WeeNix - NZ National League

Totally

So we all agree that it doesn't happen anywhere else in the world but we are OK with it because the NZ Football landscape is "unique"?

Wouldn't it be better for the young Weenix players to have to strive to qualify rather than just be given the spot for existing?

What happens if they finish last in the Central League and get relegated? 

They will just partner with another club in Central league instead.

Do we know for certain that it's doesn't happen anywhere else in the world, with other small football countries like NZ, that don't have their own professional league?

Does the Vaduz reserve side, get guaranteed a spot in the Liechtenstein top flight, given their first team play in Switzerland? Ditto Singaporean or Brunei teams who compete in the Malaysian Superleague (if that still happens).

As Nelfoos said plenty of reserve teams at European clubs get given a spot in their various 2nd/3rd tiers. It's all about maximising young player development for the overall national football good. 

NZF are basically doing the same, just that national 2nd or 3rd tiers don't exist in NZ. The top flight (Handy Prem or the future playoff format) basically already being a development comp.

This is why NZ Football as a whole is a laughing stock in the global scheme of things.

The best thing any decent young player can do is leave the NZ system as soon as possible - like Winston did, Tommy Smith did, Chris Wood did etc...

Reid moved to Denmark with his mum & Danish stepdad aged 10. Smith I understand was born in the UK, spent some of his youth in NZ, then returned to Blighty with his family. I think only Wood left NZ for football reasons.

NZ system ain't perfect, but the U20s strong showing at their WC in Poland, showed what's possible. A side of players almost entirely (only Stensness and Stanger aside) who had come through the 'NZ system'. Much of the core of that side coming from two young Handy Prem teams that year in Eastern Suburbs and the Weenix, who benefited from many playing hours together in NZ's top flight among other factors.

Spain, Germany to name two.

Not so with Germany. Bayern II were in German 4th tier 2 seasons ago. 

Think there is very limited relegation from Dutch 2nd tier, meaning Jong sides there like Ajax II pretty well safe.

There isn't a Liechtenstein top flight hence why Vaduz play in the Swiss league

Singapore set up their own league in 1996, before that they played in the Malaysian league

I'm concerned that the Weenix players are going to feel a sense of entitlement that they will automatically make the playoffs each year (no matter where they finish in the league) and therefore this will stunt their development and attitude in the Central League this year.

Meanwhile, all other teams in the top leagues of NZ will be striving for success, taking more risks to win games and generally trying harder to achieve success. Weenix have it handed to them and I can't see why that is a good thing for these young players.

When they play Ole this season it will be interesting to see how the entitled players compete with the hungry players.

I'm still waiting to hear about any other top domestic league in the world that allows this to happen like we are

Singapore LIONSXII (now dissolved) won Malaysian Super League in 2013.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Super_Leagu...

The Nix playing in Australia, across countries ain't totally unique. Across Confederations maybe so.

probably give up now

Obviously it is NZF's mandate to develop football, but the extension of that to giving them licence to run comps carte blanche is a long bow perhaps

Would agree if these were professionals comps - but these are not. (Depending on the desire/skills of the club accountants to hide the player payments)

I don't think there's any basis for those concerns really. These boys know what it takes to make it as a professional footballer, they've watched past teammates have success in the A-League and go on to sign for strong European clubs.

They aren't in the National League to win games (hence why they can't qualify for the semi-finals in the current system), they are there to develop as players - which is part of a much larger debate about what the NZ National League exists to achieve. They've been more successful this year in the National League than any previous year (performance-wise, if not points-wise) and there's no reason that that won't continue in the coming seasons. As such, I don't think there will be a significant change in what you see from the Weenix as they currently operate to LHFC in the winter. 

If you know anything about the Nix academy and the staff running it, you'll be well aware that they keep the boys grounded, focused and mindful of what they need to be doing to achieve success - if they weren't, they wouldn't have been as successful as they have been!

Looking at this photo, he's either 5 yards outside the box back to goal, with a defender coming across to cover, or he's 85 yards outside the box with 9 opposition players between him and the goal. 

