You've got to be kidding

Fantastic post Daikiwi. That is the number one reason why the Nix should be lobbying the FFA to partake in the ACL. If they are successful and win that tournament they can match up against the OFC representative in Japan.

Are The Phoenix New Zealand or Australian?
Certainly the club is domiciled here in NZ and NZF will confirm they were formed under there umbrella.

However, all their players are registered through the Australian Federation. For those players that might filter down to the NZFC on completion of the A League - Draper, Costa, Spoonley etc they will require an International clearance. If they were transferring from a NZ club to an NZ club why do you need an international clearance?

NZF recently changed the dates for which international transfers were available. The first is at the commencement of the NZFC. I don't know when the second one is it used to be prior to the commencement of the winter league.

NZF will presumably move their international transfer windows yet again to accommodate The Phoenix. If they then do that does that mean that NZFC teams in a play off with The Phoenix will also be able to recruit players from off shore and the A League for the play offs?

Appears to me then they are effectively Australian.

To include them in the O League requires their players to be registered with the National Association that they represent. Clearly this is not the case.

Will The Phoenix also be restricted to NZF rules regarding "Guest Players" and only be allowed to field three such players.

Should The Phoenix end up at the CWC and it is in Japan again it is possible that three of the seven teams at the tournament will have their players registered with the National Association of an Asian Conferederation member. That being the Hosts - JFA, AFC winner and Phoenix from Australia. All a bit mickey mouse really.

Inclusion of the Phoenix this year adds another set of issues. All competing teams in this year's O League had to name their squad on 1 October 2007. Clearly the Phoenix did not. If they enter late presumably other O League teams will want ot strengthen / replace players in their current squad.

Plenty of regulations at NZF and Oceania to amend. Still I'm sure they will manage that and then wonder why the rest of the game is in such a state

City Fan raises probably the most valid point: All competing teams in this year's O League had to name their squad on 1 October 2007. Clearly the Phoenix did not. If they enter late presumably other O League teams will want ot strengthen / replace players in their current squad.

That is part of the issue that is challengable by law. IF the Phoenix is allowed in, under the existing rules then WU and ACFC are not allow to bring any further players in. They could argue legitimately that they should be able to recruit for the finals. Other countries could appeal they weren't given that option due to the Oct 30 player deadline.

This could be a total unholy legal mess.

Substance over form absolutely City Fan. The Nix have to be an Aussie club to play in the A-League. Their route to the CWC lies through Asia, and as explained above look at how many rules and regs have to be bent and broken for them to "disguise" themselves as an Oceania club. Piece of jigsaw puzzle that doent fit in OFC...

Under whose definition? Can you produce anything official from the FFA or FIFA saying that the A-League is restricted to Australian teams? Or any official view from the FFA, FIFA, NZF, the AFC, the OFC or the Phoenix themselves that they are an Australian team?

Well how about starting with where the players are registered...generally a pretty good indicator as to the domicility of a club RobbWatson...

So, Cardiff City are an English club Uli, and Swansea, and Wrexham ?

Phoenix is a NZ club, the club is based, registered owned and operated in NZ, the players are registered in an Aus comp, but the club is an NZ org, just playing in an aus comp. Happens all over the place. Get over it and move on!

Why do they need an international clearance to join an NZ club if they are an NZ club?

The Phoenix are barred from entering the Asian Champions League by the Asian Confederation because they are a New Zealand team and therefore an Oceania team. End of story.

But for any other club to sign a Phoenix player will require an international transfer and NZ Clubs are subject to only 3 guest players (except for Marquee Players in the NZFC) under NZF rules.

Why don't we just have a set of rules for the Phoenix and to make them more competitive allow them to play with 12 players this would shore up the defence.

All entrants in any competition need to play by the same set of rules.

As has been pointed out the welsh teams cometing in the Football League are essentially "English" in that they can not take part in Welsh competitions.

Similarly Berwick Rangers don't get to enter both the FA Cup and Scottish FA Cup.

If you want to take the argument to an international level Israeli teams play in European competitions because Isreal has been put in to Uefa. Despite being part of the Asian continent geographically the clubs can't choose to play in the ACL.

You are what you are. If you play in an Aussie League you are ultimately an Asian club side no matter where you are based geographically. If you have accepted as part of your entry not to be able to compete in the ACL then I don't know why the rest of NZ needs to find a solution for you. Go and argue your case with the Aussies and the Asians.

