Say I was to hit up Grant McCav about this for the next Podcast - what should I ask him...? Questions please.
Grant
When are you going to resign?
Mike
ASB Premiership: Changes Needed Next Season
Sorry but your negativity [as usual] is getting in the way of reasoned thought. How do you know what NZF has considered and what it hasn't? Just because a question occurs to you, what makes you believe it hasn't been already thought of and addressed? NZF aren't going to come on here and answer your questions are they? so what is the point of you raising them here except to have a bitch and a moan? If you were that concerned you'd contact them directly and ask your questions wouldn't you? If you are raising them in this forum to engender conversation amongst us all, then be part of that conversation instead of throwing in negative comments with no apparent basis for them. In recent times James Dean and others have bombarded us with all of this negativity and there has become a 'boy cries wolf' dimension to it. Very hard to get a true appreciation of any possible message they're trying to get across because its all dressed up in a moaning suit.
McKavanagh acknowledged there could be some issues with centralising the under-20s. Clubs will resist releasing their best young talent while some players will be keen to jump ship out of fear their World Cup selection prospects will be jeopardised if they stay put.
"If a player is contracted, he has got to do what he has got to do - it is the player's call," he said.
Then you have the Phoenix factor - we're talking about exactly the same constituency of players here and I don't see how they both can exist at the same time.
Say I was to hit up Grant McCav about this for the next Podcast - what should I ask him...? Questions please.
1. Will players from outside this U20s team be picked if they choose to stay with their clubs. If yes and you're not going to get all the players playing together, what's the point? If no, is that fair considering this is a representative team? Have they spoken to players to get their feedback on who will or will not be available?
2. Do they plan to pay players to play for this team or arrange jobs for them? How do they expect to compete with other clubs that are willing to do these things?
3. Is this truly better for the league than an additional Auckland side? What will happen to this team after 2015?
4. Did they instead consider changing the league rules to say require each team to field 3 U20s players in every match to ensure players are playing and getting experience, rather than changing the whole league structure? Have they considered the positive benefits that will be lost of players playing in the O-League and going to the CWC?
5. Have they discussed this with the Phoenix? Clear player cross-over with the Phoenix "finishing school", how will that work?
6. Can this team qualify for the O-League?
7. Will NZF take a cut of O-League prize money for the U20s team? Will the team pay a league entry fee?
8. How much of this is being driven by trying to save costs as opposed to what is best for the league?
9. What is the long term strategy for the league wrt expansion? What do NZF consider to be the ideal number of teams/structure for the ASBP?
Some of you guys are over thinking this way too much.
I'd be very surprised if a player was selected for the NZ U20s but didn't want to play for them.
Say I was to hit up Grant McCav about this for the next Podcast - what should I ask him...? Questions please.
1. Will players from outside this U20s team be picked if they choose to stay with their clubs. If yes and you're not going to get all the players playing together, what's the point? If no, is that fair considering this is a representative team? Have they spoken to players to get their feedback on who will or will not be available?
2. Do they plan to pay players to play for this team or arrange jobs for them? How do they expect to compete with other clubs that are willing to do these things?
3. Is this truly better for the league than an additional Auckland side? What will happen to this team after 2015?
4. Did they instead consider changing the league rules to say require each team to field 3 U20s players in every match to ensure players are playing and getting experience, rather than changing the whole league structure? Have they considered the positive benefits that will be lost of players playing in the O-League and going to the CWC?
5. Have they discussed this with the Phoenix? Clear player cross-over with the Phoenix "finishing school", how will that work?
6. Can this team qualify for the O-League?
7. Will NZF take a cut of O-League prize money for the U20s team? Will the team pay a league entry fee?
8. How much of this is being driven by trying to save costs as opposed to what is best for the league?
9. What is the long term strategy for the league wrt expansion? What do NZF consider to be the ideal number of teams/structure for the ASBP?
All good questions, would love answers.
I'm sure there will be little pitfalls along the way but that is no different from any project in any walk of life. Rather than putting all your angst into these little details, try looking at the overall idea and offer some ideas on how it can be made to work. Man, I'd hate to employ some of you.... I can hear the whinges now "we've always done it like that..." "that won't work" blah blah blah
The point is Napier Phoenix we're trying to make the ASBP work as a competition and adding an Under 20 side doesn't help that. If NZF wants playing time for the team let them go on tour. Leave the ASBP as a franchise competition leading to the O League without using it as a training ground for young World Cup players. It smacks of convenience and cost cutting to me.
