I see, so teams are admitted rather than promoted to the A League from the NST.
Lots of things still to work out I'm sure, but creating a 20-24 team league and cleaving it in half all of a sudden seems a bit funny?
It won't be that big to start with. Honestly I'll be amazed if there are any more than 10-12 teams for the first season. The big problem is that some of the Australian state federations are kicking up a fuss and saying that they'll expel any clubs from the state leagues whose first teams go up into the NST.
Not a NST of 20-24 teams but eventually the ALM split in two (A1 & A2) so 20-24 teams possibly, with pro/rel between A1 & A2
I dont really understand the need to split the league when you reach 20-24 teams? How do you make that call that suddenly 12 teams that have been in the top flight end up in a second division?
It means that in the middle of that group there's actually something to fight for with promotion/relegatio rather than anyone outside the top six of a twenty team league just existing and having no real reason to be competitive near the end of the season. It simply reduces the dead rubber matches while still providing more pro opportunities for players.
Being in the A2 second tier, clubs will still be part of the A League. And presumably will still play A1 teams in like some preseason Cup comp with pools, or similar. Then at the end of the season there are also A1/A2 pro/rel playoffs that might involve 2-3 teams from each division.
What will be crucial is that all ALM clubs whether A1 or A2 have to operate within the same salary cap, and receive the same slice of TV rights money etc etc. So hopefully there would be regular movement between the divisions - so if say the Nix were relegated to A2 after a bad season, is no reason why promotion back to A1 quickly shouldn't be achieveable.
that's kinda my point, if both leagues are gonna be the same, the what is the point of having promtion relegation?, you may as well have a 20 team league. If there is some financial drop in salary cap etc the promotion/relegation makes sense, but at that point splitting an existing league in half to create this scenario is hugely unfair on the teams relegated to create the second tier.
The only way I can see this working and the existing clubs agreeing to it, will be allowing the current aleague expand to 16-18 teams. Once that is achieved you allow relegation from the aleague to the second tier that is being created at present, bottom two or three drop and top team and two others (decided by playoff or just season position) come up - simple. There is no way the existing clubs will accept being dropped into a lower division when they have finished higher than bottom of the league.
that's kinda my point, if both leagues are gonna be the same, the what is the point of having promtion relegation?, you may as well have a 20 team league. If there is some financial drop in salary cap etc the promotion/relegation makes sense, but at that point splitting an existing league in half to create this scenario is hugely unfair on the teams relegated to create the second tier.
Because without pro/rel, by halfway through the season teams in the bottom half of a 20 team comp, will have squat to play for as the playoffs become quickly out of reach.
Pro/rel would add a whole different element, and no doubt produce some late season drama as with many leagues around the world. If there are no big financial penalties from dropping down to the A2 tier, then don't see any undue unfairness from being in the 2nd tier. Especially if A2 teams still get some opportunities to play A1 teams, keep traditional derby fixtures alive etc.
As before that might as part of some preseason or even mid season Cup comp, where you group A1 & A2 teams in different pools (NSW pool, VIC pool etc) so derby rivals get to play each other. The MLS & Liga MX had their own mid season combined Cup comp this year
that's kinda my point, if both leagues are gonna be the same, the what is the point of having promtion relegation?, you may as well have a 20 team league. If there is some financial drop in salary cap etc the promotion/relegation makes sense, but at that point splitting an existing league in half to create this scenario is hugely unfair on the teams relegated to create the second tier.
Because without pro/rel, by halfway through the season teams in the bottom half of a 20 team comp, will have squat to play for as the playoffs become quickly out of reach.
Pro/rel would add a whole different element, and no doubt produce some late season drama as with many leagues around the world. If there are no big financial penalties from dropping down to the A2 tier, then don't see any undue unfairness from being in the 2nd tier. Especially if A2 teams still get some opportunities to play A1 teams, keep traditional derby fixtures alive etc.
