NZFC sides are only allowed 3 foreign players (including aussies). That would pose a problem, as would players coming up and down from the first team with players' registrations held by two different competitions? Squad numbers are limited so once a player had been named on an NZFC team card he would "count" as a squad member for the season, regardless of if he was to then play the remainder of the year for the first team. Would almost need a separate full reserve squad made up of Kiwis and would they be good enough to win the comp?
This is the best entertainment here Jag. Despite the image
some portray, Daikiwi IS one of the Auckland City Brigade.
He'll be getting excommunicated if he keeps coming up with reasoned
arguments like that one!Apparently I'm apathetic, but I couldn't care less.
"Being a Partick Thistle fan sets you apart. It means youre a free thinker. It also means your team has no money." Tim Luckhurst, The Independent, 4th December 2003
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This is the best entertainment here Jag. Despite the image
some portray, Daikiwi IS one of the Auckland City Brigade.
He'll be getting excommunicated if he keeps coming up with reasoned
arguments like that one!I agree, Daikiwi is an absolute disgrace to ACFC with his
intelligent, objective, open-minded arguments. Someone buy that man
a set of blinkers immediately!
By the way Uli Stieleke, am I going to get a response to my
last post questioning your assessment of Temarii's (and Oceania's)
position on the Phoenix entering the O-League? You are quick to
scold others for not responding to your points and I would love to
hear what you think. Maybe you are having problems getting the
ACFC spin machine to start?
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I simply believe OFC's rep in Japan this year will be the O-League
winner decided in early May. The Phoenix will not feature in this
equation at all. Let's all just wait and see, your gues is as good
as mine MrTerminator.
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I simply believe OFC's rep in Japan this year will be the O-League
winner decided in early May. The Phoenix will not feature in this
equation at all. Let's all just wait and see, your gues is as good
as mine MrTerminator.
OK, so now we are only talking about who will represent the
O-League in Japan this year? Fair enough, you are probably right
that the Phoenix won't feature given that the 2007-08 O-League has
already started! The article I directed you to on Oceania's website
regarding the participation of the Phoenix states that "any change
wouldn't come into force until the 2008-09 O-League" so it doesn't
exactly take a genius to work that one out.
You are making a bit of a back-track, however, from your
previous statements that:
"My bet is that OFC will bow to the view of its constituients
and not allow the Nix in for at least two more years (if at all).
OFC will also lobby FIFA for at least two more years of
Oceania participation at the CWC under the status quo conditions"
and
"I simply believe Temarii has a "pure" vision for the Oceania
rep at the CWC...not a team playing in another country outside his
confederation".
Tai Nicholas' statements quoted in the Herald and posted on
Oceania's own website contradict these statements, correct? As
I pointed out unless Mr Nicholas has since received a dressing down
from Mr Temarii and the Herald report is wrong then Oceania has
already handed over a decision about the participation of the
Phoenix in the O-League to NZF. Only timing will prevent them from
competing in the 2007-08 O-League (because it's already
started) although there would still be an option to have them
play-off against the O-League winners for a place at the 2008
CWC.
More realistically, I think we will see the Phoenix entered
into the 2008-09 O-League along with the NZFC champions (and the
horrendous scheduling implications that creates). In the meantime,
Oceania and NZF will just have to do their best to keep FIFA at bay
during the 2008 CWC with promises that the following year will be
better (assuming that the Phoenix make it through or whoever beats
them are vastly improved).
Personally, I still think that the Phoenix should be sent
directly to the CWC by Oceania as the only team from Oceania that
can:
a) meet Blatter's "professional teams only" criteria and
b) put up a decent show (and you can rattle on all you like
about an NZFC side putting together a "professional"campaign. If I
had to bet my kid's life on whether the Phoenix or the NZFC champs
would do a better job at the CWC over the long-run I'd choose the
Phoenix every time).
But, if we have to play politics and make it palatable for all
the whingers then I suppose the Phoenix in the O-League is a fair
compromise. By the way, this still gives the NZFC teams plenty to
play for - a place in the O-league and some big games against the
Phoenix - and should create way more interest in both the O-League
and the NZFC here in NZ. I would also like to see the formula for
dividing up any CWC prize money completely revamped to spread the
proceeds much more evenly across the NZFC franchises. As you have
rightly pointed out the whole NZFC needs more (financial) support
and we need to get rid of the dog-eat-dog, winner-takes-all
mentality. The Phoenix shouldn't need to take a huge slice of the
money due to the other commercial opportunities participation in
the O-League and CWC would open up to them (and they are much
better placed to leverage those opportunites than an NZFC franchise
is).
