All Whites v China | Thurs 23rd March | 7.00pm | Mt Smart

siac

Was Rojas available today or injured/ill? I thought he was in the squad; for a team that hasn't scored a goal in 600+ mins (and counting) it's outrageous not to give our most attacking/creative player (especially when Singh is out) any minutes.

He’s a squad specialist. He was expert in a similar manner in the playoff. 

As an aside, why are we taking a step back to 80s with our uniform? I thought we were going in the right direction with these:

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or these...

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And i like this as a concept:

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Np

wilbaker

Idk why Smith was expecting sail to get that was so much closer to him

 Sails movement initially indicated he wanted to come but didn't...

It was an awfully under hit pass by Pijnaker. I blame him the most. He has at least one of those sort of errors every game it seems. Cuts them out he'll go to a higher level. He doesn't and he won't.

Stays 11 v 11, and I think AWs may have scored at last. Started to look promising again briefly when Bell & Just came on just before the send off. Was a really nice passing move down the left there at one point. But the team badly needs Singh. Both for the occasional killer pass, and the top notch swinging set piece. He's just a class apart.

Ted Striker

YoungHeartHM

Ted Striker

YoungHeartHM

Ted Striker

siac

When Wood was ruled out it was always likely to be 0-0. The lack of goals we score is dire.  That's like 600+ mins now? I'm pretty sure even before that our last goal against a non oceania team was from a pen. As I said before the match, I'd rather lose 4-2. That was boring, not going to help with future crowds.

Personally I would not even play Wood as he has been so completely out of form but would play Rojas as a striker. 

 You're an absolute mad man...

 There is a fine line between madness and genius.

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ok lets see what happens when Wood plays the second match and if he scores a goal from open play.

That may be the case, but then surely you apply the same logic across to Rojas? He has played 86 club minutes (16% of all available) since the start of last month. If he's not injured - which could explain not being used - then he quickly fell out of favour.

Even if you look at his All Whites career, the enduring memory in my head of Rojas is beating three players then getting tackled by the fourth, rather than playing it or shooting. He has four international goals and only one against non-OFC opposition.

I do agree more emphasis should be placed on form, look at Garbett versus Barbarouses today. McCowatt has been starring since the winter break and Bell has been playing well too - why not have them in midfield? Stamenic is a good player, but he's played only eight competitive minutes since October. Eventually that will catch up to you.

I swear , it looked like more than half of the crowd was Chinese. 

AucklandPhoenix

I don’t mind Just, but a fit Thomas in the midfield further forward with Garrett, with Bell and StameNic, holding, I think isn’t bad at all for a starting eleven. Getting them all the pitch may be tricky injury wise however 

Friar Tuck

Begging we dump Bazeley and get key players back to fitness. This team has the potential to do some damage, but I worry that we’ll never get to see it come to fruition.

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Elliot, Just and GK the weak spots, plus that defence isn’t nearly as formidable as the Reid/Nelsen days, but still a team capable of playing well and scoring goals (something we haven’t seen in a long time).

Oh yeah, always forget about Thomas. Really hope we can see him back in the white shirt soon.

Seen the highlights now after reading the text during the game and Ben Old still was the best player on the park! 

Why, if you select Kosta up front, would you decide to bomb it in to him? Plenty of decent playmakers in the team now and several of them in decent form- Garbett, McCowatt, Rojas, Lewis, Just, Elliot, Cacace… short fast dude who wants ball to feet or in front of him. These players are good enough to do that. 

carlind

Ted Striker

YoungHeartHM

Ted Striker

YoungHeartHM

Ted Striker

siac

When Wood was ruled out it was always likely to be 0-0. The lack of goals we score is dire.  That's like 600+ mins now? I'm pretty sure even before that our last goal against a non oceania team was from a pen. As I said before the match, I'd rather lose 4-2. That was boring, not going to help with future crowds.

Personally I would not even play Wood as he has been so completely out of form but would play Rojas as a striker. 

 You're an absolute mad man...

 There is a fine line between madness and genius.

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ok lets see what happens when Wood plays the second match and if he scores a goal from open play.

