Asian Confederation.

Asian Confederation.

havn't seen a poll floated around for this yet.

In principle, this is the only way forward for the AWs and the NZ football.
However, the move is unlikely at this stage, as the precarious finances of NZF and FIFA (at this stage at least) stand in our way. Eventually though, this has to be the aim for NZF.

I agree, we need to move into Asia but with our current financial problems it will sadly have to be later rather than sooner.

totally agree - it is a necessity that if NZF is to succeed then it has to be in the Asian Conferation, as mentioned previuosly $$$ is going to be the issue.

i agree aswell.also were getting into youth tourneys etc. and that should help our game

Mmmm . . .

I can see benefits and risks in this.

As the top OFC football nation we have an easy path into the FIFA world cups at the youth levels and with our football ferns (which is very well ranked, mind you).

With our AW's we have to play friendlies against better nations to set us up with the 5th ranked AFC team to get in the World cup finals.

However, as an AFC nation, our AWs benefit by playing in the Asian cup after qualifying and possibility of our top club or two to participate in the ACL if we are in the top 15 nations.

This is costly business. There is no prizemoney in the AFC Asian cup, other than a $USD40,000 travel subsidy paid for by the AFC. But there is a $USD500,000 money purse as the club winners of the ACL. Presently we get the same amount if one of our club be the OFC club winners of the O-League (less travel expenses) and participation in the CWC.

We could not afford to play all qualification tournaments in AFC. The schedule and cost for Australia, and the great financial pressure that it is causing -there is no way we could not do that. We would then pick and choose a few qualifying tournaments. Even If we made it to the final round of a qualifying tournament, we could struggle to afford to participate in that next stage, and then if we withdraw, then it is a straight $USD100,000 fine from the AFC.

As the top OFC, we could start to keep higher than previous consistency in the FIFA rankings because we don't have to face Australia (who was above us) on a critical game and lose 2/3rds of the time.

I somewhat think that we could make more leverage as the "top OFC nation" billing in getting matches against higher ranked countries and climb the FIFA ranking system which would in turn create more matches.

We could arrange matches against some of the Top 10 AFC teams slowly to climb the FIFA ranks. In the past it has been difficult to play them in the international windows because AFC teams don't strictly follow them, but they are willing to play in non-international windows because they know we can't get our oversea players back for it. However having the Nix in the A-league forms a domestic-based national team to play them. This would help our rankings and pick a few decent FIFA points.

We would get games against top teams in the world in the confederation cup which we otherwise would not get at all. We also would get $USD1,000,000 for completing in the confederation cup. It's very good measure of our national team every 4 years and we would learn a few things from the experience and we would not lost much rankings points against such strong teams. If we get to the 2010 world cup finals, then that is at least $USD4,500,000 minimum windfall.

The reason why Australia left OFC was so they could get a better route to the World Cup. However with FIFA changing the playoffs, we have arguably the same but even easier route than them, and have the financial and competitive benefit of the Confederations Cup.

I don't think FIFA would allow us to leave OFC and expect to retain the OFC. Australia had huge influences that we haven't got, to get in the AFC.

As top OFC nation, we have the incentive of participating in World Cups, Olympic Games etc. to retain our players, and get cut-through with the media/public. There is more advantage for us in OFC and we get their full support to grow our sport and develop our players.

In AFC, our youth and women's football would be struggling with other small, weak AFC nations. The football ferns would lose quality opposition (which we would get in the world cup as OFC) and their rankings would drop.

To participate in the World youth tournament as top OFC will strength us against very strong teams compare to participating in the less stronger AFC teams and just missing out.

We will get a good world ranking if we win our 6 OFC games, participate in the Confederations Cup, play quality frinedlies in 2008 and 2009, and then beat the 5th-placed AFC nation to qualify for the World Cup. This is very possible. And our current world ranking would not from achieve that goal whereas that same ranking would count against us in the AFC.


. . . I vote we should wait and see what happens with the OFC and AFC over time. OFC may not be a long term prospect, but we have to develop and strengthen with the advantages we have in the OFC first before deciding because we are definitely not in the drivers seat by any stretch.