As such a self-professed fan of the NZFC and O-League why
wouldn't you be drooling over this prospect?
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I agree with Terminator. Phoenix versus the O league winner for CWC
qualification this year ie 2008 is the only realistic option for
Oceania given Blatter's very clear statements. The only issue then
to argue about is how the prize money gets divied up. At the moment
on the current formula Nix would get one third, NZF one third and
the 8 NZFC clubs share the other third (which comes down to diddly
squat). If the Nix statements about helping grass
roots soccer in nz are to be believed though, they should in
theory be happy to back this by relinquishing some of their
prize money back to NZF and the NZFC in some combination. That
way we and Blatter are happy, the only problem being, what happens
if the Nix get wiped out in their first game of the CWC and Blatter
gets shirty again? Hate to think that would happen but given the
Nix form and the quality of the opposition it could be a
reality (and correct me if I'm wrong but for the last CWC the A
League winner Melbourne didn't even qualify through their Asian
group). Just a thought.
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Phoenix vs OFC Winner seems a little too easy and kinda takes away
any validity. I'd rather see the Phoenix qualify through the
O-League as one of NZ's representatives, along with the NZFC
champion, so at least we can say "Hey, we beat all these other
teams". Plus it means more football to watch and could provide
benefits to the other Oceanian teams as well. Even if it is just a
formality.
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The other thing I think we in New Zealand do not seem to understand
is that in Europe clubs can be involved in any number of
competitions. If you think that playing a different team in one
competition, but having it under the same umbrella, just look at
the League Cup. Arsenal, for one, play their reserve team in the
League Cup although officially it is the Arsenal senior side. Other
teams of course play their reserves, or a mixture of reserves and
first team in the early rounds.
Swansea, Cardiff and Wrexham play in their
respective Football League championships, the League Cup, the
FA Cup, and in the case of Swansea and Wrexham, the Football League
Trophy as well. They also play in the FAW Premier Cup (which is
contested by the top 10 FAW clubs and the Welsh clubs which play in
the English pyramid).
Again this is an example of clubs crossing intenational
boundaries to play in various domestic competitions.
Of course there are the various UEFA competitions on top of
that, which of course the top Welsh clubs are barred from. If they
were involved in those that means they could be involved in no less
than SIX competitions in a single year.
The beauty of all this of course is that fans always have
something to look forward to playing in, and as we know clubs can
raise their game for one off cup competitions. Swansea, who are run
away leaders of League One, have drawn three non-league clubs in
the FA Cup so far, and have been taken to replays on every
occasion.
Again this is just a different mentality, instead of looking
at restricting clubs playing games, we should be celebrating each
occasion they have to test themselves against other opposition,
whether they are in the same "league" or not.
Football is one of the few sports where this is possible, and
often leads to some of the best contests.
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http://www.nzherald.co.nz/category/story.cfm?c_id=86&objectid=10486576
Phoenix poised for O-League early entry
To be honest, a level playing field is a bit of a lie because the island nations club competitions all have a different foreign player policies than the NZFC club competition, but you don't heard a peek from them. I personally don't mind the three team final series.
A home-away series with the two pool winners does sounds very interesting.
We really need like three soild NZ teams that are able to foot it in the A-league. Although I hope for a more stronger NZFC league with more professional money. . . . Is there more Terrys' out there?
AllWhitebelievr2008-01-13 16:43:22
Phoenix poised for O-League early entry
It's almost certain the Wellington Phoenix
will join the O-League, possibly as early as this season.
Oceania has been given two years by Fifa president Sepp Blatter to improve the quality of their performances at the Club World Cup or face expulsion from the lucrative competition.
New Zealand Football are keen for the Phoenix to be involved, given they are the only professional outfit in the confederation.
The Phoenix have so far been excluded from the O-League because they play in the A-League, which comes under the control of Asia. But the club has been ruled ineligible to compete in the Asian Champions League because it is located in an Ocea-nia nation.
It had previously been thought the Phoenix would not be included in the O-League until 2008-09 because this season's competition was already well advanced.
But it's understood moves are afoot to include them in the final stages of the current competition as a way of proving to Fifa that Oceania are taking Blatter's warning seriously.
One way of accommodating the Phoenix would be to play a three-team final series. They would join the winners of the two pools and all three would play each other home and away.
Although Wellington would jump at the chance, it would mean playing at the end of April, during their off-season, and would have an influence on player recruitment.
The idea would gain the support of NZF but will not go down well with NZFC clubs, who don't believe it would be a level playing field and want to protect their chance of claiming the minimum US$500,000 for appearing at the Club World Cup.
