Phoenix and the OCL

Phoenix and the OCL

In NZ earlier this year there was a lot of talk about Graham Seatter wanting the Phoenix to be the Oceania representatives in the OCL. Rightly so, this caused a lot of controversy among the NZFC community.

Now, I've been having a look at the situation with Canada and the MLS because, let's face it, NZ to the A-League is the same as Canada is to MLS, ie: one franchise in the league and their own pyramid below that. The Canadians have found a good way to dictate its representative in the CONCACAF Champions League and I wondered what Kiwi fans would think of the following:

Toronto FC (MLS) play against the two other full-time professional clubs in Canada (Vancouver Whitecaps and Montreal Impact). It's a home and away series spread over the first couple of months of the season. Whitecaps and Impact both play in the second tier of pro football in North America, USL 1 (because Canada's own national-style league is only amateur, and regional at best). The winner of the mini-league then goes on to represent Canada in the CCL (this year won by Montreal, so the biggest club doesn't always have to win it).

My question is, do Kiwi fans think the same could work in NZ? If the Phoenix and the, say, top two NZFC teams played a mini group to decide who qualifies to represent NZ? I know the seasons are different but the Aussies seem to manage the ACL OK and out of season. I bet a lot of the NZFC clubs would love a crack at the Phoenix too. Just an idea and any opinions welcome... PSG552008-09-30 23:43:50

The problem here is that it has the complexity of separate confederations.  The Phoenix as an Australian club side are Asian whereas the NZFC sides and the O-League are Oceanian.

The destination for Toronto through either path is the same competition, that isn't the case here.
Hard News2008-09-30 23:58:15

I'd like to see it happen, but as News says, the inter-confederation situation complicates matters. Nix vs Waitakere and Wellington (based on last years's finish) would be very interesting though, and I dare say would bring in big crowds.

would be an interesting comp, but way too complex for NZ Football to organise.

As much as I wish it weren't so, Auckland got the second O-League spot, not Wellington.

This year, however...

Well if a mini-league is possible, there is only one confederation champion league path that is ever going to be possible for all the teams.

If we are talking about a team to represent NZ then only the O-league path is open and of course ACL is never an option.

I have mention this before, the only way FIFA will recognise Wellington Phoenix as part of the Oceania to participate in the O-league is to win a domestic competition. Currently the only path to the O-league that is open for the NZ teams is the NZFC. Basically for the Phoenix to enter into the O-league they have to be the champion of the competition they are in. But since the competition is the Australian A-league, it does not fulfilled criteria as it is an asian competition.

The only solution as I see it, at the end of the respective season is for the Phoenix to play in a just over a month long NZF mini league competition against the NZFC Minor Premier Champion, and the NZFC Grand final Champion at the end of the season. (It has to be a league system because of the rules)

Because of the nature of the last NZFC season, then it would be Phoenix up against ACFC and WUFC. Four games each to determine the top two.

The sticky part of all this is the local rules on the imported players in the club. As it would not be an even playing ground in the mini-league competition. But there is no rules concerning this at O-league or at FIFA's Club World Cup. NZF could ignore this rule if they wanted to with the NZFC clubs protest. But they should consider opening up the import players rule and expand the number of NZFC teams as it would attract quality import players and some of them may then be naturalised for NZ as it were for some in the 70s and 80s.AllWhitebelievr2008-10-03 01:12:44

I wonder if at any stage Terry Serepisos would consider taking over the the Team Wellington franchise and renaming it Wellington Phoenix, and as a result having two Nox teams; one playing in the NZFC and one in the A League? The NZFC side could be the reserve side (for want of a better term).

I wonder if at any stage Terry Serepisos would consider taking over the the Team Wellington franchise and renaming it Wellington Phoenix, and as a result having two Nix teams; one playing in the NZFC and one in the A League? The NZFC side could be the reserve side (for want of a better term). TheJam2008-10-03 08:41:37

But they would still be two separate teams as two registered entities with FIFA (via their respective FAs), so I don't think that just having the same owner and identical names would make any difference. The players would remain registered to one or other and any movement between them would be a transfer, with the usual rules governing the number of transfers a player can have during a season.

Itd be an international transfer too

International transfer rules are a bit ugly as well.

'cept fpr the international transfer rule, its a good idea.

As I understand. . .

The Wellington Phoenix is not a normal member under FFA. The FFA is not their FA. They have no voting rights nor have a member on their respective boards.

They are only invited for A-League competition via NZF's A-League Licence. NZF officially has the A-League Licence. Wellington Phoenix is classed as an international team that participates in the A-League. An international team from NZ. As an invited international team to the competition, the players of the club automatically has international clearance for the A-League as being part of the club. Only concern is club to club transfers not international ones as FIFA committee allowed this as an exception to the normal rules. International transfers only applies to non-Australian and non- New Zealand based players like Lei Lei Gao coming over from MyPa for an example. It does not exist for Durnate or Sigmund from coming into the Wellington Phoenix.

