All Whites, Ferns, and other international teams

Time To Drop 3 At The Back

41 replies · 5,624 views
about 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Time To Drop 3 At The Back
Supporter world's best and worst football teams: Waikato/WaiBop, Kingz, Knights, Phoenix, The Argyle, The Whites & the All Whites

Permalink Permalink
about 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Since RH adopted the three at the back, the AWs have leaked 3 goals on average (outside of the WC itself).  Slovenia, Australia, Jamaica and Mexico all had that in common. 

NZ Football has come a long way since the Confeds Cup in SA and after the quality attack  we displayed last night, its time we ditched that rubbish tactic of RHs. Good in 2010, not now.
Supporter world's best and worst football teams: Waikato/WaiBop, Kingz, Knights, Phoenix, The Argyle, The Whites & the All Whites

Permalink Permalink
about 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

GOT TO GO. 

To exposed on the counter attack when playing a team of equal or slightly better ability.
 
Lockhead didn`t play the wingback roll well, Brockie slightly better.
Permalink Permalink
about 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Mybe not 3-4-3, but 3-5-2 would allow a defensive mid to step into a back 4 when the pressure comes?

Yellow Whever Whanganui

Permalink Permalink
about 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Was it the setup or just the players needing to play that style together more often. No one is complaining about the attaching football we played!

  Supporter For Ever - Keep The Faith - Foundation Member - Never Lets FAX Get In The Way Of A Good Yarn

Permalink Permalink
about 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Part of the difference between last night and the WC was Brown. During the WC we had Vicilich as the defensive holding midfielder who did a fantastic job of screening in front of the back 3(or5). Beside him was Elliot who provided the distribution from in front of the defenders and helped out defensively.
 
Against Jamaica Brown was (like with the Nix) positioned well forward as some sort of attacking central midfielder. Pour Weemac was left deep trying to play the Elliot role and cover the Jamaican midfielders. At international level Brown is too lumbering to play a forward role. At this level you absolutely have to have a proper defensive midfielder who will screen defensively and break up attacks and turnover ball.
 
IMO Brown and Weemac should have swapped positions. Weemac should have been creating behind the front three attackers and Brown should have been deeper....playing more defensively. OR even better Keat should have started there. It was an ideal opportunity to see if Keat was up to this level of play.
Permalink Permalink
about 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Blew.2 wrote:
Was it the setup or just the players needing to play that style together more often. No one is complaining about the attaching football we played!

Must be hard to get 3 at the back right from a positional sense with no training sessions and when practically all players will be coming from club teams playing with a flat back 4.
Permalink Permalink
about 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
djtim3000 wrote:
Blew.2 wrote:
Was it the setup or just the players needing to play that style together more often. No one is complaining about the attaching football we played!

Must be hard to get 3 at the back right from a positional sense with no training sessions and when practically all players will be coming from club teams playing with a flat back 4.
 
Not Really when you are under the tosh you are actually playing with 5 at the back
 
The difficulty is when you have a fair ammount of pocession and spending more time in the attacking third.
 
Open for the counter.
 
As I see it that`s what happened last night. Attacks broke down wide men forward and wallop!
Permalink Permalink
about 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Who are our options at RB, if we do drop the three at the back?

SigmUnd / Reid / Hogg (natural LB) / Brockie / The guy in Japan / Tuiloma (highly promising 17 year old)
 
There's not much there!
Permalink Permalink
about 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
TouchMe wrote:

Who are our options at RB, if we do drop the three at the back?

SigmUnd / Reid / Hogg (natural LB) / Brockie / The guy in Japan / Tuiloma (highly promising 17 year old)
 
There's not much there!


But we don't have natural wingbacks to cover the wide areas in a 3 man defence either....

The question is whether playing someone out of position will be worse for our defence than playing 3 at the back. I'm inclined to think it wouldn't be

People like Coldplay and voted for the Nazis. You can't trust people.