That may be the case, but then surely you apply the same logic across to Rojas? He has played 86 club minutes (16% of all available) since the start of last month. If he's not injured - which could explain not being used - then he quickly fell out of favour.

Even if you look at his All Whites career, the enduring memory in my head of Rojas is beating three players then getting tackled by the fourth, rather than playing it or shooting. He has four international goals and only one against non-OFC opposition.

I do agree more emphasis should be placed on form, look at Garbett versus Barbarouses today. McCowatt has been starring since the winter break and Bell has been playing well too - why not have them in midfield? Stamenic is a good player, but he's played only eight competitive minutes since October. Eventually that will catch up to you.

Mainly because Rojas is more skillful with the ball at his feet than Wood and quicker. So a Rojas not playing many minutes recently vs an out of form Wood, nursing an injury, I would go for Rojas. Rojas goal scoring tally is not high for the all whites as he is not being played as a striker (even though Rory Fallon only scored 6 in his entire career) so it would mean doing something different on the attacking side. Like you mention, if we have any All Whites player who can beat three men under any situation we should utilize it in attack. I remember a moment like the one that are talking about with Rojas too. He cut open the Mexican defense beating 2 or 3 players but did not get his final shot off. I would like to put him in more of those positions. It may not work at all but we know exactly what we get with an attacking formation headed by Wood and it is also a friendly so why not try it?

Garbett seems to be playing well in Holland, but he's only had 3 games. He has 1 senior goal in his whole career. He's got a sharkload more to learn you feel, in & around the box. Rojas ain't playing in Chile. Lewis has just returned from injury. Just is getting 10-30 min bench cameos in Denmark. Only McCowatt of that lot would you call in form and with a good pro scoring record. He could start in midfield on Sunday.

Elliot & Cacace 2 of the best tonight, but they ain't playmakers.

Anyway lets see how the AWs go with more time together, hopefully keeping 11 on the park, and touchwood Christopher Grant W is fit.

They have had a good look at the Chinese now. They had limited intel before the game. If there are not obvious improvements come Sunday, with some tactical tweaks on how to unlock their defence - then yeah Bazeley definitely ain't right for the gig permanently.

The U23 game was actually a lot more enjoyable to watch. They tried moving the ball out of defence with better intent at times.
Have we become a bit too safe and do we need to be taking more risks at moving the ball forward. A bit better ball speed out from the back would help.

I had high hopes but it appears Bazball in cricket and Bazball in football aren't at all the same. Absolutely lacking any creativity or attacking threat. For all the possession and time spent near the box in the first half I don't think we actually created any true jump off your chair because a goal is looking on chances. Maybe it's just something about Mt Smart stadium and nil all draws but I fear it's much worse than that. Got to see something different in the next game.

AucklandPhoenix

I don’t mind Just, but a fit Thomas in the midfield further forward with Garrett, with Bell and StameNic, holding, I think isn’t bad at all for a starting eleven. Getting them all the pitch may be tricky injury wise however 

Friar Tuck

Begging we dump Bazeley and get key players back to fitness. This team has the potential to do some damage, but I worry that we’ll never get to see it come to fruition.

BC71F6D3-FF4A-444A-A7D3-DA97D475C4AD.jpeg 388.14 KB

Elliot, Just and GK the weak spots, plus that defence isn’t nearly as formidable as the Reid/Nelsen days, but still a team capable of playing well and scoring goals (something we haven’t seen in a long time).

Updated best XI (and subs) on the basis of your suggestion:

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In terms of goalkeepers, I’d be tempted to pick a Tzanev/Crocombe combo based on current form. Both only in League 2 but both in career best form.

My take on the match for what it's worth:

Ranix

The U23 game was actually a lot more enjoyable to watch. They tried moving the ball out of defence with better intent at times.
Have we become a bit too safe and do we need to be taking more risks at moving the ball forward. A bit better ball speed out from the back would help.

I thought the exact same. There was intent to move the ball and they were no where near as one dimensional as their senior side was this evening. Created a lot more chances as well, on another day we get another 1-2 goals and it's an absolute rout.