The decision ultimately rests with Oceania, who are not known for their decisiveness, but they have already said they are not opposed to the Phoenix being involved in future O-Leagues.
A decision could be made by the end of the month, when Oceania president Reynald Temarii is scheduled to visit New Zealand.
NZF chief executive Graham Seatter said he had heard of the suggestion but that he had "no knowledge that it was definitely going to happen". Oceania general secretary Tai Nicholas could not be reached for comment.
The All Whites will play their 'home' World Cup qualifier against Fiji in Apia, Samoa, on June 23. They had been due to meet Fiji in the opening round of the World Cup in Auckland in October but Fifa ruled the match should be postponed after the New Zealand Government denied goalkeeper Simione Tamanisau an entry visa. The All Whites are well in command of Oceania qualification after three wins from three games.
Oceania has been given two years by Fifa president Sepp Blatter to improve the quality of their performances at the Club World Cup or face expulsion from the lucrative competition.
New Zealand Football are keen for the Phoenix to be involved, given they are the only professional outfit in the confederation.
The Phoenix have so far been excluded from the O-League because they play in the A-League, which comes under the control of Asia. But the club has been ruled ineligible to compete in the Asian Champions League because it is located in an Ocea-nia nation.
It had previously been thought the Phoenix would not be included in the O-League until 2008-09 because this season's competition was already well advanced.
But it's understood moves are afoot to include them in the final stages of the current competition as a way of proving to Fifa that Oceania are taking Blatter's warning seriously.
One way of accommodating the Phoenix would be to play a three-team final series. They would join the winners of the two pools and all three would play each other home and away.
Although Wellington would jump at the chance, it would mean playing at the end of April, during their off-season, and would have an influence on player recruitment.
The idea would gain the support of NZF but will not go down well with NZFC clubs, who don't believe it would be a level playing field and want to protect their chance of claiming the minimum US$500,000 for appearing at the Club World Cup.
The decision ultimately rests with Oceania, who are not known for their decisiveness, but they have already said they are not opposed to the Phoenix being involved in future O-Leagues.
A decision could be made by the end of the month, when Oceania president Reynald Temarii is scheduled to visit New Zealand.
NZF chief executive Graham Seatter said he had heard of the suggestion but that he had "no knowledge that it was definitely going to happen". Oceania general secretary Tai Nicholas could not be reached for comment.
The All Whites will play their 'home' World Cup qualifier against Fiji in Apia, Samoa, on June 23. They had been due to meet Fiji in the opening round of the World Cup in Auckland in October but Fifa ruled the match should be postponed after the New Zealand Government denied goalkeeper Simione Tamanisau an entry visa. The All Whites are well in command of Oceania qualification after three wins from three games.
To be honest, a level playing field is a bit of a lie because the island nations club competitions all have a different foreign player policies than the NZFC club competition, but you don't heard a peek from them. I personally don't mind the three team final series.
A home-away series with the two pool winners does sounds very interesting.
We really need like three soild NZ teams that are able to foot it in the A-league. Although I hope for a more stronger NZFC league with more professional money. . . . Is there more Terrys' out there?
AllWhitebelievr2008-01-13 16:43:22
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Can Nix supporters hand on heart, honestly say their side deserves a crack at the CWC (via an O-League playoff series) in their first season of existance, if they finish last, which appears likely, in the A-League. This post is not aimed to engeander a tirade of aggressiveness from loyal Nix supporters, it is merely an honest question?
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I for one would welcome a match up. Regardless where we all believe
the relative strengths or weaknesses of the Phoenix it would be
great to see if they are that much better than a Waitakere or
Auckland City.
What would occur if the NZFC team rolled the Phoenix - imagine the hue and cry but at least we would see the answer to all this.
BTW I dont believe that a team who comes last in their competition should get the right to any advantages - Champions football is what it is called regardless where the champion comes from. Last is not the name of the competition.
What would occur if the NZFC team rolled the Phoenix - imagine the hue and cry but at least we would see the answer to all this.
BTW I dont believe that a team who comes last in their competition should get the right to any advantages - Champions football is what it is called regardless where the champion comes from. Last is not the name of the competition.
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Certainly agree that if we finish last we don't deserve anything in the way of a spot in the CWC, perhaps if we made it into the final 4, then we could seriously be asking questions.
Queenslander 3x a year.
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Yeah, but if they were to win the O League they would qualify as O
League champions. Their A League result then is irrelevant.
Didn't Liverpool win the Champions League after being fourth
in the EPL.
Teams qualify for the CWC by winning their regional
league.
They can qualify for that in a number of ways. The point of
the exercise at the moment is that the O League finds a team
that fulfils Blatters and FIFA's requirements.