Either way I thought that is not a straight red. Watching the video did nothing to change my mind.

The second red, no problem with it being red, but there is no excuse for sending the wrong player, and the feeble explanation that he was discussing with the linesman whether it was inside or outside the box is a crock. Contact was out at the edge of the D, and Old lying on the ground was still outside the box so it should never have been in question. If he can see the foul he can see who did it.

It was not good refereeing.

are you referring to the other Centre back (i think it's Kurtis Mogg?) - I don't think he is getting there.  Clearly Kingsley is on the half turn here when #5 kicks him and then grabs him - it's definitely  DOGSO for me.

If Sinclair's touch is actually half-decent there you might have had a case, but the touch is absolutely terrible and ends up 5-6 yards away from him, meaning that not only is he not in position to shoot immediately after the turn, but he isn"t even guaranteed to maintain possession and the covering defender definitely has an opportunity to get there first.

As for the second red, how you manage to send off the wrong player when only one WeeNix player is actually near the ball in a 15-yard radius should be basically inexplicable and impossible, but it was Nick Waldron, so it actually makes perfect sense.

Hello there. I think it is fair enough to criticise Nick Waldron for making a wrong decision in this specific instance.

But for me it is a step too far to then sardonically slag him off by saying seeing it was him "it actually makes perfect sense".

For many years Nick has been among NZ's top three refs. Overall, I would argue he has done a fine job and been a great servant of the code.

Yes, he's made a cock-up and the misconduct regime we (and him) operate under has little respect for natural justice, but the game would be poorer for not having blokes like him making the big calls.

I would invite you to reflect on that from the sanctity of your nom-de-plume next time you have a pop at blokes like Nick Waldron.

Thanks. 

Waldron is a terrible referee. I've told him that to his face and will happily do so again next time I get the opportunity.

that's fudgeing shocking man

No one has to take my point of view that these are both dogso ( i have watched them now). You don't have to believe me, because unlike Waldron, i am actually a terrible referee, and am mostly comfortable with my limitations.

FWIW, every good referee i have spoken to (who matter and stuff) agrees with Waldron on the day about dogso; they would have just tried to dispatch the red card in the second incident to the right individual.

(Of course, refs are all corrupt and stuff,and only ever protect their own, and stuff, but there really is no contention at a level way beyond mine that these were both dogso.)

I agree with Bruce.  I have been critical of some referees in the past but never been the situation of having the absolute expertise to make public derogatory statements.  How about grabbing a whistle and showing us all how good you are.

A perfect example of the "best referees are sitting in the grandstand".  

Hah, that classic fallacy 'do it yourself then'. Which basically means that no-one should ever be criticised for their incompetence.

Thank you for your perceptive contribution.

There is no way I would suggest that a referee should not be open to criticism, much in the same way that players are.  The part I find confusing is the emphatic statement that "Waldron is a terrible referee".  This is from a qualified person?  Someone who has refereed in the past?  A person who is an authority on all things in the game?  Someone who doesn't watch the A League and Premier League and seen some of the decisions there?  

You are entitled to your opinion and I respect that.  It also means that I am entitled to my opinion as well.  With the statement you have made it is no wonder that our game struggles to get people to take up the whistle.

I watched the Phoenix Reserves play on Saturday.

They played 4-4-2 like the First team, sat deep, couldn't keep the ball for more than 5 passes, and gave away a lot of fouls. Their press was poor and an out-of-form Hamilton team handled them easily.

Is this the way NZ Football wants our flagship U20 side to play? I doubt it - Danny Hay likes 4-3-3, possession, and pressing. When a new coach comes in for the top side the reserves will have to change formation and style again - how does this help our U17 and U20 teams when preparing for tournaments?

People are criticising the referee about the two sending offs last week, but what about the players and coaching staff that showed a lack of discipline to make the challenges in the first place, therefore giving the referee a decision to make? For a youth team they do seem to foul a lot. Happy to be corrected if I have the stats wrong.

