All Whites, Ferns, and other international teams

World Cup Squad Discussion

983 replies · 21,546 views
about 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Daniel's citizenship is a genuine commitment IMO, but that's irrelevant. What nationality someone considers themselves is their business and I accept whatever they choose. It's their choice, not mine.
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about 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
davybhoy wrote:

el grapadura wrote:
davybhoy wrote:
Hmmm 16 years in Brazil, 3 years in Croatia and that makes him a patriotic Croatian??? �� It is abundantly clear that he took Croatian citizenship to further his footballing career.


And this is a very ignorant comment.

You don't know enough about Croatian football or Eduardo himself (I can tell that even without your obvious reliance on Wiki for info in this case) to be stating things like that. He did not play an official game for Croatia until 2006 - why is it so hard to understand that he simply liked the country and decided to make it his home?
Thats not hard to understand at all. Thats acceptable to me as well!! But that doesn't make him Croatian...its not rocket science. It sounds to me that you are arguing along the lines of "if you want to be represent any given country, you should be allowed to be"My argument is along the lines of "to play for a country you need to have some reasonable eligibility criteria" and i believe 5 years is WAY too short.


I'm not saying this, I'm just saying that there are different circumstances at play here than the mercenary hirings that the Qataris for example made a few years ago. I think five years is a reasonable compromise, ten I think is too restrictive considering the short career span of professional footballers. Five years prevents the genuine mercenary hirings, but gives more of an opportunity for players who genuinely commit to their adopted country.

I think you're being incredibly harsh on Eduardo - why is he not Croatian, or why is he not allowed to think of himself as a Croatian? Like I keep saying, he's committed to the country, speaks the language, has a Croatian family, and the Croatian state recognises him as its citizen.
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about 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
davybhoy wrote:

Firstly yes I do believe that your formative years are younger than 16. Not many kids have never played football prior to the age of 15 and sign professional terms at 16!Without ever having spoken to Eduardo I would guess that he went to Croatia because Dinamo approached him. Not because he was sitting around at home� watching Discovery channel and thought "what a great country I feel an affinity with them - I must go live there!"He went because they approached him and its reasonable to think he took citizenship to further his international career.


Well, if formative years in football are before the age of 15, then NZ should be a lot more competetive than we are right now.

I guess the biggest disagreement I have with you is that Eduardo obviously took Croatian citizenship to further his footballing career. But he stood to receive no immediate gain from taking the citizenship (which he did while still a teenager) since his international career with Croatia did not begin in earnest some 4-5 years after he took the citizenship (played 2-3 friendlies prior to that, but wasn't really on the national team radar), and since Croatia is not a member of EU, he didn't stand to get any advantage on that front if he aspired to fast-track his way to a bigger league. Everything about Eduardo's Croatian journey has followed the regular immigrant pattern (although it is true that he was scouted and brought over by Dinamo, but this in itself is not unusual even in other work areas, although not at that age) you would expect to see rather than a mercenary one which happened in Qatar for example. But I guess since the rules have been changed now by FIFA, a case like Eduardo's probably won't arise again.el grapadura2010-03-17 18:39:56
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about 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
The only person that really knows how Eduardo feels about Croatia is Eduardo. So to some degree we are both hypothesising!

I dont think he is Croatian because he was born in Brazil, he grew up in Brazil and (guessing here admittedly!) his ancestry is Brazilian. He has gone to Croatia (initially at least) for football and almost as an adult. I don't think he is Croatian, or more accurately, I don't think he should be allowed to play for Croatia, because i think his circumstances don't show me that he is committed enough.

Is 5 years really long enough? Is 10 years too long? FIFA agree with you that 5 is okay but I disagree. To me, because of the circumstances I think it requires greater to commitment to a country. 10 years is a long time I agree but it also tests someones commitment.

Tell me do you really think of Eduardo as Croatian? Or do you think of him as a Brazilian who plays for Croatia?

Is Daniel really a Kiwi? or is he a Brazilian with a Kiwi passport? Wonder where he will be living in 5 years!
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about 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
el grapadura wrote:


Well, if formative years in football are before the age of 15, then NZ should be a lot more competetive than we are right now.