If we are to develop a strong game internationally, then it is the domestic game that we need to work on at glassroots. Since we have an easier access as top OFC, our elite youth players will get good exposure to quality football, but to do well we should develop our glassroots in primary school stage and then develop youth football. Glassroots football is key if we want to retain youth footballers and then work out a system for the youth in schools/club.
AllWhitebelievr2008-01-25 03:09:33

I agree

Well, I completely disagree. Putting aside the financial and administrative issues that clearly prevent us from joining the AFC right now, staying in Oceania does absolutely nothing for the All Whites.
The standard of Oceania international football is terrible - being a top team in Oceania doesn't, and won't, impress anyone. Furthermore, I just can't see how the supposed 'lure' of Oceania in having easier access to youth WOrld Cups and Confederations Cup can do us any good. The reality is that we just get shown up at these tournaments for clearly not being up to standard, and that is not going to change as long as we're in Oceania. So I fail to see the value in reaching these tournaments at the moment since it all it does is show us that we're still far from good enough to be there.
The road to World Cup from Oceania isn't easy - given the current circumstances, for the All Whites to beat the 5th placed Asian team it will require a miracle of significant proportions. Qualifying from Asia would obviously be hard, but it would offer the benefit of regular competition against good opposition (rather than once every four years at Confed Cup), that can only be good for NZ football in the long run.
As for the improvement in the ranking, that's not going to come while we're in Oceania. The reason for this is firstly, the games that bring most points (competetive matches, i.e. WC qualifiers, etc) for us come ony four years, against opposition that's inferior to us, so that doesn't bring many points. The friendlies you suggest aren't helpful at all - they don't bring many ranking points because of their friendly status, and since the All Whites would in all likehood lose about 90% of those games at this point in time, we'd hardly get any points.
The reality is that the AWs are, in international footballing terms, basically minnows. Going to AFC would mean we'd struggle to make any impact, at both junior and senior levels, for a good number of years, but in the long-term it can only be of benefit to NZ football.

NZ should follow Australia and join Asia when they sort their money out. They'd have more fun in the AFC.

Benefit us in the AFC in the long term? You will find that it is nothing but a drain of even more money and we even still be minnows but in AFC rather than OFC and even less of a shot at any FIFA tournament finals when Australia was in OFC. We are not in that position at all.

Well what I see is that by being the top OFC nation we raise our average FIFA to ranking to what australia had before in the OFC. That is it will raise our average ranking as second OFC nation of 100th to the first OFC nation average ranking of 53th. That is almost a given in due time.

Also we don't have as much of a competition rival as we had in Australia. Honestly we need to thrash some of those OFC nations with big scores to be convincing, before we be knocking on the AFC in a power of position. We don't have much on our plate to try for Asian Confederation. We would be turned down flat on our bottoms. They don't think much of us and a couple of them weren't that convinced that Australia should be there as well despite their recent success. If you are think in that NZ has a shot now, then you are kidding yourselves.

Until Australia has a bit of time to prove their mettle in AFC and the Phoenix in the A-League plus any NZ club in the CWC get results, we don't have a show to sell. This includes strengthening the NZFC in a marketable package.

The Asian cup is every 2 years whereas the Confederation cup is every 4 years. But the Olympic Games is also every 4 years, so that fair much evens up the participation. So I don't think that it would be too much improvement.

To be honest. Our problem in OFC is that we combine the World Cup Qualifiers with the Oceania Nation Cup rather than having them being total separate competition.

We should have the Oceania Nation Cup every two years and have the World Cup Qualifiers for the teams that have reach the prior Oceania Nation Cup at the Third Stage. I would even advocate NZ to forgo the free third stage entry and enter a team at the second stage level to make it fair for all OFC nations.

But I would ask that the South Pacific Games should not be doubled up as World Cup qualifier as well. we need high rated games within the Confederation which would create an even large rating difference between the weak and strong teams to our benefit as well as to the top 5 OFC teams.

However interconfederation friendlies are higher rated games for FIFA points than intraconfederation friendlies. This is where we can gain some of our points on top of the WCQ and OFC nations cup games.

I think that will increase the FIFA ranking points over time for the matches as well as making more matches within the OFC Confederation which in turn creates more viable competition and hereby increase regional strength for FIFA rankings.

At the moment, we NEED youth world cups to develop our young players. youth world cups are every two years and some of our youths need to measure themselves against their world football peers as they grow up.