I have an awful feeling that NZF are only looking to the next Under 20 World Cup as far as the ASBP is concerned and have no real commitment to the national league beyond that. What should be their main focus now seems to be merely a training ground for their age group national teams.
Sorry but your negativity [as usual] is getting in the way of reasoned thought. How do you know what NZF has considered and what it hasn't? Just because a question occurs to you, what makes you believe it hasn't been already thought of and addressed? NZF aren't going to come on here and answer your questions are they? so what is the point of you raising them here except to have a bitch and a moan? If you were that concerned you'd contact them directly and ask your questions wouldn't you? If you are raising them in this forum to engender conversation amongst us all, then be part of that conversation instead of throwing in negative comments with no apparent basis for them. In recent times James Dean and others have bombarded us with all of this negativity and there has become a 'boy cries wolf' dimension to it. Very hard to get a true appreciation of any possible message they're trying to get across because its all dressed up in a moaning suit.
funny how you think others are negative
I have an awful feeling that NZF are only looking to the next Under 20 World Cup as far as the ASBP is concerned and have no real commitment to the national league beyond that. What should be their main focus now seems to be merely a training ground for their age group national teams.
in a way it might be good it they have no real commitment after that. might be an opportunity for fresh ideas.
What !!!.......after the huge success this championship has been ..... surely not !!
ha ha
the whole thing was great for a while. i wasn't sure about ditching the clubs at first, but rocking up to newtown park every second friday along with no less than a thousand others was cool and the standard wasn't too bad either
since then, teams seemed to go on different tangents. 2 teams became excellent and the others fell off the pace. the league needed fresh energy, but never got it. nor did the under performers ever really get a kick up the butt that they should have
in a playing sense youngheart deserved to go. but playing standards never really seemed to be a factor until NZF wanted to find a place for their own team, so i feel sorry for them
now the lower north island only has one team, which adds an interesting dimension. and if this team is going to be used as a phoenix development tool, that will leave a lot of good national league players from the region sitting on the beach this summer.
which is all well and good if the league is to be used for development purposes only. although you could argue that the best structure for development would be to have our best young players playing alongside and against the best older players.
Sorry but your negativity [as usual] is getting in the way of reasoned thought. How do you know what NZF has considered and what it hasn't? Just because a question occurs to you, what makes you believe it hasn't been already thought of and addressed? NZF aren't going to come on here and answer your questions are they? so what is the point of you raising them here except to have a bitch and a moan? If you were that concerned you'd contact them directly and ask your questions wouldn't you? If you are raising them in this forum to engender conversation amongst us all, then be part of that conversation instead of throwing in negative comments with no apparent basis for them. In recent times James Dean and others have bombarded us with all of this negativity and there has become a 'boy cries wolf' dimension to it. Very hard to get a true appreciation of any possible message they're trying to get across because its all dressed up in a moaning suit.
funny how you think others are negative
Then you have the Phoenix factor - we're talking about exactly the same constituency of players here and I don't see how they both can exist at the same time.
Not quite. The Phoenix Academy 2013/14 will include the lads from the current Academy, who are all too old for the 2015 U20s. So while there will be overlapping constituencies, they aren't exactly the same.
If the NZ U20s were based in Wellington would this solve all the issues? That way the Nix academy players could either go to U20s or Team Wellington if they aren't in the NZ squad..
If the NZ U20s were based in Wellington would this solve all the issues? That way the Nix academy players could either go to U20s or Team Wellington if they aren't in the NZ squad..
It wouldn't solve all the problems, but sure as heck it'd be better than if it were Auckland based for the reasons you mentioned.
If the NZ U20s were based in Wellington would this solve all the issues? That way the Nix academy players could either go to U20s or Team Wellington if they aren't in the NZ squad..
It wouldn't solve all the problems, but sure as heck it'd be better than if it were Auckland based for the reasons you mentioned.
My understanding is the Under 20 'home' games are going to be played at North Harbour Stadium. Who is going to go watch when it's not ACFC's usual travelling supporters? Another ASBP team with a handful of spectators whereas a South Auckland franchise or Nelson could have injected some new spectator interest in the competition. This simply has not been thought through for so many reasons.
If the NZ U20s were based in Wellington would this solve all the issues? That way the Nix academy players could either go to U20s or Team Wellington if they aren't in the NZ squad..
How about basing it in Hamilton and calling it WaiBop 20s?
If the NZ U20s were based in Wellington would this solve all the issues? That way the Nix academy players could either go to U20s or Team Wellington if they aren't in the NZ squad..
