BAZEball - The Darren Bazeley Era

Edit - Give the AWs head coaching job to Des (plus the U23 Olympics). But offer Talay number 1 assistant role. Long shot but might be enough to keep Uffie at the Nix, with big carrot of going to 2026 WC, admittedly not as the head gaffer.

Uffie has openly stated he's in no rush with his coaching career, preferring to slowly build his coaching credentials

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/football/a-league/130448597/wellington-phoenix-coach-ufuk-talay-confirms-he-has-applied-for-all-whites-job

Applications for the position closed this week and NZ Football hopes to have a new coach in place by Christmas, but it must first find a new high performance manager as that is one of the key steps in the hiring process for the All Whites role.

Talay is expected to face stiff competition from former New Zealand under-20 and under-23 coach Des Buckingham, who having missed out on the job in 2019 and is currently the head coach of Mumbai City in the Indian Super League, while former Auckland City coach Ramon Tribulietx, another to have missed out previously, might also be interested.

NZ Football chief executive Andrew Pragnell told Stuff earlier this month that the high performance boss would be installed some time in November, with the final interviews for the All Whites job to take place at the end of the month or in early December, with a hiring announcement to follow before Christmas.

Pragnell was also bullish about locking in the All Whites' fixture list for 2023 sooner rather than later.

“I'd like to think that before Christmas we'll be in a position to announce, or very close to announcing, a really exciting, strong lineup of fixtures for them for the whole year,” he said.

Albert Stuivenberg

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Albert would be a great candidate for the NZ job. Currently assistant coach at Arsenal but has previously combined that role with being part of the management team with Wales working under both Ryan Giggs and Robert Page. 

Could he combine his role at Arsenal with NZ as well? Great track record with young players and champions a fluid attacking style of play. 

Has also managed Netherlands u17 and u21 teams in the past so has good level of international experience. 

bit of a difference travel difference between NZ and Wales, or Holland. Full time gig at Arsenal and travelling to NZ for the occassional game would be a killer, plus he'd struggle to get any video of local players.

theprof

bit of a difference travel difference between NZ and Wales, or Holland. Full time gig at Arsenal and travelling to NZ for the occassional game would be a killer, plus he'd struggle to get any video of local players.

 
Whoever gets appointed will suffer from having players on the other side of the world. Talay is the only public applicant, and he’d suffer the same issues, the majority of players will be in Europe/USA. If anything, a European-based coach will be closer to the players than an NZ-based one. As for travelling for games, Hudson only got four home games, Schmid none and Hay one, with far more games in Europe.

carlind

theprof

bit of a difference travel difference between NZ and Wales, or Holland. Full time gig at Arsenal and travelling to NZ for the occassional game would be a killer, plus he'd struggle to get any video of local players.

 
Whoever gets appointed will suffer from having players on the other side of the world. Talay is the only public applicant, and he’d suffer the same issues, the majority of players will be in Europe/USA. If anything, a European-based coach will be closer to the players than an NZ-based one. As for travelling for games, Hudson only got four home games, Schmid none and Hay one, with far more games in Europe.

yeah but getting decent video of the players in the UK should be a lot easier than the otherway around - given the coverage the game gets in Europe, here I doubt if there is even video of any players.

theprof

carlind

theprof

bit of a difference travel difference between NZ and Wales, or Holland. Full time gig at Arsenal and travelling to NZ for the occassional game would be a killer, plus he'd struggle to get any video of local players.

 
Whoever gets appointed will suffer from having players on the other side of the world. Talay is the only public applicant, and he’d suffer the same issues, the majority of players will be in Europe/USA. If anything, a European-based coach will be closer to the players than an NZ-based one. As for travelling for games, Hudson only got four home games, Schmid none and Hay one, with far more games in Europe.

yeah but getting decent video of the players in the UK should be a lot easier than the otherway around - given the coverage the game gets in Europe, here I doubt if there is even video of any players.