The Phoenix inclusion is purely to keep the CWC spot open.
That throws significant funds into the NZFC which has no
sponsorship and is about as attractive to both the media and the
commercial sector as a bucket of cold sick.
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It's not totally irrelevant though, is it. Consider the raised
eyebrows from the other A League clubs when bottom-placed Phoenix
need only beat a bunch of Pacific part timers to make the CWC,
while the Australian entrants in the Asian Champions League must
compete against extremely tough professional Asian opponents for
the same honour.
Not that I care too much what the Aussies say but I dislike
seeing the Phoenix compartmentalised as a 'special case' - a square
peg forced into a round hole. Selfishly, my priorities are (a)
what's best for the Phoenix, and (b) what's best for NZ football as
a whole. To be quite honest I don't believe that a contrived
Phoenix participation in the O League (which, I am afraid to
say, is a 2nd class competition compared to those in all the
other regions) significantly advances the cause of either in
the long run.
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How is it contrived.
The Phoenix are prevented from playing in the Asian Champions
League.
The O League is a different competition. Provided they have to
qualify for the O League by playing off for their spot, there is no
drama.
If anything it is the Australian participation in the
Asian League that is contrived. They are an Oceania team. They left
to join Asia because they felt they were too big for Oceania.
Remember, they qualified for the first CWC through Oceania.
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Can Nix supporters hand on heart, honestly say their side deserves a crack at the CWC (via an O-League playoff series) in their first season of existance, if they finish last, which appears likely, in the A-League. This post is not aimed to engeander a tirade of aggressiveness from loyal Nix supporters, it is merely an honest question?
But that misses the point. Would you preferthe phoenix
involvement if it meant Oceania still got a CWC place orwould you
rather they stayed out and in 2 years FIFA waves goodbye.
Because that is the real question.
If I was a neutral I would question why Oceania even gets to
participate (apart from some arguments about everyone hving a
crack) the reality is that our club football is so far behind every
other confederations its all a bit pointless.
james dean2008-01-15 11:35:48
Normo's coming home
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If it was pointless JamesDean you may as well tell 90% of the countries that enter the World Cup not to bother then. What is wrong with being the "poor cousin" in the FIFA family at this point in time. Realistically Oceania is 20 years away from being truely competitive on the World Stage. Developmental progress is being made though - are the Island nations easybeats like they used to be for NZ now? Africa was in a similar situation once upon a time, was is Zaire who were pumped 9-0 in the 70's at a World Cup - look how that continent has progressed since then. Dont write off OFC so blatantly or so quickly JamesDean. I dont believe FIFA will.
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Can Nix supporters hand on heart, honestly say their side deserves a crack at the CWC (via an O-League playoff series) in their first season of existance, if they finish last, which appears likely, in the A-League. This post is not aimed to engeander a tirade of aggressiveness from loyal Nix supporters, it is merely an honest question?
Whether or not the Phoenix "deserve" a crack is irrelevant if
you believe (as I do) that this debate is about finding a pragmatic
solution to a problem - which is the threat to Oceania's continuing
participation in the CWC.
I am as surprised as anyone by the latest report in the
Herald stating that Phoenix entry could be fast-tracked
through a play-off against the O-League group winners but pleased
that someone out there seems to be stealing my ideas! (see my
previous post suggesting a play-off against this season's O-League
winners as a possibility). I note that the Herald article is very
speculative, however, and light on corroborating evidence (apart
from Seatter claiming he didn't know about it).
Even so, I do believe the Phoenix fully "deserve" a crack at
the O-League (but you knew that already). The reference to
their current last placing in the A-League is mis-leading for
two reasons:
a) The A-League is of a significantly higher standard that our
own NZFC and the O-League. While one-off upsets are always possible
over the long run A-League sides would consistently beat sides from
either of those two competitions.
b) This year's A-League has been the most competitive yet. The
spread between top and bottom with one round to go is just 11
points. In 2006-07 it was 26 points and in 2005-06 it was a massive
37 points (although admittedly this was largely to do with the
abject performance of the NZ Knights). This year's minor
premiership winner will have a maximum of 34 points. In 2006-07 it
was 45 points and in 2006-06 it was 43 points. This is in large
part due to the performance of the Phoenix who have taken points
off every team in the league this season except Central
Coast.