Alternatively if your holy grail is the Club World Cup apply for a NZFC Franchise and qualify like every one else.

At the end of the day Blatter's comments are politically based. Inclusion of the Phoenix would not necessarily achieve his aim. While they are a "professional club" if they have finished last in the A League every other club in the world would want to know why they have qualified for a Champions Tournament.

Still this could lead any where. From memory Northern Spirit were part owned by Rangers. Maybe european clubs will buy into or set up their own Nz based clubs abd shuttle down their reserve teams to play in the O League and qualify for CWC.The opportunities are endless. One big pandora's box

As always this whole arguement/discussion is based on speculation around one very politcally motivated statement. Noone can really know whats going to happen cos its never going to be discussed in the open until a decision is habded out.

But if Ba did enter the NZFC (the inclusion of a Fijian team in the NZ National League has previously been mooted) do you think they would qualify for the O League as Fiji's representative without having played in the Fiji National League?

I would expect NZF would hold the registration of the Ba players just as they do for all NZFC teams or at least the Federations do on their behalf.

The Phoenix are ultimately an Aussie club. sometimes you just have to acdept that iif it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then for all intensive purposes it is a duck even if you give it a different name.

That's not to say we don't all want them to do well (apart from Happy Ted) as they are our local team in that competition.

When it comes to the O League there are clear eligibility and competition standards that the Phoenix clearly do not conform to.

I will ask one last question which will confirm everyones motivation. If there was no CWC would the Phoenix still be pushing to play in the O League. I suspect not.

same old Auckland - always pilfering $$$$$$

We are in the fifth edition of the O League / Champions Tournament.

The Kingz / Knights never played or attempted to even when Australia were part of Oceania because you qualify from the league you play in.

The Phoenix want direct entry simply because they are the only "professional club" in the country and think it is a easy cash cow having realised how expensive it is to run a club.

Take away the CWC and the Phoenix couldn't give a toss about the O League. However, for all the other teams throughout the Pacific it will still hold value as it is the next step up the ladder in terms of competition.

The Phoenix will surely kill the O League. Why will the island nations contemplate entering and spending scarce funds if they are playing an Aussie team? The O League will continue with or with out the CWC. Add the Phoenix and it will die.

If Dave Wilson signs a team of players from the A League to play in the winter competition and by everyones assessment is better than the NZFC teams should he also have a crack at the O League / CWC?

Let this not be a discussion based on geography - Auck v Wgtn - when you can't debate the thread no doubt you will result to a slanging match.

For you info I have no connection to any NZFC club but have watched many games.

As for Auckland City my understanding is they gave nearly $60k to each of the seven other franchises at the start of the year and were left with around $200k. This filled the hole created by competing in Tahiti the year before which cost close to $150k for no return.

So on a cash basis they are no further ahead from the CWC than any other franchise in NZ.

Presumably as a New Zealand club you would like to see the Phoenix enter the Chatham Cup this year. I guess this is also on the cards.

Accept that the duck is an aussie duck just as The Kingz and The Knights were.

I would love The Phoenix to win the A League and have 15 kiwis in the squad I just don't agree that they qualify for the O League.

But almost as another thread I can see Happy Ted's perspective. The Phoenix are not necessarily good for grassroots football.

Just as the NZFC has killed winter club football the Phoenix are surely killing the NZFC. The best NZFC was year one when there was no A League. There were bigger crowds, more even competition and certainly more press coverage including its own TV show.

As punters we like to be asssociated with the biggest and the brightest. You can get 11,500 to the average home game of the Phoenix and less than 1000 to Team Wellington. Because the perception is the football is second rate no one turns up.

Once we have killed off both the NZFC and winter clubs where will the young players come from to go to the Phoenix? Don't tell me the Federation Academy coaching programmes - as they are somewhat laughable. You wouldn't let most of those coaches near a senior womens team let alone a NZFC team.

Do Phoenix supporters believe their route to the CWC should be through Asia or Oceania? It is a simple question...

 

currently as a Phoenix supporter I'm not fussed what champions league we play in if at all. At this point I'd like to see us play well in the A-League! pure and simple.

terminator_x2008-01-17 19:50:24

Brilliant T-X, this is clearly not going to be a simple fix, there is far too many factions involved. Either way it has highlighted the mess that NZ football is in due to a huge lack of funds to strighen up what potentially could be an awesome competition in the national league. I'm sure Team Wellington, Waitakere etc would love to play in front of 11500, but is it going to happen when NZ football can't/won't put any money towards making the comp meaningful for the Joe blogs football fan??