LOL but the formative years are also shaped by the environment, lifestyle and coaching and that has been lacking in NZ. Mind you we're now one of the top 32 nations in the world, right?
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about 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
davybhoy wrote:
The only person that really knows how Eduardo feels about Croatia is Eduardo. So to some degree we are both hypothesising!I dont think he is Croatian because he was born in Brazil, he grew up in Brazil and (guessing here admittedly!) his ancestry is Brazilian. He has gone to Croatia (initially at least) for football and almost as an adult. I don't think he is Croatian, or more accurately, I don't think he should be allowed to play for Croatia, because i think his circumstances don't show me that he is committed enough.Is 5 years really long enough? Is 10 years too long? FIFA agree with you that 5 is okay but I disagree. To me, because of the circumstances I think it requires greater to commitment to a country. 10 years is a long time I agree but it also tests someones commitment. Tell me do you really think of Eduardo as Croatian? Or do you think of him as a Brazilian who plays for Croatia?Is Daniel really a Kiwi? or is he a Brazilian with a Kiwi passport? Wonder where he will be living in 5 years!


You seem to be advocating the 'blood and soil' concept of nationality. The world, however, has moved on from that, and won't be going back. Eduardo has been a fully functioning member of Croatian society over the past 10 years, and certainly has closer links to Croatia than me who was born there and have full Croatian ancestry. So how can I be Croatian, and he can't?

As for Daniel, I'm not a big fan of fast-tracking citizenships. But if he feels a Kiwi, then good on him. It's not going to be an issue for the All Whites until 2012, and who know what will take place between now and then.

Do you consider Smith and McGlinchey New Zealanders?
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about 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
davybhoy wrote:

el grapadura wrote:

Well, if formative years in football are before the age of 15, then NZ should be a lot more competetive than we are right now.

LOL but the formative years are also shaped by the environment, lifestyle and coaching and that has been lacking in NZ. Mind you we're now one of the top 32 nations in the world, right?


That's our story and we're sticking to it...

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about 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
el grapadura wrote:


I guess the biggest disagreement I have with you is that Eduardo obviously took Croatian citizenship to further his footballing career. But he stood to receive no immediate gain from taking the citizenship (which he did while still a teenager) since his international career with Croatia did not begin in earnest some 4-5 years after he took the citizenship (played 2-3 friendlies prior to that, but wasn't really on the national team radar), and since Croatia is not a member of EU, he didn't stand to get any advantage on that front if he aspired to fast-track his way to a bigger league. Everything about Eduardo's Croatian journey has followed the regular immigrant pattern (although it is true that he was scouted and brought over by Dinamo, but this in itself is not unusual even in other work areas, although not at that age) you would expect to see rather than a mercenary one which happened in Qatar for example. But I guess since the rules have been changed now by FIFA, a case like Eduardo's probably won't arise again.


Theres any number of reasons why Eduardo may have taken out Croatian citizenship. It could be to further his international career, it could be because there may have been restrictions on the number of imports a club could use at the time, it could be because he was so taken with Croatia that he thought  "here is where I want to live my life and i would like to represent this country", gee it could even be because his wife insisted on it before she married him!

My assertion that he has done it for footballing reasons only, may not be correct but its still a valid reasonable assumption - I can see too that your reasons make sense. As I have already said - only Eduardo really knows. On the face of it though he is a Brazilian playing for Croatia and its that that I have a problem with.
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about 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
davybhoy wrote:

it could be because there may have been restrictions on the number of imports a club could use at the time


I can state with certainy that this was not the case, there weren't enough imports at Dinamo at the time Eduardo, Mujcin and Sedloski were the only non-Croatians there at the time (until Eduardo took the citizenship).
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about 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
el grapadura wrote:


You seem to be advocating the 'blood and soil' concept of nationality. The world, however, has moved on from that, and won't be going back. Eduardo has been a fully functioning member of Croatian society over the past 10 years, and certainly has closer links to Croatia than me who was born there and have full Croatian ancestry. So how can I be Croatian, and he can't?

