Democalypse 2017 - The Election Thread

I remember when they started in NZ. 

Have always had some good ideas but generally flaky. Wonderful in theory but would never work in practise. Too left wing for me.

Key delivered only the "good news", Joyce's job was to always deliver the "bad news". Perhaps that Dildo in the face was deserved after all.

Bring back the Minister of Wine and Cheese?

At the time I lived just up the road from Janette Fitzsimons in the Kauranga Valley just outside of Thames. I voted for the centre right back then, I've definitely gotten smarter as I've gotten older which is why I now vote for the greens.

good thread to cement your opinions about somebody

I'm sure that they're cemented firmly by now.

Was talking more about being enrolled in an electorate they didn't live in. English said he had made Wellington his home in 2009 (during the housing allowances stuff), but was still enrolled in Clutha-Southland during the 2011 election. And presumably voted for himself. 

Key had similar issues  but that seems it's a bit more complicated (outlined here).

I would have thought English has his home as Southland and could thus get reimbursed accom?

Isn't that quite different to enrolling to vote in an electorate that you never lived in at a house you didn't live in deliberately in order to be able to vote for someone else? 

Personally I think neither of the things she did are in and of themselves enough to disqualify her from serving in parliament but the biggest issue is that it is becoming clear that her "circumstances" when she falsely claimed under the DBP were far more allegorical than the reality of life on benefits that she is trying to highlight?  

Basically the story she told in order to promote a set of policies completely misrepresents her circumstances and has done huge damage to the cause that she represents because it has perpetuated the stereotype that many people have regarding people who are on benefits?  Politically she's untouchable so hanging on only does her party more harm surely.

It's the evaluation of Words and Actions

If I'm a Man of the People / Workers Rights Advocate campaigning on the "Living Wage" yet I employ Staff on minimum wage then I am not credible.

Conversely if I am the Minister of Finance and I encourage the country to collectively tighten their belts because the previous Government wasted the Surplus I shouldn't be receiving  $1000/week on an Accomodation Allowance.

English's belief on what was his entitlement versus the real life manifestation of his words shows the measure of the Man. 

English has lived in Wellington since the 80s (went to University at Vic then worked in the treasury), his wife is a DR that has a practice here, his kids went to school here, he owns property in Karori...

He's spent his entire adult life living and working in Wellington and his family lives here, saying that he lived in Clutha was a lie that was intended to get the tax payer to pay for his mortgage. He also said that he had no financial interest in the house as it was owned by a family trust despite having a financial interest listed in his accounts and being a trustee (which he later stopped being).

That's slightly (deliberately?) disingenuous.  There has always been taxpayer support for MPs who are required to maintain both a house in their constituency outside Wellington as well as a house in Wellington.  The rules were unclear, although English certainly sought to maximise the amount he could claim under those rules it's a long bow to draw that he deliberately sought to break the rules and claim more money than he was entitled to.  

It's reasonable to highlight that but from an equivalence perspective deliberately breaking the law does have to be seen in a different light surely?

I don't believe it's disingenuous, the fact is that English kept claiming that his permanent residence was in Clutha but it clearly wasn't as his family was also based here. Some MPs move to Wellington and no longer claim the benefit, others commute back to their own district when they are not required to be in parliament. 

Of course it would be unfair to force families to live a part when one member of the household is elected and it wouldn't be so clear cut if Bill English moved from Clutha to Wellington only after being elected as an MP, but as I said he went to university here and then had a working career before becoming an MP. It's clear that Wellington was his home before being elected.

And of course the Greens were not above using the rules that existed to their own advantage.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/politics...

Isn't that what John Key did between 2002-2004? Enrolled at a property he never lived in, in a different electorate from the property he did live in? The article 2B linked to does show it was slightly grey. 

English may have met the criteria of having 'lived at that address for at least one month' in Dipton (not knowing the timeframe for that, I am able to enroll at my parents property even though I haven't lived there for 12 years?) when the 2009 allowance case showed that his main residence was in Wellington. For 2014 he was enrolled in Wellington Central, no longer an electorate candidate in Clutha-Southland so no need to vote for himself.