Permalink Permalink
about 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I agree that it's probably time to ditch the 3 at the back. The concept itself is pretty much now outdated in international football, as most sides find that doubling up on the flanks when attacking a back 3 wreaks havoc. In the World Cup we pretty much effectively played 5 at the back, but now that we are trying to use the wingbacks to provide forward thrust we are coming into trouble.

I feel we have to identify this as a major problem right now, because at least now we still have the time to try to find some sort of solution. If we ignore it, it could come back to haunt us 18 months down the line.
Permalink Permalink
about 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
zinidane wrote:
Part of the difference between last night and the WC was Brown. During the WC we had Vicilich as the defensive holding midfielder who did a fantastic job of screening in front of the back 3(or5). Beside him was Elliot who provided the distribution from in front of the defenders and helped out defensively.
 
Against Jamaica Brown was (like with the Nix) positioned well forward as some sort of attacking central midfielder. Pour Weemac was left deep trying to play the Elliot role and cover the Jamaican midfielders. At international level Brown is too lumbering to play a forward role. At this level you absolutely have to have a proper defensive midfielder who will screen defensively and break up attacks and turnover ball.
 
IMO Brown and Weemac should have swapped positions. Weemac should have been creating behind the front three attackers and Brown should have been deeper....playing more defensively. OR even better Keat should have started there. It was an ideal opportunity to see if Keat was up to this level of play.


Totally agree with this - I maintain that developing a quality holding/distributing midfielder is key to the future of the AWs. Keat is the leading contender but last night I started to think that Tommy Smith might even be able to do it...

People like Coldplay and voted for the Nazis. You can't trust people.

Permalink Permalink
about 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
and Brown into the backline?

                                                                        COYN    

Permalink Permalink
about 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
hamezilla wrote:
and Brown into the backline?


Brown to the bench as injury cover. Or to the stands/couch at home

People like Coldplay and voted for the Nazis. You can't trust people.

Permalink Permalink
about 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Herbert loves brown... expect him to be there for atleast a few more years, although we did show at the WC that a NZ team without him can still perform... perhaps he has forgotten that.

Against the Oceania teams hopefully we revert to a 4-4-2 formation. At the moment I would argure this as our top line up in 4-4-2
 
                           Moss
 
SigmUnd         Nelsen Reid           Smith
 
 
Rojas             Keat    McG            Barbs
 
                      Wood Smeltz
 
A quality young team with only three players over 25. SigmUnd to be replaced with Lia if he switches to us : )
Permalink Permalink
about 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
TouchMe wrote:

Herbert loves brown... expect him to be there for atleast a few more years, although we did show at the WC that a NZ team without him can still perform... perhaps he has forgotten that.


Against the Oceania teams hopefully we revert to a 4-4-2 formation. At the moment I would argure this as our top line up in 4-4-2

�

                           Moss

�

SigmUnd       ï¿½ Nelsen Reid           Smith

�

�

Rojas             Keat    McG            Barbs

�

                      Wood�Smeltz

�

A quality young team with only three players over 25. SigmUnd to be replaced with Lia if he switches to us : )


Lia, are you kidding me.

If you are old and wise you were probably young and stupid

Permalink Permalink
about 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Much rather Reid played RB and SigmUnd CB - Reid has more pace and athleticism to mark out wide.
Permalink Permalink
about 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
TouchMe wrote:

Herbert loves brown... expect him to be there for atleast a few more years, although we did show at the WC that a NZ team without him can still perform... perhaps he has forgotten that.


Against the Oceania teams hopefully we revert to a 4-4-2 formation. At the moment I would argure this as our top line up in 4-4-2

�

                           Moss

�

SigmUnd       ï¿½ Nelsen Reid           Smith

�

�

Rojas             Keat    McG            Barbs

�

                      Wood�Smeltz

�

A quality young team with only three players over 25. SigmUnd to be replaced with Lia if he switches to us : )