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How can a team that finishes last in a competition enter a "Champions League" competition? What are the remaining Australian teams that finish above them likely to think? A Phoenix team that finishes last in their comp has the ability to lure players from them on the basis these players will be "exposed" to high profile clubs on the world stage via the CWC should they qualify via Oceania. If the Phoenix made the top 2 they could at least have some form of an argument. Comparing NZFC teams and A-League teams is also irrelevant. European teams are stronger than CONCACAF sides, we all know that. The Phoenix's problems lie with Australian Football authorities. They should be demanding a presence in Asian CWC qualifying if they make the top 2 in the A-League. They simply play in an Aussie comp which is part of Asia and they must lobby for inclusion via that route.
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How can a team that finishes last in a competition enter a
"Champions League" competition?[/QUOTE]
In exactly the same way that NZ can put two teams into the
O-League and some countries in Europe put as many as four
entrants into the UEFA Champions League. If the Phoenix beat the
O-League champs (or the group winners) then they will be the
"champions" of Oceania, if it makes you feel better.
Competitions such as the CWC and the UEFA Champions League
have been created by their governing authorities (FIFA and UEFA
respectively) primarily for commercial reasons - to generate
revenue through broadcast rights and sponsorship.
The UEFA Champions League is actually the classic case of
this. At the elite or professional level in football no club has a
moral right to participate. That's why the champions of Andorra
slug it out in the qualifying rounds while the first and second
placed teams in England go straight to the group stages.
As FIFA has made clear they want the CWC to be as appealing to
spectators, television audiences and commercial partners as
possible and they don't consider amateur sides to be part of that
formula.
What are the remaining Australian teams that finish above them
likely to think? A Phoenix team that finishes last in their comp
has the ability to lure players from them on the basis these
players will be "exposed" to high profile clubs on the world stage
via the CWC should they qualify via Oceania. If the Phoenix made
the top 2 they could at least have some form of an argument.
The Australian teams will probably be thinking:
a) We need a team from New Zealand in the A-League for
commercial reasons and the Phoenix have done a good job this
season. We have all experienced increased attendances and TV
ratings.
b) One of the conditions we imposed on the participation of a
NZ team in the league is that they won't be able to qualify
for the ACL. The situation is confused because of NZ's membership
of Oceania so even if we (the clubs and FFA) allowed it then it may
get blocked at Asian Federation level anyway.
c) As such, we can hardly complain if the Phoenix find a route
to the CWC through Oceania which by our own definition is
their "home" federation and which we chose to leave as a national
association.
d) There are all sorts of factors that affect the
competitiveness of A-League clubs to some extent or another. These
include population base, local government support, access to
private equity, sponsorship revenues etc. If participation in the
O-League gives the Phoenix some advantages, including player
recruitment, then so be it. Player recruitment is moderated by the
salary cap anyway, so benefits to the Phoenix would be
limited.
[QUOTE=Uli Stieleke]Comparing NZFC teams and A-League teams is
also irrelevant. European teams are stronger than CONCACAF sides,
we all know that. The Phoenix's problems lie with Australian
Football authorities. They should be demanding a presence in Asian
CWC qualifying if they make the top 2 in the A-League. They simply
play in an Aussie comp which is part of Asia and they must lobby
for inclusion via that route.
It was you who asked whether a side which finished last in the
A-League "deserved" a crack at the CWC. I pointed out that as the
Phoenix are the only team in Oceania in the A-League and the
A-League is a higher standard than either the NZFC or the O-League
then, yes, they do deserve a crack.
The Phoenix are an Oceania club. Their home ground and
registered office are in New Zealand. They are a limited liability
company on the NZ Companies Register. They hold a sub-license
to compete in the A-League which was granted to them by NZF (a
member association of Oceania) who in turn hold a license granted
by the FFA. The fact that they play in the A-League is the
exception not the rule. It is highly unlikely anyone will agree to
them competing in the ACL until NZF joins the Asian
Federation.
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I would think everyone but themselves and NZF would actually "deem"
them to be an Australian club. Just an Aussie franchise playing in
another city in the A-League. The legal registration etc is just
window dressing, look at the substance over the form. The Aussies
have duped NZF again, taken their commercial cream and slammed the
door on Nix CWC aspirations. They are a jigsaw piece that doesnt
fit as far as the CWC picture goes.
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I would think everyone but themselves and NZF would actually "deem"
them to be an Australian club.
That's a ridiculous claim.
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How can a team that finishes last in a competition enter a "Champions League" competition? What are the remaining Australian teams that finish above them likely to think? A Phoenix team that finishes last in their comp has the ability to lure players from them on the basis these players will be "exposed" to high profile clubs on the world stage via the CWC should they qualify via Oceania. If the Phoenix made the top 2 they could at least have some form of an argument. Comparing NZFC teams and A-League teams is also irrelevant. European teams are stronger than CONCACAF sides, we all know that. The Phoenix's problems lie with Australian Football authorities. They should be demanding a presence in Asian CWC qualifying if they make the top 2 in the A-League. They simply play in an Aussie comp which is part of Asia and they must lobby for inclusion via that route.