As before that might as part of some preseason or even mid season Cup comp, where you group A1 & A2 teams in different pools (NSW pool, VIC pool etc) so derby rivals get to play each other. The MLS & Liga MX had their own mid season combined Cup comp this year
I agree with you on the dead rubber games. But from a league/club perspective when you have 20 teams in a league and you decide at some point to split the league into two 10 team leagues, you are literally creating two versions of what we had a few years back. ie a ten team league where you play each other 3 times instead of the normal home/away. Effectively your duplicating the problem you just solved by growing the league to 20 teams. Besides that, the bottom half of the league are not gonna be happy being used to create a second tier league if it is financially worse for them. And if it is just the same then you're running two identical leagues with some silly movement between them at the end of the season - it's ridiculous.
do you see what I mean? there has to be some reason to not want to be relogated, and it's usually the finacial hit you take from loss of tv/sponsor revenue. There also has to be some reward to being promoted, usually tv funding etc. If that doesnt exist ie the leaguea reb the same then there is just no point and you end up with the same meaningless games.
Kind of makes me wonder what goes into deciding how big a top flight league should be... Why is the Scottish Premiership only 12 teams for example ?
Anyway, 12-16 teams per league seems fair for us, but the idea of creating a 20-24 team A-League and then splitting it in half one season just seems so... severe. Surely there must be some collateral damage to doing that.
1) Create an NST to assess the financial viability of historic clubs in the A-League (and improve player development I suppose) 2) Admit viable clubs to the A-League until there are 20-24 teams 3) Split the A-League into two and enact pro/rel
Then we won't see relegation for a very long time surely - we'll have to wait maybe 10 years before the A-league gets that relegation kick up the arse, which I thought was most of the point?
I know it represents more of a financial risk, but surely one-up one-down pro/rel between the A-league and the NST would be achievable in the late 2020s, and would be more in the spirit of the game?
that's kinda my point, if both leagues are gonna be the same, the what is the point of having promtion relegation?, you may as well have a 20 team league. If there is some financial drop in salary cap etc the promotion/relegation makes sense, but at that point splitting an existing league in half to create this scenario is hugely unfair on the teams relegated to create the second tier.
Because without pro/rel, by halfway through the season teams in the bottom half of a 20 team comp, will have squat to play for as the playoffs become quickly out of reach.
Pro/rel would add a whole different element, and no doubt produce some late season drama as with many leagues around the world. If there are no big financial penalties from dropping down to the A2 tier, then don't see any undue unfairness from being in the 2nd tier. Especially if A2 teams still get some opportunities to play A1 teams, keep traditional derby fixtures alive etc.
As before that might as part of some preseason or even mid season Cup comp, where you group A1 & A2 teams in different pools (NSW pool, VIC pool etc) so derby rivals get to play each other. The MLS & Liga MX had their own mid season combined Cup comp this year
I agree with you on the dead rubber games. But from a league/club perspective when you have 20 teams in a league and you decide at some point to split the league into two 10 team leagues, you are literally creating two versions of what we had a few years back. ie a ten team league where you play each other 3 times instead of the normal home/away. Effectively your duplicating the problem you just solved by growing the league to 20 teams. Besides that, the bottom half of the league are not gonna be happy being used to create a second tier league if it is financially worse for them. And if it is just the same then you're running two identical leagues with some silly movement between them at the end of the season - it's ridiculous.
do you see what I mean? there has to be some reason to not want to be relogated, and it's usually the finacial hit you take from loss of tv/sponsor revenue. There also has to be some reward to being promoted, usually tv funding etc. If that doesnt exist ie the leaguea reb the same then there is just no point and you end up with the same meaningless games.
Disagree. There will be a prestige angle to playing in the A1. Plus you will be playing the better teams, who should have the higher quality, bigger drawcard players. The Grand Final will be between the two A1 teams that qualify. Maybe the A2 comp is just round robin with no final - 1st automatically promoted, teams 2nd-4th into pro/rel playoffs.
And yes sponsors will be more attracted to teams in the A1.
