You've got to be kidding

Vanuatu's Port Vila Sharks that withdrew - AS Mont-Dore from New Caledonia participated in the same group as ACFC and Waitak, so sayeth Wikipedia

I've heard mutterings about PNG coming in too but I can't remember where, so you may be right on that one. Personally I'd like to see the OCL expand, but the problem is money, especially in this region.

Think everyone is exaggerating on the "Select XI" concept. My take is that it would be the NZFC side that won the O-League (assuming that happens) bolstered by maybe 4-5 quality players from other clubs that is all. You cant pick a team from scratch a week out from a tournament like this BUT you can bring a couple of key players into your 20 man squad who will beef up your chances. I think this is what they were getting at, not a complete new squad. This idea if managed well actually has some merit. Things like team spirit etc have to be considered also. Say if Auckland qualified thay might look at Totori, maybe Raf, Allan Pearce and JP, thats all. I am also sure a team like Auckland if they qualified would also recruit further offshore quality like the Korean they have, maybe 2 more like him. Put all that together and I think you would have a good competitive unit that could have given the Iranians a serious go. Just a thought.

Sounds like the same kind of team that Auckland City took last year.

That stills robs the NZFC winning team of any credibility, as it is NOT the same team that won the league. Every player who helps that team win deserves to play for it, not to be cut for a few ringers from other teams just to save face.

Interesting concept the 'NZFC XI' but one that surely cannot be serious. As the initial post said, this is a World 'CLUB' Championship not a lets see if we can cobble together the best squad from our league Championship! The idea of a playoff with the Phoenix is surely the way forward, as long as a share of the $ filters down to NZFC.

My NZFC team has already used 20 players this season. That will no doubt grow after the transfer window. The team at the end of the season will look nothing like the team that played in the first match ofthe season.

Arguing about what's the best way to draw players from the NZFC to compete at the WCC is like cows in an abattoir arguing about who should go first. It really doesn't matter, you're still going to get slaughtered.

Put the Phoenix in and hope they can put up a good show.

 

Not saying it's not difficult for a club to play in another country, just think it is nonsense to suggest the Kingz created some sort of precedent. They didn't, as examples all over the world show.

Who says a team from the NZFC is even going to qualify in future. If "our" teams can tinkle with the rules to suit themselves they may find themselves comming up against a full strength Fiji/Soloman Islands etc team to qualify.

That has already proven to be the case most outings. Just about everyone is on the game in oceania.

No, we are saying put the Phoenix in (after a play-off against the top NZFC team) because they are a better team than Auckland and Waitakere. Even if the Phoenix were to lose every game at the Club World Cup at least it is safe to assume that it wouldn't be as embarrassing as what happened at the last two CWC's.loyalgunner2007-12-21 12:20:05

What is it about the following statement from the President of FIFA that is so hard to understand?

"If you want to have a FIFA Club World Cup, we need to have professional clubs playing."

There is only one possible solution to this problem for Oceania! Send the Phoenix directly to the WCC. Everything else is a compromise and risks failing Herr Blatter's very specific criteria.

Be honest - if your kid's life depended on Oceania's results in the WCC over, say, the next five years would you send the Phoenix of the NZFC champs to represent you?

There are plenty of other ways to develop the NZFC as well.

So the phoenix finish bottom of the A-league and purely because they have fulltime players
they qualify for the O-league should they win that game is that what your saying?
win one game and get a reward that 8 other NZ clubs have to play at least 22 games for?
 

If the Phoenix roster that was at 8th of the table a few weeks ago played in the NZFC and played those 22 matches, the 'nix would be top of the NZFC table based on player and management ability.

However I do see your point of view and I agree that it doesn't seem fair to have the Phoenix qualify based on one game. You must, however, also take into account the quality of opposition. 21 matches in the A-League is a lot harder than the same amount of matches in the NZFC, and I seriously doubt ANY NZFC club could perform better than the Phoenix have. I must admit, however, that they do not have the chance to prove me wrong aside from any form of playoff against the Phoenix that may be proposed - be it one match, a series of matches, or a handicapped match (ie Phoenix ,must win by 3 goals to qualify).

What I'm also interested in is what suggestion you would make for NZ and/or Oceania sending a professional team acceptable by Sepp Blatter's standards, taking into account that the only professional team of a competitive standard is the Phoenix?

Brilliant. End of discussion. Get on with it. Nice work Terminator.

Yes  i do see the parallel that havin Pro clubs playing in a different countries league does not always work!!! but i do take your point about the welsh clubs in UEFA tournaments but they of course are never goin to qualify for CWC but i think its great that Clubs like Carmathen get to play in UEFA comps how would they feel if  they won the Welsh league and were then told they couldnt compete in UEFA comps just because they were'nt pro? But didnt Beskitas get beat 8-0 by the Scousers doesnt mean that they should'nt play in UEFA comps does it? Swansea Cardiff and Wrexham choose not play in the Welsh league and accept the consequences of that and dont try and have there cake and eat it like the Phoenix are trying to do. It sees the Welsh FA is a lot more representative of all of its member clubs that NZF is
But comparing countries doesnt really work because were not in Wales so what they do might not work here 

If I establish a "Professional Football Club" here in New Zealand, even though it takes no part in any league, will it be eligible for a play off spot in the O League?