I agree with you, Uli. Poor timing sees the Phoenix being
trumpeted as the quickfix solution for a problem that really
shouldn't concern them. In my opinion Phoenix involvement in the O
League represents a step backward for the development of the club
(quite apart from whether it's 'fair' to NZFC clubs or not) - sort
of like being the big kids sent over to the toddlers
pool.
All the energy and focus of the club should go into achieving
maximum success in the A League, securing a top 2 spot (or 3 or 4,
since there seems a good chance that more A League teams
will win qualification to the ACL within the next few years) and
using this success as leverage to negotiate qualification to the
CWC through Asia. A much tougher prospect, requiring ambition
and
vision, but ultimately one that would reap its own rewards. I
personally cannot drum up any enthusiasm for an O League campaign
against part time opposition which the Phoenix are expected to
beat, yet which always offers the potential for disaster and
humiliation. And all for what? Perhaps just a single game at the
CWC and a pot of gold to be shared around a lot of outstretched
hands. For a brand new club with high hopes this is not the way to
go.
As for FIFA, it's hard to know what they have in mind with
this mysterious threat of the axe. They must be fully aware that
there is no possible way the amateur Oceania clubs can become
miraculously competitive at world level within two years. Equally
they would surely realise that to allow more or less direct
qualification of the ONLY professional club in a given world region
to the CWC would risk undermining the status of this tournament in
many eyes.
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I would think everyone but themselves and NZF would actually "deem"
them to be an Australian club. Just an Aussie franchise playing in
another city in the A-League. The legal registration etc is just
window dressing, look at the substance over the form. The Aussies
have duped NZF again, taken their commercial cream and slammed the
door on Nix CWC aspirations. They are a jigsaw piece that doesnt
fit as far as the CWC picture goes.
Good morning Uli,
I must admit I am very disappointed as you have argued
your case well up to this point. For someone who has previously
lectured others on not providing specific evidence to back up their
opinions, however, your last post is sub-standard. It contains
several statements which are pure conjecture, based solely on your
own opinions and your barely disguised agenda that ACFC have some
god-given right to be the only club in NZ to suckle at the CWC
teat. The fact that FIFA intends to cut off the supply does not
concern you - you would rather that Oceania's participation in
the CWC dies (with the subsequant negative impacts on the game in
New Zealand and Oceania) as long as you can keep your noble
principles intact.
Your ridiculous statement about "substance over form" is
actually insulting to the 2,500 season ticket holders of the
Phoenix and the 11,500 average home crowds. Supporters are the
substance of any club and I'm sure you would say the same about
ACFC. The Phoenix are a NZ club whether you look at the
substance or the form and I think that I've provided enough
evidence so far to make that statement. If Fiji's Ba were invited
to compete in the NZFC as a way of helping football in Fiji develop
and creating more interest in the NZFC would they suddenly cease to
be a Fijian club? If you have evidence that the Phoenix are an
Aussie club (and by the same logic so were the Knights and the
Kingz - were you aware of this?) please provide it.
I suspect that at this point in the debate your only
course of action is to try and be provocative anyway. So well
done, you've succeeded, but it's a little lazy don't you
think?
As for Stop Out I think you need to go back and read more of
this thread. A significant number of contributors (including
me) would agree that the ultimate resolution of this debate is for
Oceania to be absorbed into the Asia Federation in some form. That
is clearly not an option in the short term,
however, to hold off the clear and immediate threat to
Oceania's particpation in the CWC. The participation of the Phoenix
in the O-League is an option and that's what this discussion is
about.
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If Oceania became part of Asia NZ would disappear off the world
football stage for at least 20 years, dont even bother considering
the financial constraints of competing in that region. What is
actually wrong with Oceania staying like it is and developing over
time (albeit with FIFA assistance)? Surely a far better prospect
for NZ...
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If Oceania became part of Asia NZ would disappear off the world
football stage for at least 20 years, dont even bother considering
the financial constraints of competing in that region. What is
actually wrong with Oceania staying like it is and developing over
time (albeit with FIFA assistance)? Surely a far better prospect
for NZ...
Nonsense. Competing in Asia is a cashcow. Why do you think
Australia was so desperate to become involved. The A League clubs
are part of the lucrative Asian Champions League which brings in
huge crowds and TV revenues. The Socceroos recently played in the
Asian Nations Cup, again to big crowds and TV audiences. They are
laughing all the way to the bank - especially, since Asia is an
area of huge growth, both financially and in terms of football
interest.