Assuming sarcasm on the Lia comment.
Brockie was better than "Barbs" last night and v Australia.
Wouldn't mind Vicelich playing for Keat till he's a bit more ingrained. He's not that big or experienced, so probably isnt the right partner for McG yet.
As long as it's not f**king Brown. I have never said sack Ricki but If he really can't see we have better players than brown I may have to switch sides on that on. (when there's anyone else worth considering for the role )
Permalink Permalink
about 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Don't think we need to drop three at the back all together, just need to play differently against faster more counter attacking sides.
Could involve using a 442 sometimes, or a 352. In the would cup, I'd be happy to see the old 3-4-3 aka 5-4-1. We are never going to be favourites for those games.
Permalink Permalink
about 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
CloneMM wrote:
Assuming sarcasm on the Lia comment.
Brockie was better than "Barbs" last night and v Australia.
Wouldn't mind Vicelich playing for Keat till he's a bit more ingrained. He's not that big or experienced, so probably isnt the right partner for McG yet.
As long as it's not f**king Brown. I have never said sack Ricki but If he really can't see we have better players than brown I may have to switch sides on that on. (when there's anyone else worth considering for the role )
neither were that good, Brockie was terrible in the second, and I recall him taking ages to see the ball uin the first given we attacked down the l;eft side for the first 10-15 minutes and barbs took a while to even get into the game too

Queenslander 3x a year.

Permalink Permalink
about 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I guess the faults in the 3 at the back system were cruely exposed against Jamaica. In the WC we effectively played 5 at the back most of the time.....mainly to avoid having our arses torn to shreds. "Our attack consisted of Elliot wacking long balls up to the big bangers up front. No problem with that system...it was very effective and it got us results.
 
However if you are getting more possesion and you want to attack more then the wing backs need to consistently push up field. As soon as you turn over possession you are hugely vulnerable to fast counterattacking sides as they have acres of space to move into.
 
So its up to Ricki to chose what he thinks will get us to Brazil. I have a feeling that he will revert the style that got us through last time. Without an international quality RB it would be more difficult to change to a back 4.
Permalink Permalink
about 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
zinidane wrote:
I guess the faults in the 3 at the back system were cruely exposed against Jamaica. In the WC we effectively played 5 at the back most of the time.....mainly to avoid having our arses torn to shreds. "Our attack consisted of Elliot wacking long balls up to the big bangers up front. No problem with that system...it was very effective and it got us results.
 
However if you are getting more possesion and you want to attack more then the wing backs need to consistently push up field. As soon as you turn over possession you are hugely vulnerable to fast counterattacking sides as they have acres of space to move into.
 
So its up to Ricki to chose what he thinks will get us to Brazil. I have a feeling that he will revert the style that got us through last time. Without an international quality RB it would be more difficult to change to a back 4.


In SA our strike force was Fallon, Smeltz, Killen so long balls worked well, but I doubt Rory will ever be a 1st choice player again and Killen is in the twilight of his career. Wood will replace one of them at least but if we want to play Marco and Kosta then our strike force will be significantly smaller and less able to play that style. Elliott will be gone too so his precision passing won't be there to pick out players 40yds away either. Keat looks good but I'm not sure if he's capable of playing that role as well Elliott did. With that in mind, a 5-2-3/5-4-1 formation as played in SA wouldn't suit the new generation of players coming through.

If RH starts playing a 4-2-3-1 or 4-4-2 now then there's still a couple of years to develop and test players in different positions, and if we can play a more creative, short passing game then we might not be under as much pressure at the back because the opposition might be more wary of us. Our road to Brazil is through Oceania and then 2 games against an opposition which may not be much better than us anyway, and I think we should back ourselves to beat a team like Honduras or Jamaica over two legs playing 4 at the back and a more attacking game than we did in 2010. It won't be easy but with the young guys coming through it deserves a shot. IMHO continuing to play a park-the-bus-and-hoof-to-big-guy-up-front would be a disservice to the quality of the players we have coming through. The AWs can be a better side than that!

People like Coldplay and voted for the Nazis. You can't trust people.