By the time they reach the Olympic games U23 they would have played in both U17 World Cup and U20 World Cup enough to make a solid core of players in each generation. Most of them would eventually be in the All Whites squad and get experience by the time they are in the U23 Olympic Team. This experience can only be good for the national team. A couple of them may even be in the NZFC teams at the CWC. A couple of them will grab contracts with professional clubs because of the scouts that are at these youth world cups.

This would only mean good exposures that otherwise couldn't be possible and it would strength our national team at games in the FIFA international windows. more players in the professional environment and in overseas clubs that would give us plenty of experience players to call upon eventually. This is needed and it how Australia get to where they were, we will naturally get stronger. And frankly we have a easier OFC route though Asia than South America for the World Cup Finals just to top it off.

Yes we are minnows at the moment, but we are big minnows and friendly games outside the confederation is where we get our practice to compete against the 5th ranked Asian team.

At the confederation cup we perform well under Ken Dugdale and got scores of 2-0s losses where as under Mike Watt we had 4-0s losses and that is when we had a squad that had hardly any youth world cup experience. It was not the trashing that many have though we would get. remember when Australia got to the confederation Cup final and also trash the OFC pacific teams. They were players with youth world cup experience and a number of them had the beginnings of the professional club experiences as well. Don't underestimate the Youth World Cup experiences, it's valuable.

If you are saying that we get good opposition in AFC, you are right. But we get better opposition in the Confederation Cup and Olympic level. A majority of those AFC countries first team wouldn't match those teams that qualified for the Olympics sadly.

The honest truth is that most of AFC countries is not that strong. Out of the 46 AFC countries, about 15-17 countries are worth playing against for a health competition, the rest are even worse than Fiji, Vanantu, New Caledonia, Solomon Islands and Tahiti! Even these 5 top OFC nations outside of NZ are usually better than the 15th ranked AFC.

So if we play in the Asian Cup at group stage, then on average there is 30% chance that we would play against a credible team where's the rest would be utterly rubbish. And if we do get to the next stage, it would be a knockout stage against a credible team and even then that tenderness experience that would appear every two years. Not good enough in my opinion.

Alternatively we just arrange a tour against credible AFC teams and you don't have to be in AFC to arrange that. Most AFC teams are homegrown players so we would get decent games.

As for FIFA Ranking points, you are grabbing only more point against better rank teams that would happen 30% of time in their competition format and only a few games every two years. Not much of gain.

It would not be that much in for us at the present time and frankly we wouldn't get as look in from the AFC committee if we did apply again. I would be very surprise if we be successful.

It is best to develop our domestic scene first and develop the youth and glassroots over the next 20 years. Hopefully the OFC would develop more intra-confederation games by having the OFC Nation Cups every two years, separate the World Cup Qualifiers from the OFC Nation Cup in line with the other Confederations competition.

We have to remember that the OFC only had been granted full status confederation in 1996 despite been around for 30 years previously. So they are still green and have plenty of red tape to deal with from the other confederations.

Although AFC seem the most likely step for competitiveness. It is an illusion for us. We are not Australia. BUT. . .

We just started our NZFC version 3, our newest A-League rep Phoenix is pulling together.

For a top youth player like a starting at 16 to 20, e.g. Tim Brown or something like that progressing though. (Not including WCQ qualifier and tournament.)

In OFC;

Likely to get though; U17, U20 men's world cups, confederation cup, olympic men's.

Total tournaments in a 4 year period; 6 FIFA tournaments finals + 6 OFC qualifying tournaments/OFC tournaments.= 12 tournaments

In AFC;

likely to get through; Asian Cup.
no way we get through; Olympics mens, U17, U20,

Total tournaments in a 4 year period; 2 AFC Tournaments Finals + 7 AFC qualifiers + 0 FIFA= 9 tournaments.

Most matches qualifiers are either rubbish or have some difficulty compared to the tournament final .

Not really much quality experience as you would like to think.

3 AFC spots in all of the youth world cup tournament finals would be non-existing for us. There are plenty of tough teams not even able to get close. If we could match Korea, Japan and now Australia in youth plus class teams in Kuwait, Saudi arabia, Qatar, China, Iran, Oman all going for only 3 spots, then we may have a no chance. Even if we are near the top of AFC, it would still be a struggle.

But we will get learn better against better teams in the FIFA tournament finals plus plenty of warm-up games with even stronger teams that missed out getting in. As they have a point to prove.

