All Whites Coach Discussion - Hay Fever

carlind

Khalil Media

coochiee

Ollie

Listening to Danny on the news I think the decision has already been made for him. With the review findings due out after the games v Aussie and rumoured to be pretty damning on many things involving him and the environment, it’s likely the decision is already known. 

There is talk of a previous NZF coach arriving into NZ next week to be at the game in Auckland which could just be a coincidence ………… or not.

Just wondering, and I'm probably completely wrong - but could Bazeley, Hay or whoever have said something disaparging about number of games Football Ferns play in comparison to the All Whites, around the corridors of NZF??

Probably off the mark, but just a thought.

Chris Wood debuted in 2009 for AWs and has played 68 games. 
Ali Riley debuted in 2007 for the Ferns and has played 144 games (over double).

Yet I believe the AWs (through International Teams Fund - 2010 WC FIFA dosh & 2013 Mexico TV rights pesos), basically fund all the international programs both mens & womens.

The Women's team qualifying for multiple World Cups, and the fact Olympic matches are full internationals in the women's game, may partially explain the higher number played?

It is a factor, but I wouldn't expect the difference to be that vast. Since 2007 there have been 4 World Cups (12 games), 4 Olympics (13 games) and 4 OFC Nations' Cups (16 games) for the women, so 31 tournament matches.

For the All Whites there has been 1 World Cup (3 games), 2 Confederations' Cups (6 games) and 3 OFC Nations' Cups (16 games), so 25 tournament matches. 

It's also worth noting that for the WWC in 2011, 2015 and 2019 the Nations' Cup was the entire qualification process for the Ferns. That meant they only played 5 games in 2011 (aggregate of 50-0), 3 games (with an aggregate score of 30-0) to qualify in 2015, and 5 in 2019 (with an aggregate score of 43-0). As for Olympic qualifying, 2008 consisted of one game (2-0 win over PNG), 2012 of two (15-0agg over PNG), 2016 of one (7-1 win over PNG) and then 2020 was just a double-up with 2019 WC qualifying.

The All Whites qualification process was 11 games long in 2014 and again in 2018 (plus two more each in the 2012 and 2016 OFCNC semis and final which didn't affect qualifying). In 2010 the process was just the 6 NC games, with the winner getting to the IC playoff. So the All Whites have played 30 'qualifiers' for their last three World Cups, whereas the Ferns have played only 13 (+4 Olympic qualifiers), so it should more than balance out the additional tournaments.

As to the original point about Hay asking for more games, that doesn't necessarily mean he's keeping the job, as the point holds true regardless. I imagine he'd still remain a fan at the very least if he gets replaced, given he is a proud New Zealander.  If he does leave then it would almost certainly mean a return to having to bring in a foreign coach, as there aren't many New Zealanders coaching at the top level in the National Leagues, let alone anywhere else. 

Agreed. Not really any coaches domestically that you'd put up to the nr 1 job right now. 

From what I have heard, the culture within the team is actually quite strong, with the players and coaches having a good bond.

The problem was with Danny getting Covid before the Costa Rica game and coming out of isolation early (against NZF regulations/protocols)... only for two players to then catch covid (whether through him or elsewhere is debatable). Had Rojas been available, would the game have ended differently? Who knows, but it is a possibility.

He put himself and his players at risk - he will lose his role as a result.

MetalLegNZ

From what I have heard, the culture within the team is actually quite strong, with the players and coaches having a good bond.

The problem was with Danny getting Covid before the Costa Rica game and coming out of isolation early (against NZF regulations/protocols)... only for two players to then catch covid (whether through him or elsewhere is debatable). Had Rojas been available, would the game have ended differently? Who knows, but it is a possibility.

He put himself and his players at risk - he will lose his role as a result.

The team culture and bond between the players and coaches was apperently quite strong when Hudson was in charge as well............

The JourneyFan

MetalLegNZ

From what I have heard, the culture within the team is actually quite strong, with the players and coaches having a good bond.

