National League review and future

There's a lot to like about the Aussie state leagues but a lot of their funding comes from charging juniors ridiculously high fees to play.

But isn't a middle ground often more beneficial than having 2 extremes?

it isn't bringing everyone down to the lowest denominator, it is bringing other clubs up and one or two down. 

Beneficial to who though? Any system that penalises any party for being too good at what it does loses a bit of credibility in my eyes. ACFC aren't doing anything that rules don't allow. If more time and energy was spent on getting the other franchises up to speed, than trying to drag ACC back into the bunch - then those clubs would be much better off. If everyone was doing the very best that they could do  and ACFC was keeping ahead of everyone because they had access to more money, then I might be swayed towards your point of view. I suspect though, that most of the franchises can and should do better than what they are doing presently. Desire and ability/performance are not always the same I'm afraid.

I think we all want a commercially viable national league . The problem is that the regional sides don't have the same access to the funding dollar as the big centres . The model for funding is that the trusts like to distribute the money back into the centres it came from

I know in the Waikato there are only two major founders , lion foundation and NZCT . The same applies to Otago and Manawatu so I find it increasing frustrating to hear comments that other franchises outside Auckland don't care about the national league in so much words

I'm not a Auckland fan but I do admire them for what they have done . Without Auckland the league would not exist . The problem is the NZF has not shown leadership. It should be helping the franchises who don't have access to the big funding $ . The NRL subsidies Melbourne

I'm not a fan of the franchise system but how many clubs could afford to play in the National League at the moment. Not many I would say . The money NZF gets from Auckland from the wcc should go back to the franchises/ clubs rather than NZ under age sides

The cost of the national league is far to high . That problem needs to be addressed 

I think if the light was really shone into the dark corners of the pokie distribution system football would certainly not be as concerned as a lot of other sports.  The money going into pokies has to go somewhere, if you take it away how do you fund amateur sport in NZ??

When you say without Auckland, do you mean without the gamblers of Auckland?

Trillion and ACFC aren't operating outside the current rules. The pressure won't be coming from the DIA it will be coming from the public. The story in the Sunday Star Times is just the start. The new reporting rules are going to make it much easier to see where the money goes and communities will be much better placed to decide whether they think it is going to the right places. Football doesn't exist in a vacuum.

They do heaps of good stuff but ACFC's funding model is not sustainable in the long term and not what other franchises should be seeking to replicate.

didn't you say that five years ago?

The argument that "other sports are worse than us" is disingenuous and a poor excuse for football (and specifically the ASBP) not sorting its shark out and trying to put the sport on a more stable footing.

This is not about taking all pokie money away from football or amateur sport. Most communities would agree that funding amateur sport is a good use of pokie money (alongside other good uses). But how many communities do you really believe are going to willingly sign up to handing over $750k a year of pokie money to their local ASBP franchise? Especially when a large chunk of that money is to pay overseas 'professionals' to deliver 'coaching' in their communities when there are already a multitude of providers out there already doing the same thing?

I'm not sure you are reading the mood of the people correctly. Who really gives a shark about where the pokie money is going? If this forum is any indication, its only people that don't want Auckland City from getting so much. For this sea change, that you talk about, to happen, there has to be some huge catalyst that provokes that. I don't think the fact that some football clubs are getting more than others is going to be that. Right we can bitch and moan if our application gets knocked back because Trillian gives all of their money to Auckland City but the reality is that there are other places to go and apply. My bitch is that pokie money goes to racing clubs which I don't perceive as being deserving of the intended use of gambling funds but it doesn't piss me off so much that I'm going to march on Parliament, I'd reckon there would be much less concern about football getting money.

Really interested in what you think is going to make the public rise up in revolt over this issue?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/football/domestic/685...

The next ASB Premiership season could be its last....

Hello club based competition.

Martin's whole statement indicates a club based competition if there is one at all.

Bet there are a few Queens Counsels already warming up for the battles to come ?

Martin indicated that something would rise in the Premiership's place. although it would have to be pretty special to meet his requirements.

"It's got to be sustainable, it's got to be broadcastable, it's got to be connected across the game and it's got to have a clear purpose," said Martin

Assuming this applies to womens game too? How on earth is it to be funded, if not by gaming trusts? What impact, if any, does potential Oceania direct entry into World Cup have? Apparently, Martin says this decision is imminent after May 30 FIFA election.