As for Daniel, I'm not a big fan of fast-tracking citizenships. But if he feels a Kiwi, then good on him. It's not going to be an issue for the All Whites until 2012, and who know what will take place between now and then.

Do you consider Smith and McGlinchey New Zealanders?


So you are Croatian? I had you for an ar*enal fan! I wondered why you were defending him so much!

You are probably right in that i advocate a "blood & soil" concept but i can and do acknowledge the way of the world  - I suppose i would prefer to reduce the opportunity for mercenarys just to move in wherever they feel like it. I think its naive to say "if he says hes a kiwi then thats good enough for me!"

McGlinchey - Yes. Born in NZ and thats good enough - though I do acknowledge he's more Scottish than Kiwi. His birthplace justifies nationality IMO
Smith - honestly? probably not - he fails my 10 years rule! - but he was raised in NZ in his formative years so arguably he's okay......
Our biggest dodgy one is probably Shane Smeltz!

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about 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
davybhoy wrote:

Our biggest dodgy one is probably Shane Smeltz!


Mercenary Judas.
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about 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
davybhoy wrote:

His birthplace justifies nationality


Interestingly, New Zealand and many countries in Europe have moved away from granting citizenship purely on the basis of birthplace, since there have been a lot of instances of pregnant women from less developed countries arriving to give birth in more developed countries, and secure themselves a life there based on the citizenship of their new-born child.

I also don't like to see pure mercenaries taking field in international football, but that needs to be tempered with the fact that the world is changing, people are a lot more mobile, and this needs to be acknowledged in some form even in football circles, and I think FIFA have struck the right balance at the moment.
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about 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I'm just going to jump in here and say I'm loving this debate, and find it very interesting.
 
The Daniel case is tough for me because unlike overseas cases I witness on a regular basis how much Daniel loves this country, and I know he'd wear his heart on his sleeve for the All Whites, on the other hand, IIRC he was here for less than a year before deciding he wanted to play for New Zealand and if I was looking in from the outside it would look very "mercenary" for a player to be jumping on a bandwagon so quickly, espeicially considerering that at the time he was a massive star on the pitch and would have been a shoe-in for an important role had he been eligible.
 
A lot can change in a couple of years.
You know we belong together...

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about 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I would be uncomfortable with Daniel playing for NZ.  I like the guy but to me he's always been a bit quick to play the I love NZ tag and and I'm not convinced that he's doing it for any other reasons than himself
 
More questions: is Tim Brown a kiwi (Born in the UK).  In my mind yes, he clearly is.  However, what does that say about McGlinchey (who has barely ever stepped foot in NZ)?  Tommy Smith has lived here and played here and has family here, I think he probably feels loyalty to both countries and I can accept that

Normo's coming home

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about 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Oska wrote:
I'm just going to jump in here and say I'm loving this debate, and find it very interesting.
 
The Daniel case is tough for me because unlike overseas cases I witness on a regular basis how much Daniel loves this country, and I know he'd wear his heart on his sleeve for the All Whites,


Yep I have enjoyed the debate too. I think because he is a closer follower of Croatian football than I am, El grapadura will have seen or read more interviews with Eduardo and as such can attest to the passion he has for his adopted homeland.

From the outside though i just see a Brazilian playing for a different country......
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about 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
davybhoy wrote:
Oska wrote:
I'm just going to jump in here and say I'm loving this debate, and find it very interesting.
 
The Daniel case is tough for me because unlike overseas cases I witness on a regular basis how much Daniel loves this country, and I know he'd wear his heart on his sleeve for the All Whites,


Yep I have enjoyed the debate too. I think because he is a closer follower of Croatian football than I am, El grapadura will have seen or read more interviews with Eduardo and as such can attest to the passion he has for his adopted homeland.

From the outside though i just see a Brazilian playing for a different country......



I am loving the debate also, think this is the epitome of what a forum should be.

I also see it from the same view.