Wellington Phoenix belongs to NZF not FFA. If they don't belong to NZF, they cannot have NZF's A-league Licence.

So international transfers are not the real issue.

As for Team Wellington and Wellington Phoenix, you need to wage a merger as they are separate franchises with different competitions that are run by different FAs. That is the sticky part but not unsolvable.

First the NZFC is a semi-professional competition involving NZ teams only. That is OK because the Wellington Phoenix is a NZ team under the NZF authority because the NZF has the A-League Licence.

Secondly the A-League is a professional competition involving Australian teams plus one invited NZ team. It is a stand alone competition as it does not involved promotion and relegation with the other semi-professional state league competitions. But it does have a national youth league competition which allows each of the Australian A-League Franchises to have a second team that allows certain amount of overagers that is left of the named saturday squad to participate. This is a semi-professional competition.

ATM, we don't have a youth team in the competition but there is no real reason as to why a Wellington Phoenix youth team (plus overagers) cannot play in the NZFC as it is a semi-professional competition. I think that NZF has in the past, reserved NZ Development teams participation in the NZFC so it can be done for the Wellington Phoenix.

AllWhitebelievr2008-10-07 14:49:13

Its an international transfer as theyre going from an oceania tournament to an asian tournament. NZF may hold the license,but it is an australian license...much like foreign ownership (NZF being like...the glazer family to manchester united (without the money of course haha)...NZF owning the license is somewhat irrelevent here...but i see how that can get confused)

Firstly, International transfer is where you transferred from one club in one association to another club in another association. It does not matter what competition it is under.

If a club in NZ under NZF is going to an invited tournament in Spain, it does not need to fill out any international transfer because it is a tournament in UEFA. Because it is "invited".

The licence is not like foreign ownership. FFA does not own the licences, they authorises the licence. The FFA issues the licence out and it expires at a date and then reissues another licence for another time period. ATM after five seasons there will reissuing of the licences. The licence will not be the same one, it will renewed. Just like your drivers licence, you own your licence and cannot hand it to another person to own. you just get another one when the time is up. NZF is the owner of the licence but they get a special condition that says +1. Similar to an car insurance, you name yourself as the driver and you add another person if you want to so they can have the same cover for the same car if they drive it.

Wellington Phoenix is registered with NZF for the A-league licence and is a registered guest in the A-league competition. But it is not a registered member of the FFA, so it cannot vote or have their say in the Australian football scene. It can't be registered because it is registered with NZF.

They are not like the NZ knights. NZ knights was not registered with either NZS nor FFA but only registered as an A-league guest participant.

NZS could not interfere with NZ Knights affair as they wish to but NZF can interfere with Wellington Phoenix affair if they need to. It was specially design as a safeguard because the FFA didn't want another NZ Knight problem and so instead of issuing the licence to Wellington Phoenix (which did not exist at that time) they issue it to NZF to govern it.

The call by NZF was for any NZ club or franchise to have the sub-licence to the A-league and the conditions are they have to register with NZF. Both FFA and NZF wanted the new NZ club to register with NZF. NZS (now NZF) had problems with NZ knight/football kingz cooperating with NZ soccer system because ithey did their own thing away from NZ football affairs. I have read the NZS reports.

This is not the case with Wellington Phoenix. I have checked on the FFA A-league policies and NZ Knights and Wellington Phoenix are special guest to the competition and not registered with the FFA.AllWhitebelievr2008-10-10 03:31:53

The clubs may not be registered with FFA but the players are. That is the problem.

Just get NZFC to invite the welly nix's Revserve to play in the comp?

Only the seven australian A-league franchises are with the FFA and their players are registered with the FFA. The seven Australian A-league franchise cannot have any New Zealand Players without being classified as an imported player. If the Wellington Phoenix was an Australian A-league franchise, they would have exceed the import numbers to the club. But they are not, they are New Zealand A-league franchise. Quite a lot of difference.

The players of the Wellington Phoenix are in an invited club to the A-league competition and has the rights to veto the registration to FFA under the special invitation.

The Australian players should have international transfers into the Wellington Phoenix as the club is under NZF is another association and they cannot play for NZF affiliated club while registered with another association, despite it being under a FFA competition. They represent the NZF affiliated club in the A-league and so they should be registered with the NZF.

The Wellington Phoenix are an invited international club by the FFA with special exceptions to the rule with the FIFA blessings.

An O-league entry would not even be considered by the NZF and the OFC if this was not sorted out as the above. there is no real other way to do this otherwise.

Well here's the latest:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/a-league-soccer/news/article.cfm?c_id=523&objectid=10538251

Mmmm. . . the issues are the duel registration (not really suppose to have that unless FIFA actually said it was OK. . . but I hear no word about in expanded form), professionals playing in an Amateur competition and throwing the right to not go to O-league if they win the League (but that is crazy IHO because the O-league winners will play against professionals clubs in the CWC.)