The problem was with Danny getting Covid before the Costa Rica game and coming out of isolation early (against NZF regulations/protocols)... only for two players to then catch covid (whether through him or elsewhere is debatable). Had Rojas been available, would the game have ended differently? Who knows, but it is a possibility.

He put himself and his players at risk - he will lose his role as a result.

The team culture and bond between the players and coaches was apperently quite strong when Hudson was in charge as well............

The players are probably bonding over a shared experience with coaches making poor decisions.

I mean in theory there should be a strong motivation to start with, it’s a matter of not screwing that up! I guess that’s actually a decent skill. 

With the sheer number of "If I'm still here's" in that press conference, you'd have to assume Danny is done as NZ coach? If he was staying then he'd be saying that, or if its undecided he'd be saying he's keen to stay on (can't really see him chucking it away).

Or am I just reading too much into innocuous comments.

Hay is right about more games required against non Oceania teams. And yes, I appreciate the expense involved BUT the better quality of opposition, the bigger the draw card for crowds and a better playing experience for the players.

If you go by track record, Herbert lost the playoff and left in 2013, just as Hudson did in 2017. No reason why Hay wouldn't follow suit in leaving. For all the talk, there really wasn't a big departure from what Hudson delivered. If the squad truly is better than the 2017 squad, then expectations, requirements and standards should be higher too.

Hay didn't have to play any games in the islands, just five qualifiers in an environment that best suited NZ. Hudson's home OFC qualifiers were really no different to what we saw in Qatar. When push came to shove in the playoff, both coaches failed to score and lost. Hay won a couple more friendlies, but against weak opposition that, at the end of his tenure at least, Hudson didn't come up against. I have no beef with Hay, but the results are unfortunately what they are. It exemplifies the unique niche that NZ exists in, that really only one game matters. Going forward it'll be interesting who stays, as WC qualification is essentially a given, but losing all two/three matches is the likely outcome.

More home games against better opposition is not that easy either. No truly world class team will fly 24 hours from Europe to play against New Zealand, so the options are limited to less glamorous opposition. Outside of Australia, who'd probably rather look up for friendlies than down towards us, what team would be a big draw? A team like Burkina Faso is ranked 50 places above us and would be a high quality team, but the average punter probably hasn't even heard of them (not to mention what would be the appeal for the opposition?). Playing more local teams (East Asian/OFC) is the best bet for home games, but they're deemed not glamorous enough. So what are NZF supposed to do? Playing a home friendly vs Indonesia surely can't be any worse for 'developing the game' than playing Gambia in an empty stadium in the UAE at 4am NZT.

carlind

If you go by track record, Herbert lost the playoff and left in 2013, just as Hudson did in 2017. No reason why Hay wouldn't follow suit in leaving. For all the talk, there really wasn't a big departure from what Hudson delivered. If the squad truly is better than the 2017 squad, then expectations, requirements and standards should be higher too.

Hay didn't have to play any games in the islands, just five qualifiers in an environment that best suited NZ. Hudson's home OFC qualifiers were really no different to what we saw in Qatar. When push came to shove in the playoff, both coaches failed to score and lost. Hay won a couple more friendlies, but against weak opposition that, at the end of his tenure at least, Hudson didn't come up against. I have no beef with Hay, but the results are unfortunately what they are. It exemplifies the unique niche that NZ exists in, that really only one game matters. Going forward it'll be interesting who stays, as WC qualification is essentially a given, but losing all two/three matches is the likely outcome.

More home games against better opposition is not that easy either. No truly world class team will fly 24 hours from Europe to play against New Zealand, so the options are limited to less glamorous opposition. Outside of Australia, who'd probably rather look up for friendlies than down towards us, what team would be a big draw? A team like Burkina Faso is ranked 50 places above us and would be a high quality team, but the average punter probably hasn't even heard of them (not to mention what would be the appeal for the opposition?). Playing more local teams (East Asian/OFC) is the best bet for home games, but they're deemed not glamorous enough. So what are NZF supposed to do? Playing a home friendly vs Indonesia surely can't be any worse for 'developing the game' than playing Gambia in an empty stadium in the UAE at 4am NZT.