I feel that if the rules are not changed to make it a little longer than 5yrs and we stay as OFC, then we might be seeing a few players around the world wanting to come here just so they can play at a world cup. Could be great for the game in this part of the world, but personally feel it is the beginning of the end for patriotism.
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about 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
 
A lot of the 1982 All Whites (Sumner, Almond, Wooddin, Brian Turner, Boath, Bright, Malcolmson, McClure, Hill) were born in Britain (in Hill's case was it Northern Ireland or the Republic?) but we accepted them as Kiwis and most remain here to this day.
Most of the above-named players had arrived in NZ several years before the 1982 Finals- Sumner and Almond about 1973 from memory. But they were nationalised after only a few years and able to play for NZ. That '82 side would never had made the Finals without those guys.
Steve Sumner was only 17 when he touched down on our shores and has now spent most of his life here, as have the others.
 
Brian Turner is an interesting case- and has much in common with current All White Tommy Smith- in that both were born in Britain and immigrated here as kids with their parents. Both subsequently returned to Britain to play pro football- and the similarity amazingly extends to the fact both signed initially for larger clubs (Chelsea in Brian Turner's case and Ipswich in Smith's ) but both ended up playing for Brentford! Brian scored a lot of goals for "the Bees" in the early 70s before returning to NZ in the mid-70s to play mostly for Mount Wellington. Smith of course is currently on loan there.
 
Billy McClure came out here in 1979 after escaping the Iranian revolution (he was playing there) and was well worth recruiting for the AWs as a former Liver- pool reserve regular in their great era. He played for us right through the 80s and gave such good service he was still playing Northern Premier League well into his 40s.
 
In the 90s as wages in Britain far outstripped those here (including for lower or non-league footballers) the incentive for young British players to immigrate dried up (our national league clubs couldn't match what even Vauxhall Conference sides were paying), as football crowds dwindled here. Thus few British-born players made the All Whites after the early nineties.
 
And by the late 90s we were exporting far more players to play professionally overseas (beyond Australia), many of whom made the All Whites. So the player movement became somewhat reversed. Harry Ngata was an early example of a young Kiwi player who emigrated to Britain as a teenager(in the early 90s), learning his trade there before returning, via Australia, to play in NZ.
So that's surely a good thing, that nearly the entire AWs squad is now NZ-born (or raised) and we can just bolster it by accepting-back NZ-born (or raised) players who had left when young to play overseas (Fallon, Reid, Smith, and McGlinchey- who left when really young!). All those guys were good enough to play age group football for established soccer nations.
Big Pete 652010-03-18 03:32:59

Big Pete 65, Christchurch

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about 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
 
Most amusing- just noticed whenever you type  "Liver-pool" on this forum site the words "Perennial strugglers" automatically get added after you submit your piece.
Mmmm.... somebody in control here who is not keen on Perennial strugglers Liverpool methinks.
Let me experiment: Perennial strugglers Liverpool  Perennial strugglers Liverpool  Perennial strugglers Liverpool  Perennial strugglers Liverpool Perennial strugglers Liverpool Perennial strugglers Liverpool
                       Perennial strugglers Liverpool
                                     Perennial strugglers Liverpool
                                                    Perennial strugglers Liverpool
                                    Yes, I give in- they must be then, if you say so!!!
 
             But they haven't always been Perennial strugglers Liverpool in the past, have they?
             Will Perennial strugglers Liverpool always remain "Perennial strugglers Liverpool" ?
             P.S. I'm not a Perennial strugglers Liverpool supporter...
             But to be fair, shouldn't the same treatment be dished out to other less successful clubs?
                                                               
 
 
 
Big Pete 652010-03-18 03:52:33

Big Pete 65, Christchurch

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about 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
"Blood and soil" nationalism is really creepy, especially considering that Croatian football fans in Australia have been known to wear T-shirts featuring their WW2 fascist dictator. (Yes, I know that Lazio fans are almost as bad.) That's all I have to say.Doloras2010-03-18 09:28:38

Ramming liberal dribble down your throat since 2009
This forum needs less angst and more Kate Bush threads



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about 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago


Most Croatian football fans (not me though) are on the right as far as politics goes. However, in Croatia the use of NDH (the WW2 incarnation of Croatia led by the above pictured idiot) symbols and icons is outlawed, so you don't see them at football games. Although some chants can get a bit unpleasant.