It's early days of course, but hell, I reckon it's worth a shot looking to get someone like Jay Herdman in an AW's squad in the near future. He's bright and energetic, gets involved and runs a lot of heads up, forward moving/progressive play. He ran that show today and he was the youngest on the pitch!

Would take him over someone like Kosta in a heartbeat at the minute...

drove up a couple of hours and wish i never did...absolute garbage. If thats Bazelys personality on the team then get rid asap. One of the worst performances on home soil. Seriously dire. You may say I'm not a true fan...im sorry but that was an eye hurt. Atmosphere non existent. Hopefully a trip to Wellington with the better players starting brings better outcomes.

YoungHeartHM

Ranix

The U23 game was actually a lot more enjoyable to watch. They tried moving the ball out of defence with better intent at times.
Have we become a bit too safe and do we need to be taking more risks at moving the ball forward. A bit better ball speed out from the back would help.

I thought the exact same. There was intent to move the ball and they were no where near as one dimensional as their senior side was this evening. Created a lot more chances as well, on another day we get another 1-2 goals and it's an absolute rout.

It's early days of course, but hell, I reckon it's worth a shot looking to get someone like Jay Herdman in an AW's squad in the near future. He's bright and energetic, gets involved and runs a lot of heads up, forward moving/progressive play. He ran that show today and he was the youngest on the pitch!

Would take him over someone like Kosta in a heartbeat at the minute...

Friar Tuck

AucklandPhoenix

I don’t mind Just, but a fit Thomas in the midfield further forward with Garrett, with Bell and StameNic, holding, I think isn’t bad at all for a starting eleven. Getting them all the pitch may be tricky injury wise however 

Friar Tuck

Begging we dump Bazeley and get key players back to fitness. This team has the potential to do some damage, but I worry that we’ll never get to see it come to fruition.

BC71F6D3-FF4A-444A-A7D3-DA97D475C4AD.jpeg 388.14 KB

Elliot, Just and GK the weak spots, plus that defence isn’t nearly as formidable as the Reid/Nelsen days, but still a team capable of playing well and scoring goals (something we haven’t seen in a long time).

Updated best XI (and subs) on the basis of your suggestion:

A578F487-E961-4039-B323-590E300D6E43.jpeg 437 KB

In terms of goalkeepers, I’d be tempted to pick a Tzanev/Crocombe combo based on current form. Both only in League 2 but both in career best form.

Any room for an in form James McGarry and Sam Sutton as backups?

Unpopular opinion it seems - we were boring but we weren't particularly bad. 

After that I'm just happy that Darren is doing his very best to make it impossible for NZF to give him the job full time. 

Playing three at the back in a home friendly against China when we are (apparently?) trying to break a goal drought is moronic. As is playing Payne and Pijnaker at CB when you have Boxall on the bench. Starting Kosta was nonsensical given he's not in form and given what he did vs CR. Not using Rojas at all is bizarre. He was the A-League assist king just last season. 

Mata should have been dragged much earlier, he was invisible. He's certainly not the answer to the Wood alternative question. 

If I was picking the xi for Sunday I'd have Sail, Elliott, Payne (would have Smith but presume he is suspended), Boxall, Cacace; Bell, Stamenic, Lewis; Rojas, Grieve, Just. Garbett loses his spot for not passing to Kosta or Mata in the early minutes. 

Who started this first game was hugely influenced by when players arrived from overseas. It’s why Nix guys Kosta and Rufer got a start. They won’t on Sunday

It was noticeable that when Bell came on there was an immediate lift. He’s playing regularly for his club. Stamenic isn’t. But then Smith got sent off and the game turned on its head.

I’d start Bell, McCowatt and Lewis all together. Greater chance to play quickly through the middle and mix it up, not just shovel it wide. Rufer I thought was slow and decidedly average looking at this level. Garbett is going to be a very good AW, but he didn’t have a good game, and still has a lot to learn.