Nah bugger this. We shouldn't ditch the coach after losing the playoff just because we've done that before, doesn't make any sense. I'm happy for Hay to stay on and continue developing the team for the 2026 WC. 

coochiee

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/football/nz-teams/129994251/danny-hay-heading-on-holiday-with-his-future-as-all-whites-coach-yet-to-be-determined

... so Perth Glory coach by seasons end then ...

Hay is out

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https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/sport/2022/10/football-danny-hay-to-leave-role-as-all-whites-head-coach-after-contract-expiry.html?

Good riddance, he has been poor for NZ football, take Wintersgirl with him and maybe take unemployed Zorro to Perth aswell.

So who now?

The team played better generally under Hay than previous coaches and actually gave us hop.

Waineo'sWag

So who now?

Whoever it is, it will have to be someone who knows the landscape of football in New Zealand. I guess that in saying that, it already limits the possibilities substantially...

YoungHe.\rt

Waineo'sWag

So who now?

Whoever it is, it will have to be someone who knows the landscape of football in New Zealand. I guess that in saying that, it already limits the possibilities substantially...

I'm not sure it's guaranteed to be someone who knows the landscape. The last two hires had no NZ experience - hardly success stories - but prospective coaches overseas will probably see it as the biggest free hit going. Outside of OFC, where you have a massive squad disparity, there are no real expectations, so you can only exceed them, whilst putting yourself in a 2026 World Cup window for the next job. In that case, it could be open to any one of the thousands of low-profile UEFA Pro Licence (or A Licence) holders. 

Of people with local experience, not too many jump off the page. Buckingham the most obvious, but he's employed in a club job so every chance he wants to stay there. Bazeley/Emblen have been in the system as assistants, but is that the best step? Ramon could be an outside shout, but might have had his ship sail, and might be the beneficiary of coaching an Auckland City team streets ahead of everyone else. I don't really know if any of the National League coaches are particularly standing out. Simon Elliott coached in the USL Championship for a bit, but hasn't been seen since. 

Next game is (supposedly) in March, so you'd hope it'll be well sorted by then, otherwise those games become a bit pointless under an interim.

Think you can read between the lines of both the NZF press release and the end of cycle review. https://www.sporty.co.nz/asset/downloadasset?id=90532d19-3660-45ef-abf7-1ca1b38bdfa9

 

The review states that the Costa Rica result was a “that’s football” one. (I don’t necessary agree because I thought it was a massive mistake to play Pijanker when he had a huge step up from club football and only played 45 minutes in the two warm up games). If that’s so, and NZF were basing a re-hire decision based on results/performance then you’d think they would offer a new contract. 

 

But the exec summary also suggests some issues and there could be more that aren’t included in the summary. It also needs to be read in the context of the scope of the ToR, which we don’t have. So as indicated elsewhere, there seems to be other issues that could easily be outside of the scope of the review. 

 

So it seems pretty clear these issues were enough to prevent NZF from offering a new contract and instead are going to market to the prospect of an almost free shot at a World Cup in 2026

Emblem for me if it's going to be local coach. If it's Bazley then it's a jobs for boys appointment.
Interesting times ahead.

I'n not unhappy Hay is gone, just the way NZF has handled things, which is also not really shocking. Who now? Someone who wants to coach/manage a team that has no games scheduled for the foreseeable future, someone who is happy to work for an organisation that doesnt think getting regular gametime for your team is worth the effort. Gonna be a tough sell.