I though from the previous threads that you were all adamant that The Phoenix
were entirely different entity to Kingz/Knights? So what  are u on about with this were not Auckland anymore?

Bloody hell many of the statements made in this and some other threads  look like many of the same arguments that have troubled football in NZ for the last 20/30 years.Im afraid until some in the game in NZ change their attitude the game will never move forward.
As someone who has come back to watching football in NZ having given it away after getting thoroughly pd off with the constant me me attitude of many involved in the game.It really dosnt surprise me to see many things havnt changed.

I would suggest some of you talk to some young players on what they think of having the Phoenix around.I have some friends who have children involved in a couple of academy's  and they reckon its really given those involved an incentive to stick at it.
I would be very surprised if registrations for the coming season dont go through the roof in some areas.

Good luck to those of you with the narrow foresight and agendas fortunately i think you will find you become a minority  in the not to distant future.

Fully expect when i return to this thread or a similar one in about 3 weeks it will still sound like the crap from years ago.

But they are not an Aussie club. Unlike the previous knights squad, we actually have New Zealanders making at least half of the squad. The FFA wanted an New Zealand team with lots of New Zealanders playing and not 2nd/3rd English Professionals with some Aussie or New Zealanders filling the gaps. Sure the FFA look over here and see 4 million people as potential A-league supporters market and they are right.

But the FFA knows that the Knight were not doing the sums right by not very little NZ players and so no real home support plus being in Auckland was a huge disadvantage with a City with two completing nzfc clubs and home ground located away from the main city central. plus Auckland full of other sports and other New Zealanders and people born outside Auckland and also non-Aucklanders and Aucklanders alike resented that "NZ" knight tag as well.

Anyway, you are wrong about the FFA stopping their CWC aspiration, they only wanted the NZ market for the A-league as much as we wanted it but we all know that we are an NZ club and the Asian Confederation ruled that NZ players are foreign players for their ACL competition (limited to 4 foreign players per squad) (whereas for the A-league, NZ players are not consider Foreign players) which would disadvantaged Wellington Phoenix since we are suppose to have home crowd support for our local players. And it limits NZ players in other A-league clubs, this year only Leo Bertos are the only NZ player outside of The Nix playing in A-league.

Also as another poster has pointed out, A-league is higher than NZFC and O-league and that we always had a NZ club in their professional league before the A-league existed and way before the FFA joined the Asian Confederation in a bid to player higher quality opposition. This was in no way suppose to slam the Nix CWC aspiration. The slamming actually comes from the NZFC clubs because these clubs wanted the the $$$$ money $$$$ for themselves. Personally I thought that it would end up having rich and poor Amateur clubs in the NZFC as the result and unbalanced the competition.

Anyway, a new agreement will soon be drawn up to allow the NIx in the O-league and possibility of a change to the NZFC in their Foreign Players Policy especially about using Australian players to be on level playing ground for the O-league against the NZFC and this would probably mean an overall increase of NZFC clubs to widen the NZ players base later on, which it fine by me. I think that Australian player should really be given non-foreign status for the time-being and see if that affect the NZFC clubs and the NZFC competition.

I firmly believe that we need to raise the NZFC into a closer footing to A-League standard and with it being still semi-professional there would not be too much Aussies coming over when there is plenty of exposure in the likes of the Semi-professional Victorican Premier League for A-League teams. But at least when it comes to O-league, the NZFC clubs have some level playing ground against the Nix. I think that oceania confederation should not be as harsh about foreign player policy against Aussie players in O-league as the Asian Confederation were to the NZ players in the ACL, simply because of the need to raise the Oceania Standard to ensure future participation in the CWC.

theprof2008-01-18 12:55:41

I went along to the home of the broad-minded fan and "what's good for NZ football" today, Auckland City. I see the party line isn't just being repeated by the fans. The ACFC chairman has his say in the program and, surprisingly enough, states that "The Phoenix are an Australian cub playing in an Australian competition, etc, etc, blah, blah ".  

I do have knowledge of recent pro football in NZ and good to see you have upheld the tradition
of getting the wooden spoon well done guys

Would be very interesting to get the views of the other 7 NZFC clubs as well

Ted, how are you. I thought you'd have been out celebrating..

I've been thinking the same thing myself.

Hopefully that will be next week after we beat Waitakare again