The coach will have to be based in NZ. A big criticism of Hay by Pragnell, was that he basically removed himself from working/communicating with the Technical Director & coaching staff of other NZ teams.

NZF want a closer alignment going forward. AWs coach will need to be living in NZ full time. Preparing for 2024 Olympics and even helping with 2023 U20 WC (lots of domestic based players) you think will be part of their scope in 2023-2024.

Rory Falloon and others have done the UK/Europe scouting role in the past. Winston Reid could pickup that job now.

Hearing from a few sources now that Des Buckingham is pretty much finalised as the new All Whites head coach and should be announced shortly. 

Pretty sure interviews haven't even happened yet. 

coochiee

theprof

carlind

theprof

bit of a difference travel difference between NZ and Wales, or Holland. Full time gig at Arsenal and travelling to NZ for the occassional game would be a killer, plus he'd struggle to get any video of local players.

 
Whoever gets appointed will suffer from having players on the other side of the world. Talay is the only public applicant, and he’d suffer the same issues, the majority of players will be in Europe/USA. If anything, a European-based coach will be closer to the players than an NZ-based one. As for travelling for games, Hudson only got four home games, Schmid none and Hay one, with far more games in Europe.

yeah but getting decent video of the players in the UK should be a lot easier than the otherway around - given the coverage the game gets in Europe, here I doubt if there is even video of any players.

The coach will have to be based in NZ. A big criticism of Hay by Pragnell, was that he basically removed himself from working/communicating with the Technical Director & coaching staff of other NZ teams.

NZF want a closer alignment going forward. AWs coach will need to be living in NZ full time. Preparing for 2024 Olympics and even helping with 2023 U20 WC (lots of domestic based players) you think will be part of their scope in 2023-2024.

Rory Falloon and others have done the UK/Europe scouting role in the past. Winston Reid could pickup that job now.

this makes some sense, but what the hell is a new coach going to be doing for 3/4 of their time? Watching video footage of players? Most of the AW's are off shore players so there will obviously be a lot of travel involved to see them playing, plus you'd hope that the team is a little busier this four year cycle pre the WC '26

There is only a pool of about 40-50 Kiwis playing pro football outside the ALM. 

Do you really need to watch Wood, Singh, Cacace, Bell etc live? You pick those guys every time

But yes once a year you want to travel to look at a Kyle Adams or whoever 

What sounds like does take some time is contacting the various clubs, and maintaining give & take good relationships. Working out when you may not call up someone in a FIFA window - so not to piss off their club down the track. That OFC tourney in March being a prime example 

Des might be a half decent coach but I would prefer a New Zealander. As we have seen from the World Cup the teams coached by someone of their Nationality have a bit more about them. I'm not sure who is out there as their doesn't seem to be too many that stand out. I think NZF given youth jobs to foreigners has stopped and halted the development of NZ Coaches. But i would like to see one get given an opportunity at least for a short term maybe 2 year deal.

Agreed, we are virtually guaranteed a spot at the next World Cup so why not give the job to a Kiwi to get some valuable coaching experience?

Every time NZF or the Phoenix appoints a non-Kiwi to a coaching role it holds back the best NZ coaches who hold aspirations of coaching at a higher level.

Showtime Nixie

Des might be a half decent coach but I would prefer a New Zealander. As we have seen from the World Cup the teams coached by someone of their Nationality have a bit more about them. I'm not sure who is out there as their doesn't seem to be too many that stand out. I think NZF given youth jobs to foreigners has stopped and halted the development of NZ Coaches. But i would like to see one get given an opportunity at least for a short term maybe 2 year deal.

It's hard to judge the suitability of New Zealanders to coach the national team based on what other coaches have done at the World Cup. I've seen it mentioned a few times in the last week, in regards to England, that no foreign coach has ever won the World Cup, but that's mainly because the teams that can be elite enough to win the World Cup produce many coaches as well. Even then, looking at Hansi Flick (Germany) and Luis Enrique (Spain), both treble winners at club level, there have been failures by 'local' coaches as well. Also, Morocco's coach Walid Regragui, while ethnically Moroccan, spent his entire life in France until the age of 34, so parallels can be made there with Buckingham.