Permalink Permalink
about 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
442 4 me

                                                                        COYN    

Permalink Permalink
about 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
BarryZuckerkorn wrote:

In SA our strike force was Fallon, Smeltz, Killen so long balls worked well, but I doubt Rory will ever be a 1st choice player again and Killen is in the twilight of his career. Wood will replace one of them at least but if we want to play Marco and Kosta then our strike force will be significantly smaller and less able to play that style. Elliott will be gone too so his precision passing won't be there to pick out players 40yds away either. Keat looks good but I'm not sure if he's capable of playing that role as well Elliott did. With that in mind, a 5-2-3/5-4-1 formation as played in SA wouldn't suit the new generation of players coming through.If RH starts playing a 4-2-3-1 or 4-4-2 now then there's still a couple of years to develop and test players in different positions, and if we can play a more creative, short passing game then we might not be under as much pressure at the back because the opposition might be more wary of us. Our road to Brazil is through Oceania and then 2 games against an opposition which may not be much better than us anyway, and I think we should back ourselves to beat a team like Honduras or Jamaica over two legs playing 4 at the back and a more attacking game than we did in 2010. It won't be easy but with the young guys coming through it deserves a shot. IMHO continuing to play a park-the-bus-and-hoof-to-big-guy-up-front would be a disservice to the quality of the players we have coming through. The AWs can be a better side than that!


Some very good thoughts there.
Permalink Permalink
about 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
[
In SA our strike force was Fallon, Smeltz, Killen so long balls worked well, but I doubt Rory will ever be a 1st choice player again and Killen is in the twilight of his career. Wood will replace one of them at least but if we want to play Marco and Kosta then our strike force will be significantly smaller and less able to play that style. Elliott will be gone too so his precision passing won't be there to pick out players 40yds away either. Keat looks good but I'm not sure if he's capable of playing that role as well Elliott did. With that in mind, a 5-2-3/5-4-1 formation as played in SA wouldn't suit the new generation of players coming through.

If RH starts playing a 4-2-3-1 or 4-4-2 now then there's still a couple of years to develop and test players in different positions, and if we can play a more creative, short passing game then we might not be under as much pressure at the back because the opposition might be more wary of us. Our road to Brazil is through Oceania and then 2 games against an opposition which may not be much better than us anyway, and I think we should back ourselves to beat a team like Honduras or Jamaica over two legs playing 4 at the back and a more attacking game than we did in 2010. It won't be easy but with the young guys coming through it deserves a shot. IMHO continuing to play a park-the-bus-and-hoof-to-big-guy-up-front would be a disservice to the quality of the players we have coming through. The AWs can be a better side than that!
[/QUOTE]
 
 
Totaly agree with that....we are changing to a new era. We have some players who can play a totally different style. The key question is.."is the coach up to it" I like what Ricki has done for NZ football and the Nix but I have seen little evidence that he "gets" this new style.
 
IMO he fails to grasp that to play this style you often need to play more centrally through midfield. You need to select and encourage midfielders who can pass and move into space. Ricki's track record in this area is not great. The Nix often struggle to pass the ball through midfield and against Jamaica we saw the same thing with the AW's. Often the CB's had to advance the ball themselves because there were no passing options. I have already mentioned in an earlier post his positioning of Brown in a forward midfield position....which just kills off any creativity.
 
Same with the Nix...we had Sanchez arrive and he was a great prospect in central midfield....now he has been shunted out to the wing where he has  completely lost confidance and is a shadow of the early season player.
 
WE do however have potentially good creative midfielders. McClinchy looks great in midfield for CCM. Keat must be highly rated by LA Galaxy....he is in their squad and gets game time(plus played preseason against the likes of Madrid?? and did not look out of place). This is a way higher level than A-League.
 
But unfortunately I don't think Ricki will change....Brown will be involved all the way to Brazil. He will revert to his standard style and then throw the like of Rojas on if we go a goal down and have to chase the game.
Permalink Permalink
about 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
On paper we had 3 at the back in the WC, but with Vicelich it was pretty much 4 at the back (he played that deep he was a CB most of the time) and thus it worked...ish.