If Oceania were to become part of Asia,New Zealand teams would
be able to cash in on these competitions. It is not like paying
your way to the Islands with chook raffles, it is
about TV revenues and shared gates.
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...and yet why are Aussie clubs making big losses?
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...and yet why are Aussie clubs making big losses?
I would have thought that was a question for which there is no
one easy answer. Why are UK clubs making big losses?
Apparently I'm apathetic, but I couldn't care less.
"Being a Partick Thistle fan sets you apart. It means youre a free thinker. It also means your team has no money." Tim Luckhurst, The Independent, 4th December 2003
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...a club does not have to make a loss at all if it has a sound
business plan. It must prepare a realistic budget and find revenue
streams to match. Easier said than done yes but impossible, far
from it.
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If Oceania became part of Asia NZ would disappear off the world
football stage for at least 20 years, dont even bother considering
the financial constraints of competing in that region. What is
actually wrong with Oceania staying like it is and developing over
time (albeit with FIFA assistance)? Surely a far better prospect
for NZ...
Once again you just toss out a statement without bothering to
back it up. "Disappear off the world football stage for 20 years"?
For chrissake's man, that's just pure hyperbole, have some
dignity.
You now also seem to be cherry-picking those parts of the
debate where you think you can get some traction. Never mind, I
will address your point anyway.
The only reason Oceania exists as a Federation is because
Australia and New Zealand were declined membership of Asia in 1964
(source: http://www.oceaniafootball.com ). But for that
decision we would already be part of the Asia Federation and this
whole debate would be redundant. It's important to note that
historically the driver for the Oceania Federation being created
was as a reaction to Australia and New Zealand failing to gain
membership of Asia, not because there was felt to be a strong
stand-alone case for an Oceania Federation which would
enhance development of the Pacific Island nations etc.
With Australia's recent exit Oceania is now by far the
smallest FIFA Federation both in terms of the number of member
nations, population base, number of registered players etc. There
is at least a prima face case to argue that the development of the
Oceania nations is actually constrained by the size of the
federation rather than enhanced (it's speculation either way, I'm
simply noting that there is clearly room for debate on whether the
existence of Oceania actually helps or hinders the
development of its member nations).
If the current Oceania nations were part of Asia their status
would not be dissimilar to that of the smaller nations in
federations like Europe (Andorra, Luxembourg, Faroe Islands etc)
and CONCACAF (all the Carribean Islands). There is no push from any
of these nations to break away from their current federations in
order to create new or better opportunities for themselves. That
suggests that a model of relatively large federations with a broad
spread of member nations seems to work well for all. The little
guys get to play with the big guys, occasionally getting through to
a major tournament (across the age grades at either Federation
or World Cup level) and everyone benefits from the revenues
generated. Hardly what you would call "disappearing off the world
stage".
You can respond to the other points I raised this morning
about your unfounded assertion that the Phoenix are an "Aussie
club" when you feel like it.
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...a club does not have to make a loss at all if it has a sound
business plan. It must prepare a realistic budget and find revenue
streams to match. Easier said than done yes but impossible, far
from it.
You seem to be contradicting yourself. So you agree that any
Aussie clubs making losses are not doing so solely because they are
members of the Asia Federation (which is what you implied with your
question in response to Daikiwi). If they took your advice above
they should have no problem finding the money to compete in Asia so
what exactly is your point?
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If the revenue streams are so great in Asia why are the clubs making huge losses. On a relative scale I would suggest a few of the NZFC teams would be actually profitable enterprises.
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If the revenue streams are so great in Asia why are the clubs making huge losses. On a relative scale I would suggest a few of the NZFC teams would be actually profitable enterprises.
As Jag pointed out it could be for any number of reasons not
simply because of what you seem to be implying - that there is no
revenue to be made in Asia.
I presume when you say "Aussie clubs" you mean A-League
clubs? What is the relevance of your question anyway? The
costs and revenues of a CWC campaign (ie. the ACL for those
A-League clubs that qualify) are only one part of an A-League
club's total business and finances. To propose that some "Aussie
clubs" making losses is evidence that Oceania clubs shouldn't "even
bother considering the financial constraints of competing in that
region" is silly.
If Oceania was merged into Asia the other clubs in Oceania
would be still be trying to fund a CWC campaign (if they qualified)
much as they do now. For all you know they may end up competing in
an ACL sub-league, much like the current O-League exceptunder the
jurisdiction of Asia, with the winners going through to the main
ACL draw. The costs for most Oceania teams could be exactly the
same or even less. The fact is neither you nor I know.