I don't see Buckingham as the messiah some might, but he has done the national age group circuit with success, and has experience in higher levels than the NL. While he might have the English accent, he understands the local footballing climate and the culture very well, as he lived here for a while before he was at the Phoenix, doing work for WaiBOP and Capital Football. He's not really equivalent to an Englishman stepping foot in NZ for the first time. He also has a good rapport with the players, though that has often been the case with most NZ coaches it seems. I think it's pretty fair that he seems to be the favourite to get the job.

As you say, there also aren't many New Zealanders sticking their hands out to be the coach. In the National League this year I think only Wellington Olympic and Melville had coaches that have 'local' accents, though the other coaches are all permanent residents or citizens, so not much difference. They also probably lack the high-level experience that NZF would want for the head coach role, so the pathway would probably have to be through the youth national teams if they don't want to move overseas. As for non-NZ based New Zealanders, I can only really think of Simon Elliott being a shout. He has a Pro Licence and has been a head coach at professional level in the American second tier USL Championship, but is currently only boys' director of coaching for a USL League 2 side (fourth tier). It's a shame he hasn't persisted at pro level as he could've been an option for the job at some point.  

For a local example, Albert Riera learnt his coaching trade here and swept every trophy available this year, but he also only has half at year as head coach at West Coast Rangers, where they ended up being relegated, prior to this year, so I think it would be more than fair for NZF to wait and see, given City's considerable disparity to their opposition. Danny Hay had taken two U17 World Cups, reaching the Round of 16 in one and then won the previous NL with unfancied Suburbs, and was still criticised due to lack of experience. It is a shame that the pathway for New Zealand coaches to be New Zealand coach is so tough, but that's the reality, and it isn't helped by the Pro Licence requirement in the A League.

Some good points Carlind. I also don't think it's a given that Des will be a success as AWs coach. He had a few factors that favoured him with that U20 WC side a few years back.

Notably a really good buildup by NZ Football standards, with basically the whole starting 11 coming from 2 Handy Prem sides - Eastern Suburbs & Weenix (or Nix senior side). Many of the players had known & played with each other for many years. Combinations were strong, and through that Handy Prem summer in the lead up to the WC in Poland there were U20 squad camps, plus Buckingham regularly visited the Handy Prem clubs in person. He had a lot of on grass time with the players.

Plus it may just turn out that many of those players were a virtual one off 'golden generation' of talent by NZ standards. Time will tell. But as yet doesn't appear like there is a Singh or Cacace in next year's U20 team. Surman a defender maybe their best player.

FYI - Des's Mumbai City are travelling well this season in the ISL (after going backward's in his first season). Currently 2nd, a point behind Hyderabad with a game in hand on the leaders.

As an aside Cameron Knowles would have a stronger case than Simon Elliott. Not sure what badges Knowles has but he's still coaching in the US at a reasonable level. Now with Minny United II in MLS Next Pro. Finished 5th in Western Division this year. Prior to that he had 3 seasons coaching Portland Timbers II in the USL. He's also been an Assistant Coach with Timbers MLS side
https://us.soccerway.com/coaches/cameron-knowles/30119/

coochiee

Some good points Carlind. I also don't think it's a given that Des will be a success as AWs coach. He had a few factors that favoured him with that U20 WC side a few years back.

Notably a really good buildup by NZ Football standards, with basically the whole starting 11 coming from 2 Handy Prem sides - Eastern Suburbs & Weenix (or Nix senior side). Many of the players had known & played with each other for many years. Combinations were strong, and through that Handy Prem summer in the lead up to the WC in Poland there were U20 squad camps, plus Buckingham regularly visited the Handy Prem clubs in person. He had a lot on grass time with the players.

Plus it may just turn out that many of those players were a virtual one off 'golden generation' of talent by NZ standards. Time will tell. But as yet doesn't appear like their is a Singh or Cacace in next year's U20 team. Surman a defender maybe their best player.