Ted Striker

Friar Tuck

AucklandPhoenix

I don’t mind Just, but a fit Thomas in the midfield further forward with Garrett, with Bell and StameNic, holding, I think isn’t bad at all for a starting eleven. Getting them all the pitch may be tricky injury wise however 

Friar Tuck

Begging we dump Bazeley and get key players back to fitness. This team has the potential to do some damage, but I worry that we’ll never get to see it come to fruition.

BC71F6D3-FF4A-444A-A7D3-DA97D475C4AD.jpeg 388.14 KB

Elliot, Just and GK the weak spots, plus that defence isn’t nearly as formidable as the Reid/Nelsen days, but still a team capable of playing well and scoring goals (something we haven’t seen in a long time).

Updated best XI (and subs) on the basis of your suggestion:

A578F487-E961-4039-B323-590E300D6E43.jpeg 437 KB

In terms of goalkeepers, I’d be tempted to pick a Tzanev/Crocombe combo based on current form. Both only in League 2 but both in career best form.

Any room for an in form James McGarry and Sam Sutton as backups?

Yeah that lineup is more hypothetical if everyone was fit, but on current form I’d 100% pick Sutton or McGarry over De Vries.

So that’s 6 games in a row that we haven’t scored a single goal. Will be interesting to see how many people are willing to fork out $60+ on Sunday. 

coochiee

Who started this first game was hugely influenced by when players arrived from overseas. It’s why Nix guys Kosta and Rufer got a start. They won’t on Sunday

It was noticeable that when Bell came on there was an immediate lift. He’s playing regularly for his club. Stamenic isn’t. But then Smith got sent off and the game turned on its head.

I’d start Bell, McCowatt and Lewis all together. Greater chance to play quickly through the middle and mix it up, not just shovel it wide. Rufer I thought was slow and decidedly average looking at this level. Garbett is going to be a very good AW, but he didn’t have a good game, and still has a lot to learn.

I thought Rufer was excellent. And Stamenic was even better but faded. I love watching Stamenic play. Bell for Rufer in the next game and we have ourselves our top combo. If he ditch a centre back, a third guy can come in.

lthomas20

Unpopular opinion it seems - we were boring but we weren't particularly bad. 

Well Bazeley & Wood didn't come out and say "We.Will.Beat.China" and then lose 0-5. 
So that's something.

I was at the game - we played some tidy stuff at times and kept the ball well but I'm not sure what our plan was to open up the Chinese defense and actually score some goals. Libby was our most dangerous player but faded in the second half. Think he had our only shot on target? 

Mata was incredibly isolated up front & just got no service. No disrespect but I'm not sure he's the type of player to play target man. Needed some help. 

Appreciate half the team only got in a day or 2 beforehand so always hard in that regard. But would be hoping for a more "ambitious" approach on Sunday. 

Would start by switching to 4 at the back and two up top (Hopefully one of those being Wood!). With how defensive China were I really don't think we needed 3 CBs and should have changed it up at halftime. 

We have plenty of talent in midfield, so shuffling player around there like some are suggesting is not going to change alot. Some players need to be a bit braver in possesion. An example for me in that second half. Just did incredible well to work the ball past 3 china players in midfield and get on the front foot (brave play). Got a great pass away to Grieve who received the ball at feet. But Grieve then selected to pass back to our centre back (not brave) and undoing all the good work from Just.
One of our best on park was Cacace. Happy to run at players (Brave play), not always successfully, but on occasions created good space and attacking opportunity.
Without Wood we are lacking a genuinely experienced number 9. And any understudy we have is still a ways off real international level. So developing options there is the big workon for this team in this WC cycle. That being said I don't mind seeing Mata given a run up there.
When I saw Kostas name on the start sheet. At first I was hoping he would have a blinder get a goal and turn his form around (For the Nix sake). He was lively but ultimately ineffective. I'd start Rojas or McCowatt in his place for game 2. And if Wood is still not available, I'd give Mata another chance.

I know some are trying to be positive but it was barely international standard. 

Yeah it was boring...bloody boring. We barely gave it a crack - no risk safe dire sharke

Bazeley playing safe to try get the gig?

Wood and Rojas and Bell will make a difference....hopefully.

It can only get better.....

I feel I watched a different game. The first 45 minutes in particular showed a lot of promise, in what became a very tough gameplan from the Chinese.