The start of the first comment is interesting when they used a 3-4-3 (or 5-2-3) setup on Saturday.

Looked like 4-4-2 to me - see 7.53 on the following link:

LCB has come out of the line here, but otherwise gives a good sense of it.

Edit: Or to use your timestamp

The irony is they've been setting up in a 4-3-3 for most of the middle third of the season, after starting off using the first team's system. Presumably they wanted the extra width as an attacking outlet with Ben Old suspended on Saturday.

We have the power of replays and aren't in agreement whether it was DOGSO or not. Mind you, the only people who I've spoken to who seem to think they weren't DOGSO are keyboard warriors here and on Twitter.

Sending off the wrong player is obviously disappointing, however, from being there and being able to hear the referees at the time this happened because they diverted all their attention in the immediate aftermath of the foul toward whether it was a penalty or not. Obviously you expect better and this is a mistake the WHOLE referee team will wear, but this stuff can happen.

I've been at regional games where spectators have been abusing players and Nick himself and he has had the courage the completely stop the game and tell them to leave. It was fantastic to see. He's one of New Zealand's best and I don't think a case of mistaken identity and Phoenix fan angst changes that and I think the comments here from people who should know better are extremely disappointing.

What has been totally missed in the angst is how stupid the two challenges were.

Have watched them quite a few times this season and have been pretty disappointed each time I have watched. 

They seem to only know how to play one way, and that's at a flat out speed for the whole game, they seem to lack composure particularly in the middle of the park and the top third, you can put this down to inexperience but most of these guys have played a couple of seasons at this level now. I can only think it's down to the way that they are being coached.

They could also learn to cut out the whinging and falling over every time they get near an opposition player, a lot of the angst coming from the sideline particularly Steve Coleman seems negative to their development.

More worryingly for the Nix is this I can't identify a single player in that squad who could potentially be A-League level. Old is excellent on the ball but quite one dimensional. Mogg is an excellent defender and ball player but would be too small to be a CB @ A-League level and too slow to be a fullback. 

I was at the game and thought it was right live and I still believe that to be the case.  

contentious decisions happen all the time. This doesn’t even seem like the high end of the scale.
Not sure why sending off the wrong player couldn’t have been resolved at the time? Maybe happy for someone else to take the fall at the time?

Hopefully the kids can bounce back from their average form

There was a big discussion on field. All the players knew it was the wrong player, but referee has to back themselves or else risk getting the wool pulled over their eyes. Nick said to the Phoenix players at the time, "then tell me who it was" and Phoenix players kept their mouths shout. Felt bad for the player that did get sent, his own players had thrown him under the bus.

Ha. They’d probably just covered prisoners dilemma in school 

Hi El G, I only come here occasionally and have no idea who you are, but having seen your rather staunch reply - and seeing you are a forum moderator... I wonder if you have ever considered having a fellow moderator double check your posts for you? 

For the good of the code it might sometimes be good to get a second opinion on what is fair comment and what isn't. 

Hope this helps. 

If the foul is committed inside the box it is a penalty, if it happens outside it is not.

I thought this was common knowledge; bit surprised to hear a referee doesn't know this.

Referee Mr Waldrom. I will give him one thing, he wasn't really helped by either Lino. Surely 1 of them would have seen it was Old that should have been marched. I'll give them a hint - the BIG Number 10 on the back of the shirt was the give-away.

In a counter-attack, the AR is often best placed to decide where the foul took place - so when a foul is close to the area, discussion is a pragmatic choice to be clear about and 'sell' the decision.

Yep, I'd agree the AR should be well placed to make that call, especially since it was deepest Phoenix player, so he should have been at least in line, and would easily have been able to see it was 4 yards outside the box.

I guess those that think someone 20 yards out with his back to goal is imminently about to score could easily consider 4 yards to be "close to the area'.

Personally I expect better from officials in the top NZ league.

I think all I have learned is I'm glad your not an official in NZ's top league.