2017 National Youth League

Pre-season hit out in Timaru: Canterbury United 5 Southern United 4

I see Auckland City have announce their Youth squad for the upcoming season – what is interesting from my perspective is the selection of one particular individual. This particular kid certainly isn’t up to national youth league level and didn’t even make his clubs top u17 team at the beginning of the year. The rumour going around is that his selection in the squad is based purely on his dads eagerness to open the cheque book and either provide a significant sponsorship / funds for his sons inclusion. While only a rumour, it does follow the tread over the past few years and certainly the kids wouldn’t be in the squad based upon his football ability alone.

Why does the club and Auckland City franchise let this pay to play happen – How do you create a squad culture of excellence when you allow this sort of crap to happen?. How much longer can this guy continue to buy his son a football CV that he doesn’t deserve.?

You are talking about 1x youth kid in a youth team. To a club, they will swallow that for the sake of dollars.

Realise the club would swallow their pride for the money - but would expect more from Auckland City !!

geez, it's only the national youth league, a pointless competition if there ever was one. i wouldn't get too worried.

It's not just Ricardo but his best friend as well and then you have all the Onehunga boys. Its always ben a closed shop.

I wouldn't worry about it braces Ak City don't promote youth players to there Top Team i think the last one was David Browne the kids you and Vader are talking about are there to help pay the coachs wages 

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Round 1 result

Canterbury United 4 (Michael White 18, 40, Byron Health 74, Haris Zeb 81) Waitakere United 1 (Matthew Banks 88) HT 2 - 0

ACFC youth vs Phoenix youth yesterday. 2-2 draw. My connection is with ACFC, but have to say Phoenix were very impressive; comfortable and looking to play in the tightest spaces, excellent movement off the ball, effective pressing, constantly creating genuine scoring opportunities. Phoenix probably shaded it and suspect they would have come away with the 3 points had Matthew Conroy not been forced off the field very early in the piece with what looked like a serious injury (ambulance) Auckland played their part in an excellent game and showed character in coming back after conceding 2 goals in the second half. I've seen seen a lot of hoofball this season (ACFC 1st half vs Waitakere last month was dreadful) and it was encouraging to see bright attacking football, with most players looking to find feet in the first instance and able to create space with positive movement. 

I went to the TWY v ACFC game on Sunday hoping for decent game between two decent teams.

Sadly the ACFC boys (who were massive btw) made absolutely no effort to play a game of football at all. Right from the off the bench were telling their players to 'sit back', 'let them have it' and 'keep tight'. Some of them could clearly play, but the orders were obviously not to.

The TWY/Ole kids played some great football and carved them open multiple times but just couldn't find the final pass or shot. ACFC got a sucker punch about 35 mins in with what I think was their only shot for the whole game and it ended in a 1-1 draw with TWY denied a stone wall penalty with 10 to go.

I've heard people say this league is a waste of time, but I disagree. I've seen some great games the last couple of years. The best kids need this kind of exposure given the poor state of junior leagues, in Wellington at least.

I'm firmly in the "the score doesnt matter at youth football" camp and was really disappointed with the approach ACFC took. At what age should we be more concerned about the score than the performance ?

I sort of get the NYL is for developing players so results don't really matter. But then why have it in a league format with a trophy at the end of the season, why not just play the games as a series of friendlies \ training games?

Also don't get you having a go at Auckland City for setting up defensively. One thing you are pretty much guaranteed at NYL games is goals, the league average's 4 a game. Now is this because of the great football or because our players can't really defend? I'd lean towards the later so all Auckland City are doing is developing their players in the art of defence, and it seems to be working as they have conceded only 8 goals this season.

I think that given several of these kids will also play ISPS (or be on the bench) that they are the age where you need to start worrying about winning games, not just playing pretty football.  However the focus needs to remain on development.

Team Wellington were a good example of this the other week against Canterbury United, they were down 3-1 at half time and could have come out and chased the game, but instead it looked as if they were practicing playing the ball out from the back when under pressure, which for a spectator was a bit frustrating but it was probably invaluable experience for the kids in a game where the result doesn't matter too much  

Agree with above, but we need to treat the ISPS Prem as a Development league as well. These are not professional leagues, nor are they likely to be for a very long time, so let's focus them on developing players for world class leagues. 

Lower the NYL age to 18, ISPS to 22. Let the journeymen play winter football flush with pokies money, let's try and focus what funding exists in growing world class talent that will play in good leagues offshore, and benefit the national team that way.

A team is not learning to defend by playing all 11 behind the ball, being told to stay back when the opposition defence have it and punting the ball long when you do win it to just give it back to the opposition.