It wouldn't solve all the problems, but sure as heck it'd be better than if it were Auckland based for the reasons you mentioned.
My understanding is the Under 20 'home' games are going to be played at North Harbour Stadium. Who is going to go watch when it's not ACFC's usual travelling supporters? Another ASBP team with a handful of spectators whereas a South Auckland franchise or Nelson could have injected some new spectator interest in the competition. This simply has not been thought through for so many reasons.
As a neutral I'd rather go watch the NZ U20s then WaiBop, Otago, Canterbury etc..
I have an awful feeling that NZF are only looking to the next Under 20 World Cup as far as the ASBP is concerned and have no real commitment to the national league beyond that.
No matter the quality of football on offer, or the chance that it's given ACFC/Y-tak players to strut it in Oceania and on the world stage, let's state the obvious: the NZFC/ASBPrem is and always has been a Mickey Mouse substitute based on franchises (usually one or more winter clubs in disguise) for a "real" National League made up of actual clubs. Which is one reason why I've never had any tolerance for ACFC knitters - it's a franchise, not a real club, so it's absolutely no different from the Phoenix. Except that the Phoenix admit they pay their players and don't rort charities.
So the ASB premiership teams are franchises, which is no different to the Phoenix, which is a club?
Um...what?
I can´t understand this expansion.
Manawatu played in the O-League and in the Play-Offs. Six years ago, ok, but in Europe the UEFA also don´t cancel a club only for sporting reasons.
And another Question. A player like Simon Arms, Mathew Ridenton or Dylan Stansfield can play in the NZ U20 or for Auckland/Waitakere international in the O-League, maybe in the FIFA Club-Worldcup.(In Germany ist this a great honour)
The most players will be recruited from Manawatu, Cantebury, TW, or so, but the players from the two big sides in NZ have to make a heavy decision.
Why the NZFC haven´t included Nelson or South Auckland or Wairarapa? Team Wellington(5) + Manawatu(3) had the half of the "NZ U20" 2013(based in NZ). And players like Howieson, Roux, Crocombe or Fenton will not play for the NZ U20 in the ASB Premiership!
So I see a team: 8-10 players they really play for NZ U20 2015 and 8-10 players they called ?"stopgap"?
And this is the future of NZ football?
So the ASB premiership teams are franchises, which is no different to the Phoenix, which is a club?
Um...what?
No, the Phoenix is a franchise too , we must admit; the point is that ACFC fans sneering at us for that is a real pot-kettle-black thing.
MAYBE ITS NOT AN 'US' THING ??
not sure how playing for the u20s will stop players playing in the o-league and world club cup? surely once the ASBP has finished they will simply go back to their clubs. Don't actually see why they will have to transfer away from the club in first place.
So the ASB premiership teams are franchises, which is no different to the Phoenix, which is a club?
Um...what?
No, the Phoenix is a franchise too , we must admit; the point is that ACFC fans sneering at us for that is a real pot-kettle-black thing.
So the ASB premiership teams are franchises, which is no different to the Phoenix, which is a club?
Um...what?
No, the Phoenix is a franchise too , we must admit; the point is that ACFC fans sneering at us for that is a real pot-kettle-black thing.
We're not sneering at the Phoenix, we're too busy struggling to keep the ASBP afloat from NZF indifference/incompetence.
not sure how playing for the u20s will stop players playing in the o-league and world club cup? surely once the ASBP has finished they will simply go back to their clubs. Don't actually see why they will have to transfer away from the club in first place.
Except the clubs will be playing players throughout the regular season who won't just step aside once the ASBP has finished to allow in Under 20 AW's for the O League. To be in the O league you need to solidify your place in the ASBP regular season.
I can´t understand this expansion.
Manawatu played in the O-League and in the Play-Offs. Six years ago, ok, but in Europe the UEFA also don´t cancel a club only for sporting reasons.
And another Question. A player like Simon Arms, Mathew Ridenton or Dylan Stansfield can play in the NZ U20 or for Auckland/Waitakere international in the O-League, maybe in the FIFA Club-Worldcup.(In Germany ist this a great honour)
The most players will be recruited from Manawatu, Cantebury, TW, or so, but the players from the two big sides in NZ have to make a heavy decision.
Why the NZFC haven´t included Nelson or South Auckland or Wairarapa? Team Wellington(5) + Manawatu(3) had the half of the "NZ U20" 2013(based in NZ). And players like Howieson, Roux, Crocombe or Fenton will not play for the NZ U20 in the ASB Premiership!