Vs the Jammies Brown is too much of a muppet to stay deep (reminds me of that retard kid who thinks hes a striker yet never gets put there for a reason) and McG doesnt play that game at all (hes not that kind of player)

Until we can get that midfield/CB floater - an Ivan 2.0 if you will, '3-4-3' wont really work for us again.


Permalink Permalink
about 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Why do I get the feeling Ricky won't change anything? Its a shame you can't get sacked in this country for getting piss-poor substandard results game after game.
Permalink Permalink
about 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Ricki hinting that he might switch to 4 at the back...

People like Coldplay and voted for the Nazis. You can't trust people.

Permalink Permalink
about 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
zinidane wrote:
IMO he fails to grasp that to play this style you often need to play more centrally through midfield. You need to select and encourage midfielders who can pass and move into space. Ricki's track record in this area is not great. The Nix often struggle to pass the ball through midfield and against Jamaica we saw the same thing with the AW's. Often the CB's had to advance the ball themselves because there were no passing options. I have already mentioned in an earlier post his positioning of Brown in a forward midfield position....which just kills off any creativity.


It all comes back to Tim Brown - you can't play a slick passing game when one of your CMs is constantly missing in action. His late runs into the box suit a team playing wide and whipping crosses in but not one that's trying to play through the middle. I would say the reason Ricki's teams can't play a passing game isn't his formations or his instructions to his players, its his ongoing attachment to Tim Brown.

People like Coldplay and voted for the Nazis. You can't trust people.

Permalink Permalink
about 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Nommag wrote:
Why do I get the feeling Ricky won't change anything? Its a shame you can't get sacked in this country for getting piss-poor substandard results game after game.


Permalink Permalink
almost 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
the trouble is that three of our best players are all centre backs

against jamaica we were undone by the wide midfielders not playing as wing backs forcing big gaps between the three centre backs

360footballnews.com

Permalink Permalink
almost 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
if we were to play a back four, michael boxall or andy boyens might find it easier than siggy to make the conversion to right back; boxall for his athleticism and technique and boyens because he has often played MLS there

360footballnews.com

Permalink Permalink
almost 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
When playing four at the back, and the ball is played(taken forward not long balled) out from the back by either the wide right or left defender(wing back) and the move breaks down and a quick break is made by the oposition and your midfeild is not covering you are left with 3 at the back. When your play 3 at the back and one of the defenders takes the ball forward unless you midfeild drops to cover to at least retain 3 at the back you suffer more chance of conceding. Even the Nix this season playing 4 at the back have been caught short when our midfeild has not provided cover. I doubt Ricki instructs the midfeild not to cover if a defender goes forward. May be blame lies some where else. Our do we concede we must always have the whole team behind the ball. 

  Supporter For Ever - Keep The Faith - Foundation Member - Never Lets FAX Get In The Way Of A Good Yarn

Permalink Permalink
almost 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
To compound the issue we have officially just lost two of our best midfielders to retirement while Ivan's time is about up, leaving us very depleted in the DF midfield department further weakening a back 3 model. disco_mart2012-04-02 04:45:00
Supporter world's best and worst football teams: Waikato/WaiBop, Kingz, Knights, Phoenix, The Argyle, The Whites & the All Whites

Permalink Permalink
almost 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Good point, although long term i think Keat can do this role or maybe Chettleburgh should he develop enough.
Permalink Permalink
over 13 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

If anything the OFC Nations Cup just reiterated how rubbish it is for the AWs illustrating my original point.

Supporter world's best and worst football teams: Waikato/WaiBop, Kingz, Knights, Phoenix, The Argyle, The Whites & the All Whites

Permalink Permalink
over 13 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Will find out tonight how rubbish it is.

 

"Phoenix till they lose"

Posting 97% bollox, 8% lies and 3.658% genuine opinion. 

Genuine opinion: FTFFA

Permalink Permalink
over 13 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Marto wrote:

If anything the OFC Nations Cup just reiterated how rubbish it is for the AWs illustrating my original point.

...rubbish without Nelsen and Reid.

Grumpy old bastard alert

Permalink Permalink