ACFC made no attempt to engage in the game at all.

I can understand if you think the game is gone at 3-1 and want to practice something, but to play as they did for the full 90 minutes is not teaching the kids anything.

have to disagree, its teaching them how not to concede goals, defending well is an art form, not always great for spectators but doing it well isn't as easy - why is 0-0 a pretty rare scoreline in NZ?

also pretty sure the kids will be happy with it when they possibly win the league next week, incidentally the other team with a chance of winning the league, Canterbury, aren't a lot different and they have only conceded 10 goals all season

Possible explanation is that ACFC set out to play for a draw (or more specifically not to lose). Risking an open-ended game resulting in a loss would mean a greater chance of them losing the league. Whereas a draw would put them in the situation they are in now: win next week and they've won the league, no matter Canetrbury's result and currently superior goal difference. In case of equal points, league is decided on head to head result and Auk beat Canterbury. So a draw v TeeDubs was a big step to winning the league.

Of more interest to me though is the 'development' word. To purport to be such, one would expect a reasonable % of players throughout the senior league squads would have actually 'developed' through he youth league? Stat gurus, give me an answer!

If NZ football is investing money is either the NYL or the ISPS as a end destination for players, they are mis-using their funds. We are extremely unlikely to ever have a self-sufficient professional league in New Zealand.

They should be pathways for future all whites, not a vanity me too senior competition pretending to be a destination league.

Will it be case of the 'head to head rule' deciding the title rather than the usual - points, then goal difference and if equal then goals scored before going to the head to head result.

Maybe time for a "Grand Final' like in the Handi Premiership and National Women's league. 

Looks like it AW82. I'm predicting Auckland will indeed win the title on the same points as Canterbury with an inferior goal difference to Canterbury. Probably chosen as its only a one round league and maybe a desire to make every game count more somehow. Grand Final in a one round league makes sense.

Actually not that easy to answer, mainly because NZF aren't great with the stats, they used to produce media guides with squad lists and player histories but seem to have stopped that (but even then it was usually inaccurate)

From my own records and programs from the 2014 & 15 seasons these are the players I can find that have gone on to National League or better. This doesn't include players that have gone to Uni in the states, which quite a lot have

Player                    Youth team                  National League or better team

Omar Gaurdiola   Nelson Falcons             Southern United

Erik Panzer          Nelson Falcons             Team Wellington

Daniel Allan         Nelson Falcons             Tasman United

Nick Zambrano    Auckland City               Team Wellington \ Eastern Suburbs

Myer Bevan         Auckland City                Vancouver Whitecaps

Te Atawhai Hudson-Wihongi ACFC          Auckland City

Aaron Spain         Canterbury United        Canterbury United

Callan Elliott          Waitakere United          Tasman United

Bailey Webster     WaiBOP United            Hamilton Wanderers

Jake Porter          Waitakere United          Waitakere United

Clayton Lewis     Auckland City               Auckland City (now Scodhorpe)

Niko Kirwan        Waitakere United           Team Wellington (now Italian Serie C1)

Sebstian Schact Canterbury United          Canterbury United

Lyle Matthysen    Canterbury United         Tasman United

Then there are the Wellington Phoenix players who now play for the reserves (and a couple for the first team)

Keegan Smith, Liberato Cacace, Willem Ebbinge, Ollie Whyte, Max Mata, & Sapreet Singh

Thanks JourneyFan. It's not as high a % as one might expect but good stats hard to find and development is rarely linear anyway; and there will be lots of others too I reckon - Callum McCowatt and Harry Edge at ACFC for example. Would US college rate somewhere between Youth and Handy as a primarily U23 competition?

Regarindg zonknz's "journeyman" argument I agree in principle but still think there's value in having a couple of marquee players in the Handy - players who've played at a significantly higher level who can pass on good experience - Ifill for example. However players over 30 who've NEVER played at a higher level are just blocking a kid's chance - which is one of the reasons why WeeNix exists.

Not sure I see that the Prem is ready for the concept of a marquee, given its dubious financial footing. Does Ifill really help the prem build an audience/following? 

Some meaningfull/meaningless (delete as appropriate) stats....apart from highlighting the player who needs more work on the training ground  !

I have no problem if a team (youth or senior) sets up to defend.  Part of a youth players development is learning how to play against different styles, keeping concentration with minimal possession, counter attack, scoring from minimal chances etc. We all know about interpreting stats & depends what an individual decides is seen as "better".  eg: "1 shot 1  goal" or "13 shot 1 goal" - they both provide "information" to learn from. 