So I see a team: 8-10 players they really play for NZ U20 2015 and 8-10 players they called ?"stopgap"?
And this is the future of NZ football?
Frankly I'd prefer Manawatu were still in it rather than this absurd Under 20 side. Of course Nelson or South Auckland are no-brainers other than in the muddled penny-pinching corridors of NZF.
I was bobsmacked the other day to learn that NZF are planning on replicating the NZ-Central America-NZ schedule of the home and away World Cup qualification playoffs as a warm up games exercise just before the actual games. Wonderful thinking! Lets exhaust the players with lots of international travel just before - ummm - they have to undertake lots of international travel.
Is anyone able to confirm this?
Simulation is not unusual in world sport. The playoff mechanics are so singular that it warrants some kind of formal planning. It wasn't that long ago we were moaning about our lack of foresight when we just rocked up in (wherever it was) and failed to qualify for the Confed cup. I know I'm starting to sound like an apologist for NZF but I've been a sports administrator at all levels up to and including international level (other sport) and can see its not all doom and gloom. some people might not agree on a certain method but there is more than one way to skin a cat. I'm certain there are enough other people in this forum with similar backgrounds to me that might agree..... are there? lol
I have to say TrueBlue that I think this is actually the right move. As Napier Phoenix says, simulation is better than rocking up and finding out after the fact we were missing something in our preparation. I do accept though that this could go the other way as well that you have pointed out.
I guess I would rather try it and fail rather than 'well we should have done that'. Honiara showed our preparation was severely lacking.
not sure how playing for the u20s will stop players playing in the o-league and world club cup? surely once the ASBP has finished they will simply go back to their clubs. Don't actually see why they will have to transfer away from the club in first place.
Except the clubs will be playing players throughout the regular season who won't just step aside once the ASBP has finished to allow in Under 20 AW's for the O League. To be in the O league you need to solidify your place in the ASBP regular season.
wouldn't this be the coaches say, no player is ever going to step aside. if the u20 player is good enough he will be in the squad whether he has played with the side all season or not.
Simulation is not unusual in world sport. The playoff mechanics are so singular that it warrants some kind of formal planning. It wasn't that long ago we were moaning about our lack of foresight when we just rocked up in (wherever it was) and failed to qualify for the Confed cup. I know I'm starting to sound like an apologist for NZF but I've been a sports administrator at all levels up to and including international level (other sport) and can see its not all doom and gloom. some people might not agree on a certain method but there is more than one way to skin a cat. I'm certain there are enough other people in this forum with similar backgrounds to me that might agree..... are there? lol
as long as there's sufficient rest between each sequence, i also think it's a good idea
<snip>
<snip> Of course Nelson or South Auckland are no-brainers other than in the muddled penny-pinching corridors of NZF.
I dunno about Nelson. I have a quid each way. Great, passionate football region, but not convinced there's the talent there for a competitive ASBP team. Bit like Palmy, really.
South AUckland is a no-brainer.
What about the inclusion of U-17 side into national league instead of other poor team? :)
What about the inclusion of U-17 side into national league instead of other poor team? :)
That would be 13/14 year old kids if you did it a year in advance like they are with the 20s.
....while you're at it sleeper we could add the Silver Ferns to our National League.
....while you're at it sleeper we could add the Silver Ferns to our National League.
Haha!
I really don't get the angst against it. This league is a franchise league. Would other people be worried is someone applied for a franchise, recruited players from the U20s, and got Chris Milicich to coach them, but call them something other that the U20. Pretty much the same thing.
Pretty much this ^. It's been happening in Waikato for years...
I really don't get the angst against it. This league is a franchise league. Would other people be worried is someone applied for a franchise, recruited players from the U20s, and got Chris Milicich to coach them, but call them something other that the U20. Pretty much the same thing.
It's really not. It's a weak argument and you're supporting NZF's sad excuse to not pay for international competition for our best young players. The best U20's will already be playing in the ASBP bar a few in 2013/14 and 2014/15 in the lead up to the World Cup here so I really don't see the point. Also how many times have we seen a NZ youth side picked for a tourny in Oceania only for it to change radically by the actual Fifa tourney? And what happens if say 7-8 of the best U20's decide to play elsewhere (here or overseas) do they miss out? Or does Milicich bring them in and cut a whole bunch of guys he's been prepping for two years or does he simply ignore that talent at the behest of NZF. It's going to cause a lot of problems...
If Manawatu needed to be cut then fine but bring in an actual 'franchise' and not the NZU20 although I really feel for YM and I bet all those years feel wasted now.