It looks like the National Franchise League hasn't worked as planned then. It would seem that we have some franchises that are really winter clubs in disguise and others like HBU that could quite easily morph back into an existing winter club [Napier City Rovers]. If anything [in HB anyway] it would take the local Federation out of the mix in terms of a hands on role in running a club and back into the hands of club members and executives. I think we wouldn't see too much that is more detrimental to the growth of the game than now. Except maybe a lot of Auckland teams but that is where the population is so that will just follow. Looking forward to what happens.

Just the list on Wikipedia of the different guises the national competition has taken makes you laugh

First league incarnation    

1970 1971 1972 1973 1974 1975 1976 1977 1978 1979

1980 19811982 1983 1984 1985 1986 1987 1988 1989

1990 1991 1992

Superclub competition

1993 1994 1995

National Summer Soccer League

1996 1996–97 1997–98

New Zealand island soccer leagues

1999

Second league incarnation (National Club Championship)

2000 2001 2002 2003

New Zealand Football Championship (ASB Premiership)

2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 

2014 2015

without trying to be cynical the "new" national league will probably look like this:

Central

Waitakere?

+ maybe Western Springs (national league club in waiting)

Melville

Napier City

Wairarapa?

Miramar

Nelson Suburbs?

Cashmere

Dunedin Tech

So I guess while I kind of don't like the franchise system what are we really changing here, the names of the teams competing?

You are probably pretty much on the money there Chopah. Likely to be a bit of jockeying though. The likes of Waitakere might face some organised and stiff opposition from some cashed up clubs just waiting for such a possibility. Like those big spenders at Ellerslie

not sure if tongue in cheek about us being cashed up - I think we have a lot of things going for us but I personally think national league is a step to far at the moment - we have some finance issues with some massive commitments coming up and I think we are better off investing in things like facilities and infrastructure than pouring money down a black hole.

What I would like to see (probably won't happen) is that resource is poured into what I deem the four major leagues in NZ

they are:

NRFL

Central League

Mainland League

Southern

Give these leagues resource and have them run in a longer season (say Jan to September - grounds will be an issue granted) and then have a champions league type playoff at the end in August/October.  Winner of the champions league is our representative in the O-league (1 spot only).

For me if football is this country is ever going to catch up to some of the rest of the world we need to have longer seasons.

It doesn't make sense for teams to be spending money travelling all over the place in a national league only to play 18 games or something - get in a 38 game season + cup games and playoffs at the end of the season and money can be spent on facilities, broadcasting etc.

Broadcasting could be relatively easy, maybe 1 game per round at a neutral venue that is pre-setup for camera's - say somewhere like Bill McKinley Park or in CHCH ASB Stadium?  So 4 games per week on TV and that would be a massive boost for exposure.

Some of what you say there is correct Chopah (about length of seasons)

However the rest of it sounds very much like the (not so) Superclub format of the early 1990's.

I've watched all the various incarnations of the National League since 1970 (Western Subs v Mt Wellington at Evans Bay Parade was the opening day fixture that I attended) and they all had their weaknesses , but the Superclub was undoubtedly the worst.

We can't afford to have a National league , but we can't afford not to.

I honestly don't know what the answer is other than it must be club based.

plus Phoenix B

SC Wanderers is a dead duck now I assume?

Maybe Wellington's Western Suburbs?

I can see at least one other Chch club having a look at it

Plus, any word on the womens side of things?

Auckland City played 37 games this season OFC Presidents cup, ASB, CWC, OFC Champions league not sure how many more games players could play in extended season.

Broadcasting would be great but would a club based league be as broadcast-able product? when the ASB apparently is not and the franchises are supposed to be a condensed talent pool of the best players from all 4 major leagues.

No easy answers but can clubs really afford to enter this kind of competition?  Are we just going to revert to a super league which bankrupted several clubs?

Is this basic signalling that the top league is not there to produce professional players or supply the All Whites? The jump from ASB to HAL is rather large, wouldn't this get larger if moved to a more fragmented club based league?

Big assumption.

I wonder if anyone has pointed out to Martin that a sustainable, broadcastable national competition has never existed in New Zealand before.

I think it's naive from Martin and a massive backward step.  There is a reason the NSL died and was replaced and it was because it stopped being broadcastable and viable.  Australia switched to franchises because it could market them.

If this league is treated as shabbily by NZ Football as the ASB Premiership has been but with clubs it will set the concept of a national league back fifteen years.

Why do we not learn from our mistakes and why do we have the CEO reigns to people without a clue about sport in this country?

"It's got to have a clear purpose," said Martin.