FYI - Des's Mumbai City are travelling well this season in the ISL (after going backward's in his first season). Currently 2nd, a point behind Hyderabad with a game in hand on the leaders.

As an aside Cameron Knowles would have a stronger case than Simon Elliott. Not sure what badges Knowles has but he's still coaching in the US at a reasonable level. Now with Minny United II in MLS Next Pro. Finished 5th in Western Division this year. Prior to that he had 3 seasons coaching Portland Timbers II in the USL. He's also been an Assistant Coach with Timbers MLS side
https://us.soccerway.com/coaches/cameron-knowles/30119/

Referring to the U20 side, not sure if they'll get picked for next year's WC but Colloty and Donkers are also looking quite good. 

Both finished the top goal scorers in the OFC U19 Championship and Colloty finished 2nd top goal scorer in the Northern League and 4th in the NL. Donkers finished 4th in the CL and while he didn't make it into the top 10 in the NL, his goal ratio by match was still respectable. 

I know we've had strikers who have done well for NZ at age group level in the past but have kind of just faded off, Charles Spragg is an example, but they both seem to be showing some consistency and I think they deserve a trial in Europe.

Donkers was apparently born in the Netherlands and it's a long shot but maybe he might be able to earn his way back there to trial with an Eredivisie club's academy.

Have heard Talay is a little too much like Hay in his management style - very authoritative (more so), which is not a good fit with the younger players who want someone more relationship based.

MetalLegNZ

Have heard Talay is a little too much like Hay in his management style - very authoritative (more so), which is not a good fit with the younger players who want someone more relationship based.

Yeah can't say I'd want to see Talay anywhere near the All Whites tbh, I really don't see him as flexible enough to coach international football. 

I like the guy but I just couldn't see it working.

Don't really have an issue with the style of coaching as its supported it seems by our seasoned pros in the team. Talay just doesn't fit, he doesn't really back kiwis in his sides as he would rather play aussies or foreigners. Not sure he's anywhere near international level yet. 

Des had the support of his age group teams - but players always support the coach when they're getting picked lets remember that. Could be a good coach too but will he fit in with the big boys of the set up. Comes across as a bit of a yes man.

But yeah no candidates from within NZ really, possibly due to lack of previous opportunities in pathway teams. Still amazes me how NZF encourage and promote coaches and courses yet ultimately always give jobs to foreigners. 

Showtime Nixie

Don't really have an issue with the style of coaching as its supported it seems by our seasoned pros in the team. Talay just doesn't fit, he doesn't really back kiwis in his sides as he would rather play aussies or foreigners. Not sure he's anywhere near international level yet. 

Des had the support of his age group teams - but players always support the coach when they're getting picked lets remember that. Could be a good coach too but will he fit in with the big boys of the set up. Comes across as a bit of a yes man.

But yeah no candidates from within NZ really, possibly due to lack of previous opportunities in pathway teams. Still amazes me how NZF encourage and promote coaches and courses yet ultimately always give jobs to foreigners. 

Can't say I like that last paragraph at all. Des is no less qualified than anyone else in NZ (far more, in fact) and does not come at a local knowledge disadvantage in any way. His coaching education came here. Very myopic to pass him off as a 'foreigner'

Yeah there is a big difference between Jose, Des, Bazely etc who have spent a long time here and Hudson, Schmid  and Heraf who fly in and out.

mrsmiis

Showtime Nixie

Don't really have an issue with the style of coaching as its supported it seems by our seasoned pros in the team. Talay just doesn't fit, he doesn't really back kiwis in his sides as he would rather play aussies or foreigners. Not sure he's anywhere near international level yet. 

Des had the support of his age group teams - but players always support the coach when they're getting picked lets remember that. Could be a good coach too but will he fit in with the big boys of the set up. Comes across as a bit of a yes man.

But yeah no candidates from within NZ really, possibly due to lack of previous opportunities in pathway teams. Still amazes me how NZF encourage and promote coaches and courses yet ultimately always give jobs to foreigners. 