Turei's case in terms of electoral fraud should really be a minor story, she was running in that same election but registered in a different electorate to vote for her friend - both for mcgillicuddy serious and both getting less than 200 votes. The problem is that the property she was incorrectly enrolled at was owned by the father of her daughter - which, among living with others, complicates her dbp case.

Exactly. It would be a complete non story otherwise

https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/09-08-2017/the-s...

Of course the real story is the (possible) additional DPB fraud!  Hers is a character issue in that she has deliberately registered in a different electorate at an address she didn't live at - English and Key were both registered to houses they didn't live at but were defensible in terms of the wording of the statute.  In the grand scheme of things this is minor but it is a huge oversight for her to have raised the whole issue and not have thought about her failure to register in the correct electorate       

No, that really should be the ONLY story and for the Greens it had the intended consequence of opening up debate about our compassion and treatment of our most vulnerable (I now know more about the treatment of beneficiaries and as a comparison tax and ACC fraudsters and the discrepancy on how they treated) but also the unintended consequences of such political blowback so close to an election.

it was 'done' (badly) because she was going to be outed

It was a stunt to get beneficiaries and those whom were not receiving any income from any source to vote for the Green party. It was a calculated move that has backfired and blown up in her face. Resulting in 2 MP's resigning in protest and airing dirty laundry in public. But her ego still won't acknowledge it. The lady whom resigned Parliament today accepted a job offer in July and should not be used as canon fodder. Good luck to her in her new job though.

PS: Enjoying the various debates going on in this thread. Pretty well articulated and certainly food for thought. Cheers to all of you for partaking.

What does she have to do to acknolwedge it?

Although she in fact cannot admit this what would help is an acknowledgement that her circumstances were not in fact as she has represented (a stark choice between feeding her child and breaking the law).  Ultimately her own "story" was actually an allegory used ot highlight the issues that some beneficiaries face...

That sounds almost exactly what she has done.

Some ladies who live same town as Paula Bennett did have been running a facebook campaign to get her investigated - Claim they knew she worked and stayed with a partner while on DPB, but can't say how often or if she declared it or not.  Watch the Press (been on going for a year so suspect not dirt or no journalist interested. LOL

While it is not a good look, I'm not sure I really care about what Metiria Turei has done, nor Bill English nor John Key.  I wish the media would focus more on the policies of each party rather than the politicians themselves. 

Lonegunmen has pointed out that the Turei speech was a stunt - and it may well have been - but the reality is that NZ does have issues with poverty and homelessness.  None of this seems to have gotten any better under the current government. 

I want to hear more about what each party are going to do about it - although I guess that doesn't drive enough clicks on Stuff & Newshub.

Turei has quit as co-leader, I think this is a loss for NZ and it's a sad event but it's good that the political party is holding itself to a higher level than National or Labour and had to happen.

She really had no other choice. The Greens were on the verge of imploding.

 

Yep, whether or not she was right to do what she did, she really should have resigned at the point she said she would not take up a cabinet minister roll.  The last week has really hurt the party, and made it impossible to talk about any of the policies the Greens stand for.  Twitter can blame the media for this all they like, but the reality of the situation was clear then, and the newshub poll result shows that.

If the Greens finish below Winston First, they really do cede a lot of power in any negotiations, so I think it was quite selfish of her to hold on.  I don't know much about Clendon, but I was really disappointed in the attacks on Kennedy Graham.  I have a lot of respect for him and the stuff I saw attacking him for being a stuffy white male was really dissapointing.

Hopefully some attention can now be paid to finding out what is in the 400+ texts that English sent to Dickson while staying completely out of the Barclay situation.  How English got away with the lies he told, and changing his story every time a new piece of the puzzle came out I have absolutely no idea.  Especially after ripping of the tax payer for (i'm almost certain) a hell of a lot more money that Turei ever did.  But he did it with lawyers and loopholes and nudges and winks with the old boy network, so it's not a big deal.