There are two ways of responding to Sepp Blatter's statement and everyone seems to think that including the Phoenix is the only solution.

Why not declare the NZFC clubs "professional". Afterall the definition for an amatuer player is one who is paid no more than his training expenses. Clearly there are many players in the NZFC who are receiving more than just "training expenses" This makes those players "Professional".

It has been suggested in the past that the reasons for retaining the "Amatuer" facade was

1. To comply with funding requirments from Commmunity Trusts. Well as we have seen with Rugby these Trusts will fund professional organisations. As is the case with any grant money recieved now it is not to be used for player salaries.

2. To protect the criteria for which the Knight / Phoenix recieved FIFA dispensation - there is no professional league in NZ.

So lets make the NZFC "Professional" this would solve Sepp's issue. The reality then is we would be the equivalent of African or Carribean nations going to world cups in the 70's - not very good. But 40 years on they have proved their worth.

As for the Phoenix if they wanted to qualify for the O League they could play in a National Championship that qualifies for that competition. Alternatively if they wanted to stay in Australia they forfiet that right just as Swansea Cardiff and Berwick Rangers have done so.

But for a team to go straight in to the O League on the back of a play off is not quite right. Afterall what's to stop a "Winter Club" team putting their hand up for a shot at the big time.

The O League rules used (and I presume still do)allow the National Champion or National Cup winner to play in the O League. Should not the Chatham Cup holders have a chance at playing off?

This isn't meant to be anti - Phoenix, afterall they have done a quite outstanding job in such a short time on and off the field.

But the reality is they are playing in an Australian league domiciled here in NZ. The players are registered with the Australian Football Federation.

By comparison it is a bit like when Wimbledon were talking of moving to Dublin. They would still have been an English club - not Irish.

I would prefer to have NZ team represent me. A bit like Shane Howarth playing for Wales or Nathan Fein playing for the Kiwis. They were never truely eligible no matter how much you flex the rules.

Good suggestion would be good to see an add sum much need spice to the chatham cup!
By the way how strong would auckland city be without their Central players? they couldnt play for both club and then the O league surly?

Carmathen and the likes have never been prevented from playing in UEFA competitions. They have always had a spot open to them through the FAW  league championships and some of the clubs have performed very well. Ted Did you not read the post. Swansea do not CHOOSE to play England, they have NEVER played first team football in the FAW. They were formed to play professional football and have always played in the professional English league. They draw up to 20,000 a game to this day. There is NO professional football in Wales, the average FAW crowd is in the hundreds. WaLes has a population a little more than half of New Zealand and cannot support a fully professional game. Cripes they are struggling to support four professional rugby teams and have seen one professional rugby team fold (the Celtic Warriors), while one of their most famous clubs Llanelli is so far in debt it may not survive.

Swansea and the likes were given the chance to join Welsh league a few years ago but

obviously if we dont let the nix play in the o-league are chances at the CWC are gone.

[QUOTE=parkz15]obviously if we dont let the nix play in the o-league are chances at the CWC are gone. what you mean our chances? your an aussie club so qualify through asia!!!
Oh sorry you cant you messed that up as well
happyted2008-01-09 10:54:30

well if the nix dont play oceania can say goodbye to the cwc

Why is that Parkz? Tell us why in specific detail you do not believe an NZFC club can put together a competitive campaign at the CWC and why specifically in detail that the Phoenix will do that much better. Please be very specific with your points and enlighten us about what it takes to mount a credible challenge at this particular tournament. Two NZ clubs have had the experience now and surely they will be the better for it. If either of them has not learnt a hell of a lot they do not deserve to go back - agreed, however I dont think this is the case. I love the NZFC and would back whoever goes this year (if they qualify) to vastly improve on the previous two years efforts. With the right people leading the campaign - hell yes an NZFC side can be competitive in Japan. The key is having the right people leading the campaign and working on recruitment, an overseas pre-NZFC season buildup and a high level lead-in training schedule well in advance. Planning must commence in May straight after the O-League final and NZF must contribute to the campaign in a meaningful way (after all they take 10% of the prizemoney - where does that ever go btw? - nothing tangible is evident by NZFC franchises I would suggest)

It's not just that they possibly couldn't compete, it's that they wouldn't have the chance to compete as FIFA will strip Ocenia or participation rights in the CWC.

If the Phoenix are ruled eligible for the O-League, they along with one NZFC team (should the Phoenix succeed in qualifying) and teams from the other Oceanian nations will have the chance to make the CWC. If the Phoenix are excluded from the O-League, NOBODY will have the chance to make it to the CWC - not even Auckland City or Waitak, or any other team in Oceania.
We could talk about the strengths of the NZFC teams and the justification of their inclusion for as long as we want, it won't change the fact that NZFC teams and anyone else in Oceania - save for the Phoenix -  are not full professional squads, which rules Oceania ineligible.

Including the Phoenix is the only chance the NZFC squads have of making the Club World Cup. Simple as that.