These warm-up games against these team would not happen if we were in AFC and were not able to qualify. There are much experience in these warm-ups to close the gap and then some.

Friendlies/warm-ups are important to build a team/squad. It was not design specially for FiFA points but design to build the team strength. We get plenty of friendlies as top OFC nation because we would get money from FIFA for build-up.

There would much less quality friendlies if we are in AFC unless you win a spot in the top 3 or 4 which is far out of our reach, the chances of that would be less than when Australia was in OFC.

It is not foresee able that our domestic game would be fully professional, so how are going to play against AFC countries that has fully professional leagues? We will learn something and never get anywhere still.

If you want to go into AFC, then I suggest that we should have at least a fully professional league first and successful youth teams at World Cup final stage and successful Men's World Cup finals appearances before we get a look in.

AFC wants an very strong team completing to improve the top AFC teams as an ongoing process. They don't want another partial professional/amateur national team struggling in the mid-ranking of the AFC. It won't improve the big regional AFC at all. We simply don't bring any benefits to the AFC. Where as Australia did bring benefits.

At the moment, it's a fool errand to apply, we are simply not really gaining much at all. We could always improve with quality friendlies. Especially when there is money gained as top OFC winner. There is no money in second place and there are the same money amount in AFC if you get to the top three. OFC has more for us because we are full of amateurs and not big enough to scratch the top 5 in AFC. We would struggling at 10th place.

We need to get a full professional league up first. Re-align glassroots with SSGs, improve coaching at youth and senior level, increase training times during the week first before consider an application.

This is what Australia has done already. We have not even close to that development stage. Our youths are not up there to compete, they don't have the structure in the federations nor the elite have international experience. Australia has AIS and developing/aligned youth programmes along with the FFA. We have neither. There is a huge gulf between us and the Australians.

There is a slight chance although unlikely, that Australia might end up back in OFC.

We have to make hay, as Amateurs, when the is sun is out.

The only reason that Australia switch to AFC, is that they will get strong oppositions AND get into the WC finals for men, youth and women.

If we go to AFC, we will get strong oppositions BUT would not get in the WC finals for men, youth or women.

Asian Cup every two years(with no financial input but traveling subsidies) is not that much better than Confederation Cup and Olympics plus FIFA/Olympic committee financial input.

Wait and see how Australia goes. Develop our own glassroot, youth and women program. Develop our own professional player and coaching infrastructure. Develop our own international program against suitable teams for national team building.

Well enough said.

A long read, but still missing the point. Firstly, no-one here is suggesting that we join AFC now. Simply can't do it, as we're not financially viable enough, FIFA would probably not allow it and the AFC would need some convincing. But as I said, leaving that aside, the long-term benefit of staying in the Oceania is pretty much nil.
I don't really have the time to respond point by point, but I'd like to point out some of the problems with your argument.
1. The claim that we can improve the ranking to compare to that of Australia when they were in Oceania is wishful thinking. Firstly, Australia are and have been a much better side than, thereby winning more games and consequently more points. Secondly, they had more opportunities to acquire thos points, since as you point out, there were both the WC qualifiers and the Oceania Championship to compete in. Thirdly, you contradict yourself by saying that AFC won't want to have NZ in, and then implying we could play friendlies against the teams from that confederation to get more points. Why would they play us? They could get better opposition closer to home.
2. Again, you overestimate the effect that the youth World Cups and Confederations Cup have for us. The 1999 Confed Cup edition, which you seem to think we did well in, was not the result achieved by players who had experienced youth level football (some of that had, but very fairly embarrased in the tournament in Egypt I think, was it 1996 or 1997?), but was rather the product of experimental sides that Germany and Brazil had sent to the tournament (for most players from those counties at the tournament, this was the only time they won international caps), and even so we never really looked like winning a game. The 2003 edition was so embarrasing I don't even want to talk about it. As for the youth tournaments, the only experience we get there is how to get absolutely outplayed, and that has been translating well into the senior sides as well. The reality is we're not good enough to be there at this stage, and we need to find an intermediate step, in addition to strengthening the domestic infrastructure, although that's a different story.
3. You also underestimate the strength of the AFC - there 's at least 20 pretty competetive sides, and although there are some terrible minnows there as well, the standard of Oceania is absolutely dreadful. Of course we would struggle there for a good while, but in the long-run it's a much better option than remaining a midget among dwarfs in Australia.
4. You also put a lot of faith into friendlies, but I don't see how these can help to as much of an extent as you seem to think. We've had trememndous problems lately in securing good opposition and ensuring that we play them with the best available team (due to FIFA international windows, travel and costs involved, etc) and there's no indication that this situation will change in any hurry.