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???? How can the average club in the Islands ever hope to
raise the finances to travel in a ACL competition on a
home-and-away basis to places like Saudi, Iran, Japan etc. Let
alone the Islands it is cost prohibitive for all clubs in NZ
including the Nix. In the pro game you fund all your own
travel...long term sustainablity for clubs in this part of the
world is to remain in the OFC and strengthen our confederation. The
Nix are more than welcome to lobby their way into the ACL and reap
the " financial benefits" of that strategic decision.
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???? How can the average club in the Islands ever hope to
raise the finances to travel in a ACL competition on a
home-and-away basis to places like Saudi, Iran, Japan etc. Let
alone the Islands it is cost prohibitive for all clubs in NZ
including the Nix. In the pro game you fund all your own
travel...long term sustainablity for clubs in this part of the
world is to remain in the OFC and strengthen our confederation. The
Nix are more than welcome to lobby their way into the ACL and reap
the " financial benefits" of that strategic decision.
Why are you suddenly worried about team in the islands? first
you worried about NZ, then the clubs in OZ making a loss? Who are
you trying to support here?
Its kinda simple, if all the current Oceania teams were
involved in Asia, the moey from the gates is shared, funding
flights to various places surely can't be that expesive, think of
all the poorer nations in other federations they seem to manage
it!
At the moment Oceania is dominated by one "big" team, playing
a bunch of minnows, its not really helping anyone! If we had Asian
teams travelling here on a regular basis the money and attention on
football would be huge.
Queenslander 3x a year.
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???? How can the average club in the Islands ever hope to
raise the finances to travel in a ACL competition on a
home-and-away basis to places like Saudi, Iran, Japan etc. Let
alone the Islands it is cost prohibitive for all clubs in NZ
including the Nix. In the pro game you fund all your own
travel...long term sustainablity for clubs in this part of the
world is to remain in the OFC and strengthen our confederation. The
Nix are more than welcome to lobby their way into the ACL and reap
the " financial benefits" of that strategic decision.
Did you read my post? I suggested an Asian sub-league much
like the current O-League only under the jurisdiction of Asia.
There are multiple ways Asia could be carved up and revenue shared
to ensure that an Oceania club that worked its way through
qualifying could compete in the main draw.
To argue that Oceania clubs could not survive in the Asian
Federation is stupid when clubs from small nations all around the
world are managing it within their own Federations. Exactly how
many examples do you need?
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Take a good look at the geographical situation of those minor countries then compare it Oceanias isolation. Distance - Travel - Cost. As for the Prof I think you may well find airfares, accomadation and meals to the Asian continent for a touring party of up to 25 players and officials is exorbitant to say the very least. Read huge.
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Perhaps this will explain why the Aussies want in to the Asian
Champions League and why it is, as I said earlier, a cash cow. This
article is from the Courier Mail a week ago
QUEENSLAND Roar will be gunning for entry into the lucrative
Asian Champions League when it takes on top-two rival Sydney FC at
Suncorp Stadium on Sunday.
The Roar's main objective is to secure a top-two finish to the A-League home-and-away season and a strong chance of hosting the grand final, but the minor premiership also brings with it the guaranteed windfall of Asian Champions League qualification.
Roar chairman John Ribot said qualifying for the Champions League would provide a monumental marketing and financial opportunity for the club.
"It takes our brand to another stratosphere," he said. "This is what our club has been all about."
Roar chief executive Lawrence Oudendyk said a new financial model due to come into place in 2009 would ensure qualification for the Champions League was far more profitable than it had previously been for Australian clubs.
Teams currently pay for their own transport and accommodation, an expense which eats into profits, but Oudendyk said that from next year those costs would be covered by the Asian Football Federation.
Qualification for the Champions League ensures each side a minimum of six games, three of them at home.
Clubs receive a share of the lucrative broadcast rights and all the gate takings from home games.
The Roar hopes to have a season record 30,000 at Sunday's game against Sydney and Oudendyk believes the club could attract similar sized crowds to Asian Champions League games. "That's where the real financial bonus is, that's three potentially big gates that we hadn't budgeted for," he said.
"I think it's a different product. It is an international league and the standard is much improved because these countries all have their own professional leagues.
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Take a good look at the geographical situation of those minor countries then compare it Oceanias isolation. Distance - Travel - Cost. As for the Prof I think you may well find airfares, accomadation and meals to the Asian continent for a touring party of up to 25 players and officials is exorbitant to say the very least. Read huge.
Sure NZ is isolated but, the other Island Nations are actually
closer to Japan than we are. direct flights may be costly but once
again other confedrations manage it with smaller nations so why
can't Asia.
Queenslander 3x a year.
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