Seems some consensus that a 26 game round robin is about ideal. ie 2 rounds of a 14 team comp. Or 3 rounds of a 10 team comp (27 games).
Or again it's 2 rounds of a 10 team comp, plus an elongated joint A1/A2 League Cup comp that has say 8 pool games, with big prize money and marketed prestige - replaces say the FA Cup and comes with an ACL qualifying spot. So again you get close to that 25-27 combined games in a regular season for all clubs. Plus finals & playoffs.
And as to the fairness of 10 teams just suddenly being demoted to an A2 division. Maybe it's done as the average of 3 years results (little complicated yes), with clubs having plenty of warning of the split, and time to prepare.
Again the format sounds similar to how Japan transitioned over time to 3 pro tiers. There is no rush for this to happen. You start with the NST and then when certain teams in that comp are ready they get elevated to the ALM. Again is no rush, and a A1/A2 split may never happen, if some clubs in the NST (now not scheduled to start until 2025) never get to an ALM club ready level.
Sounds good to me- pro/rel with a magic trick that allows clubs or franchises to go up from below, but no original franchises relegated past professional level.
Lots to play for. Many more significant and meaningful games that really test footballers. Being able to celebrate Auckland’s relegation. Looking forward to a Christchurch team. I’d love a second cup mid-season and a longer season tbh and more synchronized teams surely makes that more viable.
Some people are making the mistake of putting too much emphasis on what the fans want. Reality will be what the club owners, financiers, sponsors etc want as the top priorities in decision making. Its a business and they will seek to keep fans invested by providing a top on field product rather than anything else.
Sounds good to me- pro/rel with a magic trick that allows clubs or franchises to go up from below, but no original franchises relegated past professional level.
Lots to play for. Many more significant and meaningful games that really test footballers. Being able to celebrate Auckland’s relegation. Looking forward to a Christchurch team. I’d love a second cup mid-season and a longer season tbh and more synchronized teams surely makes that more viable.
The "NSL tragics" on the Oz football forums are spitting tacks about how there won't be "real" P/R because the franchises won't be allowed to go down
Just spent 4 days in & around Christchurch. My first visit there in over 2 years. Just an anecdotal observation but certainly left there feeling the city may not be that far off being able to setup an A League club.
Greater ChCh has a bigger popn that Greater Wellington, and higher popn growth. Driven it seems mostly by expansion in the Selwyn (Rolleston) and Waimak (Rangiora) districts. Visited Rolleston and got told alot of Brits & Saffas were moving there. For sure Canterbury will foremost remain a rugby province, but seems the demographics are changing more towards football. An increasing immigrant population of all hues.
Plus lots of Cantabs are excitedly looking forward to their shiny new roofed CBD stadium and attending sports events there. It's going to be an impressive edifice, and I see the Nix taking some 'home' games there. Throw in football mad Meyn's cash (the Russia-Ukraine war hopefully finishes at some point), a strengthening Academy at ChCh United and yeah I wouldn't rule out an A League club in Christchurch at all, in the next 3-5 years.
I suspect they themselves probably don't know what the future will look like - the NST after all will shed a lot of light on it's own financial viability. Maybe if it goes surprisingly well they will just say screw it and and add pro/rel directly.
I'm not too worried about what the franchises will think. We don't know what kind of conversations are going on behind the scene.
There's just so much incentive for it in the end. Not only adds a spectacle and a prestige to the competition that no other aussie league has, but could also heal some of the wounds of aussie footballing history by including the ethnic teams again. And I mean what kind of messed up message would it send creating two parallel leagues - one for franchises, and one for historic ethnic clubs - and never intending to link them via pro/rel?!
Honestly kind of riles me up that they added WU and Macarthur when they could have just waited to add historic Sydney/Melbourne clubs this way. But muh growing population corridors :/
Honestly kind of riles me up that they added WU and Macarthur when they could have just waited to add historic Sydney/Melbourne clubs this way. But muh growing population corridors :/
Yes WU both MAC were mistakes driven by derby madness. Though WU might yet get proper crowds & a soul when it's new stadium opens. They have basically been a nomadic road show til now.