Much of the Croatian community in Australia emigrated after WW2 (largely because they supported the NDH regime) so their hard-core nationalism and use of NDH symbols should not really be surprising.
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about 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
So i'm assuming that with Mully being released by the Nix his world cup dream is over now...
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about 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
For me, and I know this sounds strange, Daniel is more a Kiwi than McGlinchey. (Assuming he is honest in his love for NZ and his desire to permanently live here.)
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about 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Big Pete 65 wrote:
 
A lot of the 1982 All Whites (Sumner, Almond, Wooddin, Brian Turner, Boath, Bright, Malcolmson, McClure, Hill) were born in Britain (in Hill's case was it Northern Ireland or the Republic?) but we accepted them as Kiwis and most remain here to this day.
 


Spot on...and to be honest we never thought twice about their eligibility! As long as they had the passport thats all that mattered!!!

Maybe its that times have changed....i don't know....I certainly don't want a team full of British immigrants playing for New Zealand now....but I loved all those guys at the time - even had a Steve Wooddin Tee Shirt

I recall about 20 years ago the Strines had a guy called Zarko Odzakov playing for them. He was interviewed after one match and needed an interpreter cos he couldnt speak English....thats the way it was back then....if you were good enough you could get a passport!!!
davybhoy2010-03-18 23:23:28
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about 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
el grapadura wrote:

Most Croatian football fans (not me though) are on the right as far as politics goes. However, in Croatia the use of NDH (the WW2 incarnation of Croatia led by the above pictured idiot) symbols and icons is outlawed, so you don't see them at football games. Although some chants can get a bit unpleasant.

Much of the Croatian community in Australia emigrated after WW2 (largely because they supported the NDH regime) so their hard-core nationalism and use of NDH symbols should not really be surprising.


Scary that racism gets passed on through three generations!
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about 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
The Croatian word for F�hrer, "Poglavnik", just sounds funny.

Ramming liberal dribble down your throat since 2009
This forum needs less angst and more Kate Bush threads



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about 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Interesting opinion peice by Tony Smith on Reid et al which parallels discussion above (posted on home page).
 
Last bit around ethnicity (cf nationality) is a bit of a red herring i think.  I don't think it matters what you are (Maori, Croatian, Scots, Goan) - given the right environment and support a certain percentage of the population can go on to do well in football regardless of ethnicity.
 
 

"Phoenix till they lose"

Posting 97% bollox, 8% lies and 3.658% genuine opinion. 

Genuine opinion: FTFFA

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about 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Henderson ruled out but Killen scored for Boro this morning in a draw with Reading.

Its no longer a problem.

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about 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Oh for goodness sake, if a player gets naturalised in NZ and have done his 5 years of playing the game here and is good enough to play for the national team then good on him.

Because once he is playing for the national team , there is no other national team to play for.

So to question his patriotic commitment to the national team is pure nonsense. Once he is on the field, he is ours and no ones else. He's not going to be less coommitted in playing for the team when there is enough riding on it.

Everyone just has to get over it.

Sure, he may have some feelings/connection for the old country but for the guy to come here looking for some football at international level, it's just good mutual business for him and us as well as him being pioneer and adventurous footballer.
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about 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
i can not believe we are not talking about tactics, roster and team line-ups,   what do you think about the final roster,...
 
my feeling is  if everyone is avail, injury free  and  chris james is playing pro-football in georgia as they say
 
paston
moss
bannatyne/ spoonley
 
nelsen
vicellich
sigmund
reid
smith
lochead
boyens
old/coombes/scott
 
elliot
brown
mc glinchey
barron
chris james/oughton/ mulligan
brockie/barbarouses/fisher
bertos
hayne
 
 
killen
fallon
smeltz
wood
 
 
regards  
 
javier from bs as  argentina
 
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about 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Oska wrote:
 <Snip> Anyone know where Brockie is whith his leg?
 Boot is off, gym & pool work going well. Will start running this week. Progress is being closely monitored by AW's coaches.
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about 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Cheers
You know we belong together...