Re: "best kids...junior leagues": TWY players should be playing Central League/Cap Premier not junior leagues 

TBH the Team Wellington players that weren't playing Central League for Wests or Capital 1 for Miramar last season are probably kids that aren't old enough to play those leagues without dispensation. 

Wests Central League winning team had an average age of 18

Auckland City win the National Youth League title after a 5-2 win over Tasman at Kiwitea Street today. Canterbury can draw level on points tomorrow but Auckland City win the key head to head tie breaker to take the league out. 

What do these rules reward when the winners of the league a) score less goals, b) have an inferior goal difference and c) win fewer games - but happen to win a game against the team that were superior on the other 3 measures?

ACFC.         Played 9. Won 6. Drew 3. Lost 0. GF 21. GA 10. GD 11. PTS 21

Canterbury. Played 9. Won 7. Drew 0. Lost 2. GF 26. GA 12. GD 14. PTS 21

To me they reward deeply conservative football. Yet I look at our issues as a football nation and think we need to be rewarding attacking, goal scoring play. If those that run these things were to agree, we would have rules that reinforce such a concept in this development league. 

Honestly, does it matter who "wins" the youth league? Isn't the league about player development?

Players will progress into better leagues on their individual skills/ merits. Not wherher or not they were part of a title winning team a year/few years ago.

I must not have expressed it well because you COMPLETELY missed my point. I don't give a rat's arse who wins the youth league, but as a development league I do think every opportunity to influence every aspect of the youth league environment is important - including competition rules. As I asked, what do we want to reward for players at this age? Surely we want to reward play that is creative, attack-minded, goal-oriented.

Balancing out your point re: incentives is the fact that every team doesn't have the same schedule, so they don't all have the same opportunity to get GD. Taking one game, the H2H match, as a tiebreaker seems fairer in that case.

I am still not clear what you are saying. The rewards will come long term expressed in players long term technical development. My point is that who wins the league is an irrelevance, and that tweaking the competition regs in some way shape or form towards current orthodoxy misses the point. 

Whowins the league does not matter. What matters is where the league's players are in 3-4 years time.

Sure. I'm sure if there was a home and away round, they wouldn't have used H2H.

Agree results irrelevant. I guess what I'm trying to express - poorly by the looks of things - is that this 9 week competition has little development structure around it. The competition rules are a microcosm of the larger and far more important issue, which is there appears to be little strategy for the age/competition; as part of a bigger NZ player development plan.

To a certain extent I agree, H2H has never sat right with me in any competition, but we are talking about a league with a handful of games. If Canterbury scored 8 in one of them but 1 in all the others is that attacking play over the competition ?

You get points for draws as well as wins so having won one more game is meaningless. Had TWY put away any one of the numerous chances they had against ACFC last week Canterbury would be the winners.

Personally, when I see the word 'development' in a junior or youth context I expect it to mean how a team or individual performs on the pitch, not how they interpret the rules of the competition.

It's interesting though your interpretation of the word 'reward'. If you consider the reward as simply a medal at the end your focus is surely on winning the competition rather than development is it not ?

Given the TWY side was made up almost entirely of this years Wests U17 side with a couple of Cap Prem and CL players I see the competition as an extension of their existing development process.

I would assume all the other teams had the same selection criteria, so to think of it as a one-off, 9 week competition is not giving it enough recognition in my opinion.

just have a table of 'completed passes'?

I personally don't like using Head to Head as first tie-breaker, but one thing it does result in is that you don't feel the need to pad your goal difference against the weaker teams.  It doesn't matter if you beat the bottom team 1-0, 3-0, or 10-0, a win is a win.  So once you have secured the result, you can sub in your fringe players and give them more of a run, rather than trying to win 8-0 because your main opposition beat the same team 7-0.  This is probably desirable in a development league.

I don't believe I am saying that winning is not important, just that it is irrelevant to player development. Care about building players for world class leagues, that will grow the all whites longer term, and sustainability for the local game. Getting players into good global leagues as a matter of habit, rather than exception will yield player transfer and youth development fees back to NZ.

Unless you drew with your main opposition, then gd might come into play.

So if we want to see teams in NYL going for the win and learning to play A & D in equal measure.

Why not make all draws at full time the winner comes from a coin toss. If you settle for a draw you may lose the points anyway so you go for the win regardless.

A bit left field and not in Fifa code at this time but not at far off as you may think. H2H rules is more American than NZ anyway.

when its a draw you could have a penalty shootout and the team that wins that gets an extra point.............hmmmm I have a feeling I've seen that before somewhere!