On what basis do you say that RobbWatson? Oceania has a two year window to justify their further inclusion in the tournament, that is fact. Blatter has never mentioned the Phoenix specifically at all (and never will in this debate I am sure), he wouldnt probably even know who they are so to say if they are not included in the O-League Oceania will lose it's spot is grossly incorrect. That has never been mooted by Blatter and is just not fact. Here's hoping an NZFC side wins this years O-League and proves to Mr Blatter that a "professionally" run campaign by an NZFC side can result in a competitive performance at the CWC. I for one believe it can.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4322680a1823.html
Sepp Blatter himself said "If you want to have a Fifa Club World Cup, we need to have professional clubs playing,"

Blatter only wants professional clubs at the Club World Cup.
The only professional club in Oceania, for now, is the Phoenix.
It's unlikely that any professional league will expand to Auckland, Christchurch, Suva, or anywhere in Oceania within two years.

I'm not doubting that an NZFC team can win the O-League and I'm not denying that an NZFC team could be competitive at the CWC. Heck, I'd personally love to see Team Wellington make it, and can relate to any other fan of an NZFC team feeling the same way about their favourite. And you are correct in that Blatter has not mentioned then Phoenix and almost certainly never will. However he's laid down the criteria and the only way they can be met is either by the Phoenix qualifying, or by another professional club in Oceania, of which I do not believe there are any, qualifying. If not, Oceania is gone. Those are Blatter's words, not mine.

RobbWatson let's wait and see. No one in Oceania outside NZ wants the Phoenix involved in the O-League. NZFC sides are against this happening also. My bet is that OFC will bow to the view of its constituients and not allow the Nix in for at least two more years (if at all). OFC will also lobby FIFA for at least two more years of Oceania participation at the CWC under the status quo conditions (albeit significant improvement must be evidenced this year). I dont think anyone has mentioned Temarii at all in this debate and his influence on the FIFA exec, not to mention his strong personal friendship with Blatter. My guess is he has no sympathy towards the Nix at all. They are an Australian club in Oceania's eyes.

I'm pretty sure that the Tahitian league is Professional?
But they would perform a lot worse than any NZFC club would at CWC

id like like the nzfc teams to still play but i just dont think thell do well enough. The phoenix can do a better job

You are deluded. While the NZFC remains an amateur competition the sides will continue to struggle against professional sides for two reasons, quality of players and conditioning. One, they will never attract the quality of players to compete at that level because good players don't want to play part time. That is a fact. Two, they will never be as fit or as well prepared as a professional side playing full time. This has been evidenced by the performance of both Auckland City and Waitakere at the CWC's they have attended. FIFA want the CWC to be a serious tournament taken seriously by the participants and given credibility. Clearly the performance of the Oceania representatives haven't been up to that level (that is inarguable). Whether the Phoenix would be any better is another story. If the status quo continues Oceania will be goooone.

and don't think FIFA won't change their two year comment tomorrow. Remember Oceania's direct entry to the World Cup? That lasted all of 2 months until the confederations cup.

The Phoenix are too big for the NZFC.   They were specifically created to play in a popular, professional competition, have the average biggest crowds of any sport in NZ bar rugby and have been the biggest sot in the arm for football locally since 1982. Are you sure you aren't just a bit jealous you're beloved Auckland City aren't the biggest fish in this small pond any more?

JamesDean you didnt respond to the point outlining Temarii's position on the FIFA exec and his vision for Oceania's participant in the CWC. I think you may find he is not pro the Nix entering the O-League and I think you may also be surprised at the influence he has on FIFA's head decision-makers. Time will no doubt tell...I simply believe Temarii has a "pure" vision for the Oceania rep at the CWC...not a team playing in another country outside his confederation. How could the Nix realistically have an argument for inclusion in the O-League anyway unless they actually won the A-League - at least then they would actually be the champions of Australia.  They are a piece of the jig-saw that simply doesnt fit anywhere. The Aussies ensured that by not letting them enter the Asian Champions League should they win the A-League. That is the price they must pay to compete in the A-League unfortunately. Aussie have made their stance and I think OFC will follow a similar path. Deluded? Maybe not JamesDean...

If you re-read my post you will find I never argued for the Phoenix's inclusion inthe O League or the CWC. What I am saying is that NZFC/OFC sides will NEVER be up to the task of competing in the CWC and taking that into account there is no way the status quo can continue. Mr Blatter himself has said that, and I haven't heard a peep out of Mr Temarii suggesting otherwise so pure vision or not, something will have to change. One option is the Phoenix, that may not be a palatable solution. One option is Oceania drop out altogether, I think we'd both agree that's no good for anyone. But clearly, what is happening right now won't continue.james dean2008-01-10 15:44:18

Uli - I think you are the one who is deluded about Temarii's vision for Oceania.

I have - to the point of tedium I know, but bear with me please - frequently referred to the Welsh situation in regards to the Phoenix-O League situation.

This is the best entertainment here Jag.  Despite the image some portray, Daikiwi IS one of the Auckland City Brigade.

The flaw (as ever) is the FIFA transfer rules...
Hard News2008-01-11 14:20:41