Really? 

Kennedy Graham put himself ahead of the change of government. Kind of a difficult one to explain credibly to me. 

The polls are due to the Ardern factor.

Metiria was a key cause in getting Ardern into the position she's in. 

Gordon Campbell on Graham "Sportingly, on RNZ this morning, Greens co-leader James Shaw praised Graham as being a world class expert on climate change and a leader on cross party co-operation on the subject. Hmmm. Lets just say that this high assessment is a minority view around Parliament that’s quite possibly held only by Shaw, and by Graham himself."

http://werewolf.co.nz/2017/08/gordon-campbell-on-t...

I don't know what your respect for him is based on, but for the first time in a decade I saw someone standing up for beneficiaries and the poor and he joined the queue to stick the knife in. And help the braying mob including Kiwiblog, Mike Hosking, Patrick Gower et al...

Also:

"Green Party general manager and campaign director Sarah Helm revealed this evening that both MPs were asked by the party to stand down at the general election but refused to.

As a result, they were demoted in the list rankings, she said, and had been disgruntled ever since. “I think they were looking for a reason to resign or withdraw.” Helm also revealed that the two MPs had been “underperforming” in the election campaign so far. Clendon had made just one phone call, and Graham had done three to four hours’ campaigning work, she said."

But, hey, you know...it was principle and that...

And you'd think that getting Hayley Holt (did you noooo she went out with Raichie McCaaw?) into parliament would help get them positive mentions on the news...

Turia will now be out of the spotlight, can campaign for her party and sort her private issue out. English has been caught out and his Pinocchio or wooden dead pan responses are not fooling anyone. He is involved but he has been around long enough to use a get out of jail free card.  Just when National are probably at their weakest, Labour and the Greens have done pretty much everything to lose an election. A shame really.

I too, would love to know more about policies than personalities. But I do not want to hear about policies that reek of.."IF we get elected then in 30 years we want this to be done". I want to hear "If we get elected we will start to make this happen within the next 2 years so that you can see we meant what we said". That Auckland City to Airport rail thing should be started next year and completed a couple of years later, not in 20 years time.

The problem is that we need to know that our leaders have integrity, otherwise we could get in the situation that they have in the US currently.

Ardern factor was definitely a part of it, but I don't believe the Greens would have lost one third of their vote to Labour without an issue pushing them out the door as well.

Again, I find it sad that you feel the need to attack Graham, while at the same time using the term 'braying mob' (which, for some you mentioned I do agree with).  The Twitterati has definitely been out in a mob like manner at Graham and Clendon, discounting there service to the Party and the country.  Despite what the campaign director has said, surely if he was asked to resign or wasn't valued as they are mentioning he wouldn't have been placed at 11 on initial list by the party, and then pushed up to 8 in the final list by the party members vote, ahead of rising stars like Chloe Swarbrick and Golriz Ghahraman, who i'm sure the party would love to have in Parliament.  

Finally, not sure what Hayley Holt has to do with anything, but it was the members vote that pushed her up 13 places into what was (before this all blew up and potentially really hurt the vote), an electable position.

Edit: Also, does noted right wing journalist John Campbell fit into the 'braying mob' as it sounds like it was his teams investigation that turned out to be the final straw?

Suddenly the Greens aren't the young and forward thinking party anymore that is the old guard labor. Although I don't buy it, I'm not a fan of career politicians at least Shaw and Turei had successful careers outside of Wellington.

Agree about the Rail (preference for heavy over light) but there is very much a need to get it right for Auckland.

The pressure around Auckland Traffic has eased considerably with the opening of the Waterview Tunnel, taking around 20 mins of Peak time travel for many people. The trip from the Airport to the CBD by Car is now around 15 mins shorter and probably a lot less to the North Shore. 

2 years at Simpson Grierson a successful career? 

Getting a law degree while being a solo mother on a benefit is pretty successful in my book,

To be fair, when I see how many idiot lawyers are walking the streets of this country, getting a law degree may not be the achievement it once was.