I'm going to point out some of your misunderstanding and disagreements we have, el grapadura

Point of difference;

We don't have Australia so we won't lose 2/3rd of the game in the OFC rated games. That has prevent us going into the top 50s. That is obvious. Of course they a better side, but they also have inflated points beat us being second top. Thats how the FIFA in the rankings tends to go.

I never said that it is a long term benefit staying in OFC plus I have also said the Australia may not necessary stay in AFC either. I simply said to wait.

There is no contradiction about AFC not wanting us there and that fact we could have friendlies with many AFC counties. We are starting to do that already with the youth, womens and NZ "A" teams as part of their world cup/olympic tournament preparations. There are like 46 AFC counties and they don't mind friendlies because it is not always offered to them to play in the international windows. But in AFC rating games, they don't want us there. AFC games are arranged by the AFC and the friendlies are agreed between the two associations, it does not need AFC.

If you argue as much being trashed at Confederation Cup and Youth Cups, but we had plenty build-ups and germany and brazil "experimental" sides would still equal to countries ranked 40-30, even if they are not having them back. But you are wrong to say that they hadn't have any youth players, they did have youth players and regular domestic players in the experimental sides. That was the whole point. Still a better quality despite the downgrade.

You are a bit harsh on the youth sides as they have been more than get poor results they did had the odd mixed result. Neverless, it's not really making a difference against youth AFC, they are going to be poor/mixed results. But as I pointed out, 70% of the AFC nations are very poor ,not slightly poor or decent but horribly poor and are not great to strengthen the youth teams. To get stronger is to play stronger teams on a regular basis. This can be done by friendlies and friendly tournaments. We could pick and chose adequate levels. You don't need AFC premission.

There aren't that many AFC rated games on offer as you might have thought. That was the point I was making in the previous post. Australia was simply being greedy for the top end points that we can't get as well as easier way to get in the Men's World Cup finals. AFC isn't that much better than OFC. when you look at before we had 2 soild OFC team in a pool of 12 OFC, compare it to 7 soild AFC teams, the percentage is fairly the same. Now it is even more loopsided when Australia switching. However they will get more variety and their real value level will bemuch clear. But for us, dangling at 15th to 7th place and playing against even more poor teams in AFC rated games is not really helping us. Better have friendlies so we would have a better grip on designing our own build up preparation rather than randomly play very weak AFC teams then get one game knockout loss against a decent AFC. Really not that much difference or even long term benefit at all.

You kidding about 20 competitive sides in AFC, aren't you? They all competitive but at a scretch maybe 17 teams. Russia, Israel and Turkey has jumped ships into Europe, you realised that don't you? the 7th ranked down to 17th ranked teams, we may get mixed results but the top 6 or 7 are far superior, although the odd draw like we get against Australia and the rare win may happen but it would still to far and between drink intervals for that! You thinking that there is regular AFC rated games, there isn't that much about. Australia was soley to get in the Men's world cup finals more than anything.

Our problem is more local and domestic not particurly internationals. We shouldn't be distracted by AFC membership.

It isn't the green glass that you might have thought it to be. If you want quality, look after your own backyard first, strengthen and grow up with your weetbix before playing with the big boys. We are not big enough in our own backyard, we just slightly bigger, but not muscularly like the one who just left because could play with the bigger boys, Just because we feel a bit lonely and want to join in, doesn't mean we have a good workout gym (infrastructure) at home. Occasionly, we need to build up our workout gym because noone is helping (money restriction) out, in the meanwhile we have to do our workout at another home (friendlies) or gym to strengthen up, before we hop the fence and play in the big boys park.

Friendlies are building blocks for the tournament games, you should know that. It cost much less than the enforced AFC rated games. The only problems you mention are not having the best team available, which then is really a reflection of our weak domestic league. We need to gym up the league so we don't need rely on overseas players.