But with all the franchise owners paying millions to enter the ALM, you can't just dump pro/rel on them. And with them effectively running the league (APL) they won't allow it anyway. This mooted A1/A2 split concept, seems a pretty fair and well thought through attempt at bringing in pro/rel. Seems to have worked for the J Leagues. But there is no rush to bring same concept into Australian football. The NST clubs will need to be patient.
Was there any sort of split ever in Japan like this? I thought their progression looked more just like what is happening with the NST now.
I don't think you can assume it's a no-go with the franchises. They've probably been having this conversation for a very long time and we don't know what clauses have been added into various licenses and license renewals.
It's natural that they would want to be protected in all circumstances from relegation beneath the NST - but I think pro/rel between the NPLs and NST is probably a bit of a long shot anyway.
My lazy research on the J Leagues extends to Wiki. But it has a pretty detailed & hopefully accurate description of how they built their 3 tier (J1, J2, J3) pyramid.
Sounds a bit similar to APL's planned A1 & A2 model. The Japanese came up with a 100 year plan to 2092!
Changes in the number of clubs promotion and relegation system
J1 Entry playoffs have been introduced from 2018, 2019 and 2022 respectively. Relegation from J1 to J2 introduced from 1999, J2 to J3 introduced from 2013 and J3 to JFL introduced from 2023. J1 Promotion playoff introduce from 2012 to 2017, reintroduced in 2023 onwards and J2 Promotion playoff to be introduce start from 2024.
In 1998, the J1 entry decision match was held. From 1999, a replacement system was introduced with the transition to a two-part system of J1 and J2. Since 2012, a replacement system has been introduced between J2 and the lower league (Japan Football League (JFL) in 2012, J3 after the 2013 postseason).
Until the introduction of the J.League club license system in 2012, if a J2 club that obtained the right to be promoted to J1 through the examination by the J.League did not meet J1 standards, the promotion to J1 would be revoked, and the relegation to J2 from the 16th place in J1 would also be revoked. could have been used, but there have been no cases in which it has actually been applied.
If a club that has received a loan from the official match stable holding fund cannot repay it by the repayment date, the club belonging to J1 will be demoted to J2 even if it is in the order to remain in J1, and the club belonging to J2 will be promoted to J1. However, the promotion will be postponed. It is unknown whether promotion will be postponed even if it is a rank that can be promoted to J2 in the clubs belonging to J3. However, at the end of the 2021 season, the only cases in which this system could have been applied in the past were Oita in 2013.
After the 2012 postseason (entry in 2013), in order to enter the J1, J2 and J3 leagues, it is necessary to obtain a license for that league or higher under the club license system.
If the number of matches that have been completed does not reach 75% of the total number of matches scheduled for the year in the J1/J2/J3 league, or if the number of matches in the category to which one belongs falls short of 50% of the total number of matches scheduled for that year. If there is a club that does not exist, the tournament will be disqualified and no promotion or relegation will take place.
Somehow I dont see aleague clubs doing that. Even if the owners say they want us around I still get the feeling they waont actually do anything to help the club or football in NZ. Some of the NRL clubs like Brisbane actually go out of their way to show the support and gratitude for the Warriors.
The initial National Second Division will be made up of only Victorian and New South Wales clubs, with franchises from Queensland and Tasmania also vying to be in the mix [@FTBLcomau]. https://t.co/BJSwsqyMho
Football Australia officially announces the selection of eight foundation clubs for the inaugural National Second Tier (NST) competition, set to commence in March/April 2025.... In early 2024, the focus will shift to selecting an additional 2-4 clubs through a refined application process, ensuring a sustainable and diverse composition of clubs for the inaugural NST season. .. Two competition formats are under consideration for the inaugural season, contingent upon the successful selection of additional clubs next year:
A 10-team competition with two rounds plus a Finals Series, totalling 18 regular season matches.