Can't say I like that last paragraph at all. Des is no less qualified than anyone else in NZ (far more, in fact) and does not come at a local knowledge disadvantage in any way. His coaching education came here. Very myopic to pass him off as a 'foreigner'

Agree. Not a leading candidate for the job but that would be like saying Bazeley is also a foreigner. 

Bazeley may have been born in England just like Des and played most of his career there but he's been in NZ since he played for the Knights and 2 of his 3 qualifications were NZ ones.

Shane Smeltz still coaching? He struck me as a genuine guy who could be a decent coach one day. Ivan Vicelich? although he seems happy being assistant at his club. Haven't heard to much about Simon Elliot lately, but would be good to get these guys involved. Ryan Nelson seems to not want to coach but stay involved in some capacity at NZF which is valuable moving forward. 

Elliott is a director of football at a California academy.   https://davislegacysoccer.org/coaches-roster-2022-2023/

Showtime Nixie

Don't really have an issue with the style of coaching as its supported it seems by our seasoned pros in the team. Talay just doesn't fit, he doesn't really back kiwis in his sides as he would rather play aussies or foreigners. Not sure he's anywhere near international level yet. 

Des had the support of his age group teams - but players always support the coach when they're getting picked lets remember that. Could be a good coach too but will he fit in with the big boys of the set up. Comes across as a bit of a yes man.

But yeah no candidates from within NZ really, possibly due to lack of previous opportunities in pathway teams. Still amazes me how NZF encourage and promote coaches and courses yet ultimately always give jobs to foreigners. 

Uffie has been very reliant at Nix on making good signings, particularly visa players. That's not a factor at international level, you basically have to stick with the pool of players that gets thrown to you. Also can be quite stubborn in his tactical style and international football is not exactly one where players have time to learn a unique system not easily mastered. 

Showtime Nixie

Shane Smeltz still coaching? He struck me as a genuine guy who could be a decent coach one day. Ivan Vicelich? although he seems happy being assistant at his club. Haven't heard to much about Simon Elliot lately, but would be good to get these guys involved. Ryan Nelson seems to not want to coach but stay involved in some capacity at NZF which is valuable moving forward. 

Shane Smeltz and his wife both work for Clive Palmer, including running for his political party in the last election, and you are the company that you keep.

Besides, he's a Queenslander through and through, I doubt he'd want to leave unless he has a falling out with Clive.

lthomas20

Showtime Nixie

Don't really have an issue with the style of coaching as its supported it seems by our seasoned pros in the team. Talay just doesn't fit, he doesn't really back kiwis in his sides as he would rather play aussies or foreigners. Not sure he's anywhere near international level yet. 

Des had the support of his age group teams - but players always support the coach when they're getting picked lets remember that. Could be a good coach too but will he fit in with the big boys of the set up. Comes across as a bit of a yes man.

But yeah no candidates from within NZ really, possibly due to lack of previous opportunities in pathway teams. Still amazes me how NZF encourage and promote coaches and courses yet ultimately always give jobs to foreigners. 

Uffie has been very reliant at Nix on making good signings, particularly visa players. That's not a factor at international level, you basically have to stick with the pool of players that gets thrown to you. Also can be quite stubborn in his tactical style and international football is not exactly one where players have time to learn a unique system not easily mastered. 

Also been good at bringing young players through and coaching players to bring out new sides of their game, which he would have time to do if we were talking about over a several year build up to a tournament. 

Anyone know when we can expect an announcement? or is this a typical NZF wake up on any given day and put out a statement? Cheese and crackers Wednesday in the past.

Showtime Nixie

Anyone know when we can expect an announcement? or is this a typical NZF wake up on any given day and put out a statement? Cheese and crackers Wednesday in the past.