Some interesting recommendations came out of the review... a great focus on strong culture and transparency... didn't  he get the gig because he knew the culture and what the shirt meant, isn't that why Rory was in clipping the ticket? And the different communication styles find interesting as well. Might come from fact he hadn't actually coach at decent level before. 

carlind

YoungHe.\rt

Waineo'sWag

So who now?

Whoever it is, it will have to be someone who knows the landscape of football in New Zealand. I guess that in saying that, it already limits the possibilities substantially...

I'm not sure it's guaranteed to be someone who knows the landscape. The last two hires had no NZ experience - hardly success stories - but prospective coaches overseas will probably see it as the biggest free hit going. Outside of OFC, where you have a massive squad disparity, there are no real expectations, so you can only exceed them, whilst putting yourself in a 2026 World Cup window for the next job. In that case, it could be open to any one of the thousands of low-profile UEFA Pro Licence (or A Licence) holders. 

Of people with local experience, not too many jump off the page. Buckingham the most obvious, but he's employed in a club job so every chance he wants to stay there. Bazeley/Emblen have been in the system as assistants, but is that the best step? Ramon could be an outside shout, but might have had his ship sail, and might be the beneficiary of coaching an Auckland City team streets ahead of everyone else. I don't really know if any of the National League coaches are particularly standing out. Simon Elliott coached in the USL Championship for a bit, but hasn't been seen since. 

Next game is (supposedly) in March, so you'd hope it'll be well sorted by then, otherwise those games become a bit pointless under an interim.

Now that last paragraph there sums it all up quite succinctly. We all know that March will roll around very quickly too.

My pick is it is going to come down to Buckingham, Emblem or Bazeley - Not straying too far from the norm and nothing out of the box with these ones.

Buckingham is only contracted until the end of the current Indian season. Would be my pick, no doubt, but I guess that will all depend on how successful Mumbai are in their campaign, with regards to contract extensions and what not. That and whether he has aspirations further afield? City Football Group likely funding a very decent living for him abroad.

Probably a stretch too far for National League coaches, but I'd love to see a couple of them at least throw their hat in the ring.

Appreciate the link to the report too btw 2ndBest. Thankyou. 👍

Oi Oi Edgecumbe

Ryan Nelsen?

Would tick a few boxes, especially if is to be a focus on a strong AWs culture, and having ex players more involved going forward.

But why would he want to. Has some business interests Stateside, that sound like they are doing well. Why uproot your US raised family from there, to live in NZ for a drop in earnings, and all the NZF frustrating angst (though they have improved since his AW playing days, when they sounded borderline amateurish) you'd get. Plus he tried coaching at Toronto in the MLS, and found it wasn't his cup of tea.

Oi Oi Edgecumbe

Ryan Nelsen?

Has publicly stated he isn't interested in coaching.

But, given one of the grievances is a lack of footballing experience within NZF, they could do very well to try bring him onto player welfare and high performance committees, I've been very impressed with what I've heard from him on Sky and on podcasts, he really seems to have his head screwed on, feet grounded and of course has been there, done that. A valuable resource, if it can be tapped.

the reasoning NZF for asking Hay to reapply is more of a them issue than a Hay issue. Seems the players all love him and the relationships he has with the playing squad seems good. It's his relationship with NZF people and backroom staff is the issue. Which would suggest to me, you change the backroom staff not the coach.

Nelfoos

Oi Oi Edgecumbe

Ryan Nelsen?

Has publicly stated he isn't interested in coaching.

But, given one of the grievances is a lack of footballing experience within NZF, they could do very well to try bring him onto player welfare and high performance committees, I've been very impressed with what I've heard from him on Sky and on podcasts, he really seems to have his head screwed on, feet grounded and of course has been there, done that. A valuable resource, if it can be tapped.

What about Giancarlo Italiano, for the first two years of his contract with NZF it could be a job share with the Nix with him moving full time with NZF for the last two years of the cycle - seems to be well respected and obviously knows a few of the players.  Seems tactically very strong.

coochiee

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/football/nz-teams/130164439/coaching-great-kevin-fallon-laments-loss-of-danny-hay-as-all-whites-coach

 I thought that Hay should have been retained. But if Kevin Fallon is supporting him I may have to change my mind!