A 12-team competition with two rounds plus a Finals Series, totalling 22 regular season matches.
So teams from Sydny and Melbourne and 2 from Victoria
For now. 2-4 more teams to be added, from who knows where.
you'd hope they were from a loittle further afield.
It's not that hard to have an actual read of the link above.
Whilst the likes of Victorian state league premiers Avondale FC and their NSW counterparts APIA Leichhardt appear locked in, along with South Melbourne, Marconi Stallions, Sydney Olympic, Sydney United,Wollongong Wolves and Preston Lions, sources suggest at least two other teams - likely franchises from Tasmania and Queensland - will be vying to join them before the new competition kicks off in March-April 2025 - a delay of 12 months from the original plan.
So teams from Sydny and Melbourne and 2 from Victoria
For now. 2-4 more teams to be added, from who knows where.
you'd hope they were from a loittle further afield.
It's not that hard to have an actual read of the link above.
Whilst the likes of Victorian state league premiers Avondale FC and their NSW counterparts APIA Leichhardt appear locked in, along with South Melbourne, Marconi Stallions, Sydney Olympic, Sydney United,Wollongong Wolves and Preston Lions, sources suggest at least two other teams - likely franchises from Tasmania and Queensland - will be vying to join them before the new competition kicks off in March-April 2025 - a delay of 12 months from the original plan.
link took me nowhere useful, hence why i was uncertain.
The B-League will be close to as big as the A-League when it rolls up, they are going in opposite directions and the crowds will without a doubt be as big as the A-League - bar the A-League finals. Well overdue and a sensible decision to start it in 2025 as opposed to 2024
The B-League will be close to as big as the A-League when it rolls up, they are going in opposite directions and the crowds will without a doubt be as big as the A-League - bar the A-League finals. Well overdue and a sensible decision to start it in 2025 as opposed to 2024
will be a bit of a concern in the 2nd tier crowds are bigger on average than the 1st tier
The B-League will be close to as big as the A-League when it rolls up, they are going in opposite directions and the crowds will without a doubt be as big as the A-League - bar the A-League finals. Well overdue and a sensible decision to start it in 2025 as opposed to 2024
will be a bit of a concern in the 2nd tier crowds are bigger on average than the 1st tier
That is exactly what the NSL nostalgists on the Aus football forums are predicting, that it will actually eclipse and render the A-League irrelevant. But they're *also* predicting that the exclusion of non-NSW/VIC teams from the starters (which seems to be down mainly to state federations like QLD being fudgewits about things) will ruin everything, so I don't see how both can be true at once
... I just remembered where all this seems familiar, the "ACFC Knitting Circle" people from 10-15 years ago who resented the Nix for taking attention and funding away from Coal Face Dinkum Kiwi Football (funded by a dodgy pokies trust)
The B-League will be close to as big as the A-League when it rolls up, they are going in opposite directions and the crowds will without a doubt be as big as the A-League - bar the A-League finals. Well overdue and a sensible decision to start it in 2025 as opposed to 2024
will be a bit of a concern in the 2nd tier crowds are bigger on average than the 1st tier
That is exactly what the NSL nostalgists on the Aus football forums are predicting, that it will actually eclipse and render the A-League irrelevant. But they're *also* predicting that the exclusion of non-NSW/VIC teams from the starters (which seems to be down mainly to state federations like QLD being fudgewits about things) will ruin everything, so I don't see how both can be true at once
... I just remembered where all this seems familiar, the "ACFC Knitting Circle" people from 10-15 years ago who resented the Nix for taking attention and funding away from Coal Face Dinkum Kiwi Football (funded by a dodgy pokies trust)
The crowds are going to come from VIC derby and NSW games, so where the rest of the teams come from is irrelevant. I think you'll see 15k for the likes of South v Preston, South v Knights (if they make it in), Marconi v Sydney United 10k etc. Don't agree with them that it will make the A-league irrelevant but certainly quite a few people here that would go to one of the above B-League games and wouldn't go to watch an A-League game that it will grow from