For the first 60 minutes the chinese defended so deep, that 21 of 22 players were all in the same half. It is no suprise we struggled to break them down. Our team does best with short passes, time to turn, dribble and move. With such a compact defensive formation - our bright talented youngsters couldn't play their game. Hence why it became a question of switching to Cacace and Elliott to try to create something.

We moved the ball around decently, but needed to up the tempo with some ball speed to cause a well-drilled chinese side to make some mistakes. 

Was pleasently surprised at Rufer in this game, having thought international football would be a step too far for him. Whilst not our first team choice, I think he will play a big part in any 2026 qualification.

Heard Simon Elliot say in an interview this morning that the Smith/Sail mix up is simply a danger of playing positive football. I fail to see how there was anything particularly positive about the football we played. Control isn't the same as attack.

Anyway, I think that really just shows the sort of mindset we have making decisions with this team. They aren't particularly ambitious.

McCowatt has been playing midfield of late with Helsingor. It's only the Danish 2nd tier, but seems he's in good form over there. We now know China are going to sit deep like a Costa Rica, and try the counter. I'd yipe go 4 at the back, and bring McCowatt into midfield with Bell, and Lewis. Stamenic is class, but hasn't played regularly since about October last year.

Hopefully Rojas is fit. Odd that he hasn't played the last month at Colo Colo. Strange. Just another who hasn't played much football of late. I'd go Greive alongside Mata (who yes was all isolated yesterday), and either Just or Garbett tucked in behind. Wood obviously in for Mata if fit.

Hopefully a few more days together, and all the guys over their jetlag, plus 11 staying on the pitch will produce goals & a win. And Kyle Adams deserves a 20 min sub debut no matter the score, otherwise twice flying over from the US for nought. These are friendlies after all, so lets get a glimpse of him at least.

Some of thre negativity on here is so bizarre. Lets take a bit of a reality check with this game:

firstly, the Chinese team have been in camp for 3 weeks, playing together multiple times - we literally had players landing in NZ the day before the game, so it's not shocking that China looked more organised for chunkc of the game.
Secondly, China's tactic before our red card was to have all 11 players defending when we had the ball, hence the back and forth passing between our back, trying to draw the chinese players out of their shape to create space, it worked in the first half and when we found space we managed decent balls into the attacking zones - defensivy the Chinese were good and we were lacking in cohesiveness. It happens. Payne was being used as the main distributor for most of the first 60 odd minutes, and he made some decent threatening passes, we missed having a real target man up front (Wood), so if that is the plan on Sunday hopefully the Woodsman is available.

Sure we havent scored in around a year, but lets be honets here - we are not the flashiest team in the world, we do not have an abundance of strikers scoring 20+ goals a seaon in their league. Our best is currently only playing as a substitue in the EPL. 
International football is not like the video games - scoring 6 goals or having 30+ shots is unrealistic - especially if you are playing a team that is set up defensively.

Yes it would be nice to see us play more attacking football but right now I think we are stuck in  aholding pattern until we have a new coach announced. 
Bazely was never gonna change it up too much because losing would be the killer to his hopes of getting the job.

We all need to chill! It's year one after the world cup - we have three years to build something with the players we have - and then we get to beat up on tiny tiny nations for a couple of weeks before we get to play the real footballing nations again.

What am I missing with everyone talking Garbett up so highly? He has a swag of cheerleaders in the press and in the commentary box but what has he done to deserve all the adulation? What has he done in an All Whites shirt and when last has he scored a goal at a decent level? His failure to cut the ball back when he was one on one with the keeper at an acute angle is an u9 error and one that an international player should not be making...never mind one that is rated so highly. Strange that the commentators just glossed over the error. At best he is a box-to-box midfielder and nowhere near a Thomas, Singh, Just or dare I say it Ben Old if you want to create anything higher up the park.