 Andrew Pragnell, the CEO, said on the record on the Kiwi Football Fix that it should be announced by Christmas, so next week perhaps, but they're running that timeline tight. He also said that the Technical Director would be involved in the process, and that hasn't been announced either, so possibly a bit further away. There isn't really any rush to be fair, the next window isn't for over 90 days, and it's not yet even guaranteed they'll play in that window yet either.

heard on the commentary of today's game that Uffie had his interview this week, so an announcement can't be far away.

NZF could just be waiting for some clear air post the World Cup, before making an announcement(s).

You hope the new TD is sitting in on the coach interviews, either in person or virtual if is an overseas person yet to arrive in NZ.

coochiee

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/football/world-cup/130775380/end-of-world-cup-ushers-in-new-era-for-all-whites-with-five-on-coaching-shortlist

Good there’s 5. Disappointing if there has been a pre-determined outcome as some are saying. 3 mentioned in the article. Any idea who the other two are? 

If we get coached by an Australian we have failed in coach development in this country. On top of that Australia would never give it to a kiwi. An Australian coaching the All Whites? No way!

The other two Poms mentioned could do a fair job. But again same point as above re coach development in NZ.

You'd imagine local spanish coach Jose Figuera would apply. Not sure who else would be a local and capable.

At the end of the day i think Chris Wood will have the final say on appointment in consultation with a few other players. 

How is Bazley in the running? Cut from the same cloth as Hay. 

Showtime Nixie

If we get coached by an Australian we have failed in coach development in this country. On top of that Australia would never give it to a kiwi. An Australian coaching the All Whites? No way!

The other two Poms mentioned could do a fair job. But again same point as above re coach development in NZ.

You'd imagine local spanish coach Jose Figuera would apply. Not sure who else would be a local and capable.

At the end of the day i think Chris Wood will have the final say on appointment in consultation with a few other players. 

We're a nation of immigrants so who cares where someone is from. Ufuk, Des, Jose, etc. all have spent the bulk of their careers in NZ, Jose developed in NZ. Also, Australia would get the best person they could get their hands on, they wouldn't care if the coach was a New Zealander.

Also, Jose is not Spanish. He was born in and grew up in the UK.

Best performing teams at world cups are coached by their own. Makes me laugh seeing these other guys sing our national anthems it's so fake. Bring back RICKI

Ryan

Showtime Nixie

If we get coached by an Australian we have failed in coach development in this country. On top of that Australia would never give it to a kiwi. An Australian coaching the All Whites? No way!

The other two Poms mentioned could do a fair job. But again same point as above re coach development in NZ.

You'd imagine local spanish coach Jose Figuera would apply. Not sure who else would be a local and capable.

At the end of the day i think Chris Wood will have the final say on appointment in consultation with a few other players. 

We're a nation of immigrants so who cares where someone is from. Ufuk, Des, Jose, etc. all have spent the bulk of their careers in NZ, Jose developed in NZ. Also, Australia would get the best person they could get their hands on, they wouldn't care if the coach was a New Zealander.

Also, Jose is not Spanish. He was born in and grew up in the UK.

Socceroos have had a number of non Australian coaches over the last 17 odd years, starting with Gus Hiddink.

With only 1 professional team, the opportunities for Kiwi coaches to obtain the experience required is limited. Not that Hay of course had coached the Nix. But's just soo difficult for Kiwi domestic based coaches to make the jump, to coach at senior international level. 

But interesting that supposedly all 5 remaining candidates know the NZ scene well. That's a major plus, over likes of Hudson & Schmid basically coming in blind.

Kiwis don't gain experience because they don't get given opportunities to, especially in age group set ups. Surely that's a pathway for jobs such as this. 

Showtime Nixie

Best performing teams at world cups are coached by their own. Makes me laugh seeing these other guys sing our national anthems it's so fake. Bring back RICKI

we're not a best performing team at the world cup though.

Although I agree, we're a special case and need someone who knows local football and our culture. But, that's not Ricki, Ufuk actually develops and plays young kiwis, under Ricki they fell behind Australian journeymen and had to leave to other clubs to get game time.

Sutton, Waine, even Surman, may disagree of late.