Retained or not, the reasoning for Hay having to reapply is ridiculous. As fallon points out a coach has to be intense and demanding of his players and he has to be the one in charge. The players all seemed happy enough to work with him, but the back office high performance people wanted to be cuddled and have Mr Hay be nicer to them.... so he gets the boot.

To be expected though if he refused to play nicely with others that NZF have hired to do a job? Of course I’m presuming there was no relationship between Hay and the high performance team because Hay wouldn’t have one.

theprof

Retained or not, the reasoning for Hay having to reapply is ridiculous. As fallon points out a coach has to be intense and demanding of his players and he has to be the one in charge. The players all seemed happy enough to work with him, but the back office high performance people wanted to be cuddled and have Mr Hay be nicer to them.... so he gets the boot.

These may be dumb questions but:

1: who are these high performance staff?

2: What do they actually do?

Napier Phoenix

To be expected though if he refused to play nicely with others that NZF have hired to do a job? Of course I’m presuming there was no relationship between Hay and the high performance team because Hay wouldn’t have one.

theprof

Retained or not, the reasoning for Hay having to reapply is ridiculous. As fallon points out a coach has to be intense and demanding of his players and he has to be the one in charge. The players all seemed happy enough to work with him, but the back office high performance people wanted to be cuddled and have Mr Hay be nicer to them.... so he gets the boot.

seems like a simple fix, NZF use their brains and ask the coach if he wants/feels the need for a high performance team. As you've said Hay would probably say no. Who knows what they offer that the current coaching team didnt. If the coach doesnt want it then why force it on him??

Hang on, the high performance team don’t just work with the mens’ senior team. All the national team coaches, at all levels, really need to be onboard to give NZ football (the game) the best overall chance of success I would have thought. 

theprof

Napier Phoenix

To be expected though if he refused to play nicely with others that NZF have hired to do a job? Of course I’m presuming there was no relationship between Hay and the high performance team because Hay wouldn’t have one.

theprof

Retained or not, the reasoning for Hay having to reapply is ridiculous. As fallon points out a coach has to be intense and demanding of his players and he has to be the one in charge. The players all seemed happy enough to work with him, but the back office high performance people wanted to be cuddled and have Mr Hay be nicer to them.... so he gets the boot.

seems like a simple fix, NZF use their brains and ask the coach if he wants/feels the need for a high performance team. As you've said Hay would probably say no. Who knows what they offer that the current coaching team didnt. If the coach doesnt want it then why force it on him??

 

maybe a HPT is needed for the youth teams and women's teams due to a lack of professional football experience compared to the men's team and coaching staff? I dunno, some coaches probably like having a lot of people around looking after little things, some like Hay, it sounds, don't.

I think this is a problem that I'm glad NZF are trying to solve - for too long the Men's Coach has been the dictator of development policy and more recently regulations, this is the job of NZF and their high performance team - it's really damaging to the grassroots development landscape to have a "new" way of doing things every time a All Whites coach changes.  
I for one welcome a setup where the All Whites coach can give feedback into a strategic plan but ultimately they accept the plan of NZF and their high performance team who are then responsible for the success and or failure of that plan.

chopah

I think this is a problem that I'm glad NZF are trying to solve - for too long the Men's Coach has been the dictator of development policy and more recently regulations, this is the job of NZF and their high performance team - it's really damaging to the grassroots development landscape to have a "new" way of doing things every time a All Whites coach changes.  
I for one welcome a setup where the All Whites coach can give feedback into a strategic plan but ultimately they accept the plan of NZF and their high performance team who are then responsible for the success and or failure of that plan.

I haven’t got my head around what this Hay upsetting whatever the high performance section is (so a summary would help), but what do you mean by being a ‘dictator of development policy and regulations’?