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about 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
http://msn.nzherald.co.nz/soccer-football/news/article.cfm?c_id=86&objectid=10633613

Soccer: Henderson Cup dream appears over
5:18 PM Monday Mar 22, 2010

Midfielder Craig Henderson looks set to be ruled out of contention for New Zealand's World Cup soccer campaign after suffering a serious knee injury while training with his Swedish club.

Reports says Henderson, 22, needs cruciate ligament surgery and will be sidelined for more than six months after twisting his knee at a pre-season camp in Cyprus last month with his club Mjallby AIF. Initial scans revealed no major damage but he received a more severe diagnosis today for the Wellington-born player.

Mjallby medical staff member Mats Book told journalists Henderson was resigned to miss out on the All Whites' trip to South Africa in June.

"Such injuries usually take this around 6-8 months before they're back," he said.

"And we regret to say that Craig will not play any more for the rest of the year, so any possible World Cup participation is thus excluded.

"It's very sad for Mjllby AIF and particularly sad for Craig."

Henderson has yet to play a senior international although he played for New Zealand at the 2008 Olympic Games.

The same injury ruled him out of the All Whites' friendly against Mexico in Los Angeles earlier this month.

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about 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
How  many can we take??

paston
moss - Should moss really go?? he will get one game.. but what if Paston has done so well up till that point, then he's just extra baggage.?
bannatyne/ spoonley  - I'd pick spoonley out of these two. Has been playing well recently.
 
nelsen
vicellich
sigmund
reid
smith
lochead
boyens
old/coombes/scott - no to coombes, not up to this level yet.
 
elliot
brown
mc glinchey
barron
chris james/oughton/ mulligan. Mulligan hasn't played a club game in 2 years, so no, James if he is fit.
brockie/barbarouses/fisher - Brockie if he is fit, no to costa and Fisher.
bertos
hayne- He did well at the club champs, but did he even get on the field against mexico?
 
Forwards pick themselves, another reason why we wouldn't need cost or Fisher as you suggested.

killen
fallon
smeltz
wood
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about 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
hockeycam wrote:
How� many can we take??


We have to take a squad of 23, and we have to take 3 goalkeepers.
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about 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Vicelich and Siggy are in  massive competition for the CB spot alongside Nelsen, I'd say Ivan could be a possibility for a DM spot, but with him and Elliott there just isn't enough pace in the centre. Smith is a possibility for both CB and LB, but for now I'd go with Sigs and Lochhy.

Massive shame that Henderson is out, he could add something a bit different to the midfield, but I guess that leaves Leo as the only real weapon for getting crosses in, so I'd deploy him pretty far forward and rely on him to use both flanks. I'm not entirely sure Brown should be starting unless he can replicate his Phoenix goal scoring form. Perhaps Oughton, James or even Barron provide more.
 
Up front, it's a simple battle for two striker spots, which may come down to a better combination over the better two players. Tough call.
 
                       Paston
 
                Nelsen     Siggy
Reid                                       Lochhead
 
                        Elliot
       McGlinchey         Brown
 
 Bertos                             Killen/Wood
                 Fallon/Smeltz
You know we belong together...

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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Paston fully fit again!!
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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
herbert the national team manager,  needs  to call up  , up to  30 players by  april, and the make the final cut up to  23
 
which  players  from the  NZFC  can be  able to  cope at this level ?  my view  is  hayne deserves a wild card,  he can work  out if  he is brave, 
 
costa  barbarouses  too, he can offer  something different
 
 what about brent  fisher ?  he  played before for the  a whites  ?  ellensohn/ bright / jarrod smith??
 
what about that portuguese  midfielder ?
 
regards from argentina
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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
From the In The Nix newsletter appears they forgot SuperLeo....whoops
 
"New Zealand�s World Cup campaign in South Africa will ensure the remarkable strides made by the game continue in earnest. Wellington Phoenix is thrilled to have a strong representation at the event, with club coach Ricki Herbert and players Mark Paston, Tim Brown, Ben Sigmund and Tony Lochhead all making the trip to the republic."
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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Leo always plays better when the chips are down!

The answer to life's problems are rarely found at the bottom of a beer glass - but it's always worth a look.

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