Reserve Phoenix team against the NZFC teams are quite mouth watering TBH.AllWhitebelievr2008-10-21 12:03:09

I'd be really interested to hear Tony P's view on AWB's reading of the situation. 

Apparently the issue of phoenix youfs playing in the NZF came up at the Q and A seesion with Tony P.Was there anyone there who can shed some light on this?

OMG, someone has been saying that since day one... 

I know, it was just for AWB

does the Asian Champions League have foreign player restrictions?

Yes.  Max three, talk is next year that will change to 3 +1 Asian 'foreign' player.

so all of the New Zealanders would be classified as 'foreign' since, for ACL purposes, the Phoenix would be an 'Australian' team?

For ACL purposes ?  Yes.

It is one of the problems that would need to be overcome.
Hard News2008-11-13 16:44:45

Strewth mate, happyted has been right about so many things.

Excuse me while I throw another shrimp on the barbie...

That really does not say much at all.

The question is "Who" has told them that and "Why." Because noone has justify it clear enough. It was a decision based on what? So far, I have followed every written document policy that points otherwise. What is their justification? Or was the decision made because they couldn't be bothered to check things out "properly".

My impression from the very outset is that FIFA couldn't care less about a small NZ club as long they play in the Australian league for professional purposes and that AFC's ACL cannot bare to have an NZ oceania team winning the ACL for professional pride and selfish reasons. AFC wants to avoid making considerations for NZ entry to their Asian confederation and prevent OFC and AFC merging. They hate FIFA pushing this agenda.

And believe me, FIFA has this Agenda to merge the two confederations. But policies in the two confederation and FIFA are established and almost inmovable that would prevent this from happening and FIFA must be seen not to force any of the confederations decisions or they could face damaging arbitration from courts.

But besides those "conspiracy" rumours, they still got it wrong and someone haven't bother in getting a good lawyer/mediator . . . . yet.

Anyway if the Nix can get in either of the ACL or O-League, then that is an agreeable outcome. If they able to get in ACL, well kudos for them, but I believe it is not right and someone who does not want them in ACL can easily form a very strong argument not to include them. If so, then the Nix are still back to square one and may never be able to have a pathway to the CWC.

The next agenda for the FIFA may be to scrap OFC's CWC participation and merge the OFC pathway through into the ACL pathway much to AFC contempt. Therefore the writing is on the wall already for the O-league pathway to CWC and there would be an Oceania group in the ACL competition.

But alas, when everything goes custard, then shoot the bureaucrats and have a revolution to overthrown the FIFA executive committee.

The latest is that Tony P is quoted as working to advance themselves into the AFC after the FIFA has declared them as an Australian side.



This is a good move and is good reading of the situation. (tbh, they obviously taken what I have said about the licensing as being very important in their bid to be a fully fledge Australian.) This should remove any doubts about the registration and allow access should they have this sorted.

However, I have grave concerns about the restricted number of foreign player imports in the ACL without some decent player expansion to the A-league squads. Tony P and FFA has to sort that out somehow. The restricted of the foreign player imports in the ACL needs to be sorted at AFC level. I think if any restriction should only be applied, it should applied to the number on the playing field rather than the number in a squad.

An increase of foreign players number would be good. This would be also a problem with New Zealanders in having been classified as foreign but if asian players are not consider as foreign or have a separate classification for imports for AFC players and non-AFC players that are not Australian then the matter can be solved. If AFC can allow different classification of the foreign imports, then maybe the issue can have more flexibility as to the construct of the teams in the AFC.

Also I believe that there should not have a restricted number of players per squad so that is up to the clubs to decide their own numbers as it is a balance between the players that get enough game time and budget. Not many players would like to stay on the bench for long if they are not used well by the club.

So if the Phoenix are declared to be an Australian Club to the satisfaction of the AFC, then the only thing is for the A-league is to have an Pro-Reg system in place. This will promote FFA chances to have 4 teams in the ACL.

as a fully fledged Aussie regisistered club, would the kiwi players not be considered Aussie as they are all registered for an Australian club? that to my mind negates the forein player policy and therefore only the imported Brazilian's would fit into the foreign player category.

That's the crux of the problem. It is precisely because we are considered an Aussie club that the Kiwi players are treated as foreign for the ACL. What we need is special dispensation, like we have from the FFA, for that not to be the case.

O-League crowds in the island nations put the Nix and NZFC to shame.

KOLOALE FC Vs HEKARI SOUTHS UNITED FC
Solomon Islands
Saturday 22 November 2008
Attendance: 14,000

WAITAKERE UNITED Vs PORT VILA SHARKS

Group A
Trusts Stadium
Henderson
Saturday 22 November 2008
Attendance: 400.

Think this shows alot of things wrong with NZ football.
Last season KOLOALE FC had 20,000+ at the O-League final home game. convict2008-11-23 02:45:04