there ultimately. But not every player invited made the cut, some invited but didn't accept did, as did some not even invited. 

Didn't see any of this sensationalist bollocks for girl squads that have 19/21 from Auckland, or 9/21 from Forrest Hill Milford.

I might have more to say, but I'll leave this here to start.

Best-represented cities and clubs, NZU17MNT World Cup squads

2007: Auckland 10, Western Suburbs 6
2009: Auckland 14, Central United 6
2011: Auckland 13, Asia-Pacific Football Academy 5
2013: Auckland 15, Multiple clubs 3
2015: Auckland 12, Wellington Phoenix/Olé Football Academy 4
2017: Auckland 10, Onehunga Sports 5
2019: Wellington 14, Wellington Phoenix 10

Best-represented cities and clubs, NZU17WNT World Cup squads

2008: Auckland 17, Glenfield Rovers 6
2010: Auckland 14, Metro 6
2012: Auckland 10, Coastal Spirit/Waterside Karori 4
2014: Auckland 9, Claudelands Rovers/Lynn-Avon United 3
2016: Auckland 13, Eastern Suburbs/Forrest Hill Milford 3
2018: Auckland 10, Forrest Hill Milford 4

Edit: Oh, and the example of an under-20 women's team, where an Auckland club picks up non-Aucklander adults moving to the city where the U-20 national team is trying to put a regular training programme together, is incomparable. Not that there are any "sensationalistic bollocks" anywhere here, but that's why there was no outrage about that.

That is EXACTLY comparable, because that is EXACTLY what is happening with the boys, (with the semantic exception that it's not about putting a NZ age group team together it's about player development) just at a younger age, because:

a) there are the facilities for the boys to go at a younger age and 

b) parents are less reluctant about sending boys off at a younger age.

That's not a semantic exception – it is literally an acknowledgment that the two types of moves were for entirely different purposes (not to mention among two different age-groups and genders).

In 2014, we have players identified by NZF moving to Auckland for the age-group programme, then joining a strong local club to play for besides.

In 2019, we have players identified by the Phoenix moving to Wellington to join its academy. Then the age-group programme takes place on top of that – with the academy head as an assistant coach.

2002-born players recruited by WPFA obviously had a certain level of talent to be identified and recruited. For players based in places like New Plymouth, it's a no-brainer. WPFA is indeed absolutely hoovering up non-Auckland players.

But they are not the only good 2002-born players in New Zealand, nor necessarily the best.

Looking at how and where players were playing in 2019, there was therefore plenty of skepticism about the final makeup of the World Cup squad. 

There were players standing out in Northern League and Central League action who missed out to WPFA players who barely played Central League. 

We're talking about 2 or 3 instances here, maybe 4. Some of this is in the eye of the beholder. Throw in the unprecedented situation of taking a next-cycle keeper, and you end up with a 10-strong Phoenix contingent when 6 or 7 might have been a more accurate reflection of performances and talent to date.