JUSTSAYING

What am I missing with everyone talking Garbett up so highly? He has a swag of cheerleaders in the press and in the commentary box but what has he done to deserve all the adulation? What has he done in an All Whites shirt and when last has he scored a goal at a decent level? His failure to cut the ball back when he was one on one with the keeper at an acute angle is an u9 error and one that an international player should not be making...never mind one that is rated so highly. Strange that the commentators just glossed over the error. At best he is a box-to-box midfielder and nowhere near a Thomas, Singh, Just or dare I say it Ben Old if you want to create anything higher up the park.

He’s created 9 chances and earned 3 assists in 391 minutes over 6 games in the Netherlands. He set up and assisted Chris Wood’s disallowed goal vs Costa Rica, he scored the All White’s last goal in the OFC final vs the Solomon Islands and in the space of like 2 years went from a random player at Ole to pulling the strings for the All Whites vs Peru and Costa Rica.

I agree that he’s not as good as Thomas or Singh, but he also generally has to play out of position for the All Whites due to the presence of Bell and Stamenic and the absence of Singh.

What is Garbett's best position?  Wasn't he like a striker for U17s & played there in Sweden? I feel like Thomas he can fit in a number of roles. Like Thomas he doesn't score much. But unlike Thomas he's still very young at 20 with a shark load to learn. I feel in around the box he's still a bit panicky, not always choosing the right options, and his shooting ain't flash.

His assists in Holland have been crosses or long raking passes. He's going to be a really good AW. Top engine and feisty. He stood out against both Peru & CR but is still on a big learning curve. That's hardly surprising as he's hardly played the last 18 mths. So great news he's getting good mins at Breda. But I'd try Mata/Wood, Greive & Just initially upfront on Sunday.

His best position is centre midfield

Friar Tuck

JUSTSAYING

What am I missing with everyone talking Garbett up so highly? He has a swag of cheerleaders in the press and in the commentary box but what has he done to deserve all the adulation? What has he done in an All Whites shirt and when last has he scored a goal at a decent level? His failure to cut the ball back when he was one on one with the keeper at an acute angle is an u9 error and one that an international player should not be making...never mind one that is rated so highly. Strange that the commentators just glossed over the error. At best he is a box-to-box midfielder and nowhere near a Thomas, Singh, Just or dare I say it Ben Old if you want to create anything higher up the park.

He’s created 9 chances and earned 3 assists in 391 minutes over 6 games in the Netherlands. He set up and assisted Chris Wood’s disallowed goal vs Costa Rica, he scored the All White’s last goal in the OFC final vs the Solomon Islands and in the space of like 2 years went from a random player at Ole to pulling the strings for the All Whites vs Peru and Costa Rica.

I agree that he’s not as good as Thomas or Singh, but he also generally has to play out of position for the All Whites due to the presence of Bell and Stamenic and the absence of Singh.

 Yeah decent, but not sure those stats justify all the airtime he gets.  If he was as good as all his cheerleaders suggest he would have been picked up by a decent English Club as was rumored in the press some time ago. If he is behind Stamenic and Bell which I agree with, don't think he is at the level where we have to play him, as don't think either him or Kosta offer enough in the top third to provide much of a threat going forward 

reg22

Just like the All Whites, the commentary has completely fallen to peices - all Chinese players are now called "China"

I was wondering when they would say it's time for NZ to have some subs to control the growing Chinese threat.

Garbett has got assists because he’s had well drilled tough 2nd division strikers who have a lot of competition for their place to get in good positions and control a ball and hammer or finesse a shot home. 

He’s played well, runs well with the ball at his feet, is strong and passes well. He shouldn’t be asked to score the goals too. 

For the moment I think he passes well when in an open space and has a bit of time to make a choice. In tighter spaces in and around the box, less so. But he’s still young, and barely played the last 18 mths. Lots of upside hopefully. Feisty attitude which is great. I’m a fan

Might have said this, but in 2010 we had a one peg Vicelich and Andy Barron, but four decent strikers playing professionally. 

Now we have unprecedented midfield wealth, but few established strikers getting on the end of anything. 

And players like Smeltz made sure they weren’t getting in each other’s way- they were a cast of complementary characters. 

I’m not so sure our midfield is all complementary. 2010 we got a formation to play to our squad strengths. Not sure what that’d be here either.