[/quote]

Broadcasting would be great but would a club based league be as broadcast-able product? when the ASB apparently is not and the franchises are supposed to be a condensed talent pool of the best players from all 4 major leagues.

[/quote]

People care more about club football and 'their club' than they do about the franchise league in my opinion - much more local rivalry/derbies and association - especially with the kids. I reckon its marketable and broadcastable. With a champions league style format at the end or playoffs.

Maybe I'm wrong but it's the lack of NZ Football involvement at club level (rightly or wrongly) which means clubs are self-governed and district directed and don't really care about the longer term effect of NZF involvement. The whole system needs a shakeup - but not from the bottom-up - it has to be from the top-down with some big investment. We have the numbers and the participation rates - we should therefore have the money...

Who's prospective PM material in one of the two main parties that might have football leanings/ origins?

I'd agree with people caring more about club than franchise. On the other side of that, I took my young fella to several WaiBOP Utd games this year and he really got into it. I wouldn't be taking him to see a club team in a new look league though, simply because there is no club involved which I have any affection for or association with. So that's an example of $$$ disappearing from the turnstiles. Should be easier to market a franchise, in theory anyway, to a wider geographical market than marketing a club based league. In my opinion.

So the early reckoning is that no-one can see how this will happen. No surprise there. Is Martin naive enough to knock the "franchise" model on its head, without having some sort of plan to fund a national club league? Does he have an Ace to play? And what about Youth and Women? It surely has to be part of the discussion.

The problem is that club loyalty may be stronger but it's stronger among 20-50 people at each club.  That's not a credible way to get 1000 people at a game to make it worthy of broadcast.  Particularly as the other 20-50 at every other club are going 'hell no, they are our rivals, I'm not supporting them'.

I just hope this is well thought out and not just based on an ideological preference for a club-based competition.

Whether or not the league is franchise or club based isn't the major issue, its the funding and the marketing that matter. 

The league may be propped up by gaming trusts, but that's not really different than the 70's and 80's when it relied on tobacco sponsorship to survive. So if Andy Martin can find a reliable and consistence funding source that would be amazing, he would really be earning his money then.

Marketing a national league is always going to be difficult, the crouds are never going to be huge, but  NZF need to show they actually care about the league, adding the U20s and a general lack of promotion shows that they don't really. The type of league needs defined, rugby managed to re-invent the NPC as a league for up and coming players, do NZF need to do the same with the premiership?

One thing I have liked about the franchise league is at least its stayed pretty much the same for the last 10 years, not like the 90's where we changed every 3 years

Exactly. Once any club gets past the first couple rounds of the Chatham Cup the crouds tend to swell and there is a big interest in every remaining cup game. Attendances for a lot of these games probably exceed that at most ASB games (ACFC and Canterbury aside). So throw in an end of season competition where the carrot is an O-League spot, and you'll get fans in.

Also i never got the argument about not going to watch because you don't have an affiliation with the club or they're your rivals. Surely if there's decent (for NZ, anyway) enough football on offer you'll go watch. I've gone to watch a number of different teams in Auckland this season that i have nothing to do with, some who aren't even in the same division as the club i support. And from recognizing who you see around footballing circles up here i can tell i'm not the only one.

People thinking the franchise system is the only answer then point to the A-League or MLS as an example aren't seeing the differences between NZ and those countries. For a start, both those leagues are fully professional, ours is amateur. That creates problems with growing the league financially and also the popularity of the league. It is highly unlikely we will have a fully professional and sustainable national league in either the short-term or long-term future.

The ASB has been dying a slow death for years now, first it was cut from 3 to 2 rounds, thanks to Hekari qualifying for the CWC ahead of Waitak. Since then stories have come out every year about any number of franchises in dire financial straits. The CWC money has kept the league afloat, if another Hekari happened the league would probably fold. And quickly going back to the affiliation debate, i doubt you could convince many people that there will be hundreds out there who are Wanderers SC or Wellington Phoenix Reserves till they die.

Is this really a fair comparison? Cup games always tend to attract more people, do these people also go and see the club in their remaining league games?

it could also be evidence that a franchise league is better at attracting casuals to watch. 

Later cup rounds tend to be "our region vs some other region" which is exactly what a franchise system is. 

Of course a national club based league would generally end up being the same thing (just in a less obvious way than a franchise system would be). 

I'd be very surprised if any central league game had more people than a TeeDubs game. although weather and own playing committements might change that if they played in summer.