Even for FIFA international windows and WC qualifiers we don't really have much overseas players to call upon. So we shouldn't be caught up relying on that player source to get us through. We need a strong domestic league and build a domestic side for these friendlies. You devalue the importance of friendlies too much. That is a big mistake. Its has as almost as much competitiveness as a rated game, but more can be arranged compared to the less but fixed rated games. Also it can be a measure of the domestic league players for much need experience. Many world team can't put their best out all the time but they can put out their best domestic players and achieve just a good result because of their strong league set up. Thats what we need.

Asian is a poison chalice until we build up some immunity, which we haven't got in the domestic game. It's a big mess in our own backyard. wait until we clean our own mess up a bit in some orderly stated first. We are underprepared and that is very obvious.AllWhitebelievr2008-01-28 16:39:53

While I don't disagree on needing to sort out the domestic mess NZF is in, I just don't see how what you're proposing can do us any good.
With regard to the ranking, the point I was making about Australia is that they not only got as far as they did by playing well in Oceania, but by performing well at the Confed Cup (drew with Brazil, and even beat them once if I remember correctly). We can't do that. Besides, the ranking points is acquired based on teams' rankings on the FIFA ladder, not based on their standing within a confederation. So there's not many points on offer in Oceania.
With regard to your other points, rather than writing much, I'll just point out that 1) there's no evidence that our participation at youth WCs (where we're clearly out of their depth) is doing us any good, 2)your faith in friendlies as being good developmental tools seems highly misguided - we'd have problems attracting good opposition, and they wouldn't take those games seriously enough for us to derive any benefit in the first place (in addition to all the problems related to friendlies we've already mentioned), 3) your contention about there being 2 decent sides in Oceania is laughable - there are none; we're the best, but still pretty much minnows internationally, 4) don't get the point about Russia, Turkey and Israel (Russia/USSR is a founding member of UEFA, and first ever European Champion, Turkey has been in UEFA since 1962, and Israel joined UEFA (by special dispensation from FIFA) for political rather than footballing reasons).

1.) We only started youth world cups regularly, so give it sometime.

2.) Most of the WC 2006 Socceroos were youth world cup developed players at one stage. It was a result of AIS and some governament fundings too.

3.) I was referring to when Australia was in the OFC, we were a poor second team then, but still decent.

4.)I was just knocking you about Russa, Israel and Turkey. Sorry that was bad humour.

Australia was always decent at the Confederation Cup. We are may not be as good, but we would get regular build-ups and get more matches on the side of the Confederation Cup as well. These are were some of the FIFA ranking points are for us.

We got our highest FIFA ranking of 47th in august 2002 because of our 1999 confederation participation and recent success in OFC nation cup against Australia. (you still get points even if you don't win - its a dumb system, go figure) We should get some points by participation. (The Czech Rep gained much points by playing more friendlies.)

The FIFA ranking system is a bit of a fast. At the end of each month period, the best 5 games games are of each year period of the previous 4 years are calculated, so you can lose heaps but if you won five games of the year period especially against higher ranked teams then you gain big points. if you draw, you get points, if you play and lost you get points if you it is one of your five best performed game. It would count for some points because you be facing elite teams at confederation cup. Its a dumb system but you have to play it out.

Without being able to get into the detail, my ten cents is that I'd rather see how we can genuinely perform in Asia rather than having an easy ride into youth World Cups, Olympics, Club World Cups, etc etc, where more often than not we'll just get thumped after having not had the benefit of a decent buildup campaign. I am sure Joe Public will have more interest in seeing NZ vs Iran at the Cake Tin than a confederations cup match in the dead of night anyway, and kids will be able to see first hand what a big deal international football can be.

We had very poor gatetakings in NZ. And this includes us playing against Asian oppositions in the past. But rest of your point are valid nevertheless.

Not sure, it would make that much of a difference until we have a strong domestic-based national team. We can't even get most of the domestic All Whites to play at the A-league level, how very poor is that?

On a different note:. . .

If OFC goes, then AFC may be forced by FIFA to take the OFC island nations in.

What you have is 43 AFC team is joined by 11 OFC teams. It becomes a 55 team competition for 5 places in the World Cup finals.

If it becomes like CAF's organization, then 5 groups of 11 teams would be a cut throat competition that the winners goes to the World Cup. I would hate that, it's cutthroat so much that almost 3 of the best 5 seeds are knockout and it may be due to other results easily scammed. But 20 games are plenty to do.
AllWhitebelievr2008-01-30 04:54:37