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Russel Norman v China

59 replies · 1,664 views
almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Russel Norman v China
Profile pic. Should you be interested. Lakhsen, on the right, lost touch with him.
Mohammed, on the left, I'm still in touch with. He's now living in Agadez, Niger. More focused on his animals now as tourism has dried up. Is active with a co-op promoting local goods, leather work and bijouterie, into Europe. 
20/5/20

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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/3825646/MPs-Tibet-protest-flag-removed

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10652789

Wellington police say they will investigate a complaint from Green co-leader Russel Norman over an alleged assault at the hands of the Chinese Vice President's security staff.




Loving this. Just watch people run for cover over this. There is absolutely NO CHANCE that they will take any action against the Chinese security guys... even now NZ officialdom is praying that they leave the country ASAP in case they actually have to do something....   
dairyflat2010-06-18 18:49:29
Profile pic. Should you be interested. Lakhsen, on the right, lost touch with him.
Mohammed, on the left, I'm still in touch with. He's now living in Agadez, Niger. More focused on his animals now as tourism has dried up. Is active with a co-op promoting local goods, leather work and bijouterie, into Europe. 
20/5/20

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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
All I can say is 
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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Russel should be punished for abusing his status. If he wants to us his status to protest, then he should do it in the house.

Else behind the fences he must go.Michael2010-06-18 22:30:02
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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Wait, so MP's shouldn't be allowed to protest, unless they are in parliment? Mr_Incredible2010-06-18 22:45:25
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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Sure they should be allowed to protest - but he should be protesting with every one else.

If he wants to protest as an MP, I don't think its right for him to abuse his status (and stand right next to him) and hence should submit whatever they submit and have a debate about it.Michael2010-06-18 22:53:38
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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
This ^^
 
Those who protest have no other option of making their voice heard. An MP surely has a much more civilised (for lack of a better word,not saying protests are uncivilised) option if he doesnt like something.

Allegedly

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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
"Give me my flag back!" (Said in a whimpy voive)
Proud to have attended the first 175 Consecutive "Home" Wellington Phoenix "A League" Games !!

The Ruf, The Ruf, The Ruf is on Fire!!

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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
No surprises here then....

Police have found insufficient evidence to substantiate claims Green Party co-leader Russel Norman was assaulted during the arrival of Chinese Vice President Xi Jinping at Parliament.

Photographs clearly showed Dr Norman being grabbed by Chinese security personnel travelling with the vice president at Parliament this afternoon while the Green MP protested the visit by waving a Tibetan flag.

Wellington City Area Police Commander, Inspector Peter Cowan, said police had investigated the complaint but didn't find enough evidence to lay charges.

"Police have spoken to a number of people who witnessed the incident, reviewed available footage, and approached the Chinese delegation who declined to comment with information that might assist the inquiry,"  Inspector Cowan said.

"Within the timeframes available to us police have decided there is insufficient evidence to substantiate any assault charges at this time."



Profile pic. Should you be interested. Lakhsen, on the right, lost touch with him.
Mohammed, on the left, I'm still in touch with. He's now living in Agadez, Niger. More focused on his animals now as tourism has dried up. Is active with a co-op promoting local goods, leather work and bijouterie, into Europe. 
20/5/20

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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Tegal wrote:
This ^^
 
Those who protest have no other option of making their voice heard. An MP surely has a much more civilised (for lack of a better word,not saying protests are uncivilised) option if he doesnt like something.



Like?
Profile pic. Should you be interested. Lakhsen, on the right, lost touch with him.
Mohammed, on the left, I'm still in touch with. He's now living in Agadez, Niger. More focused on his animals now as tourism has dried up. Is active with a co-op promoting local goods, leather work and bijouterie, into Europe. 
20/5/20

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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
df, as you predicted! 
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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
On TV news Russell Norman came across as as spoiled child unable to share his toys and unable to say please.
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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Lonegunmen wrote:
"Give me my flag back!" (Said in a whimpy voive)


Exactly, LG.

I watched it 3 times.  Yes, someone took his flag away, but I didn't see anyone manhandle him, in fact I saw Russell grabbing the Chinese security guy!!

Democracy?  His party's party list isn't exactly democratic.
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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Wongo wrote:
Lonegunmen wrote:
"Give me my flag back!" (Said in a whimpy voive)


Exactly, LG.

I watched it 3 times.  Yes, someone took his flag away, but I didn't see anyone manhandle him, in fact I saw Russell grabbing the Chinese security guy!!

Democracy?  His party's party list isn't exactly democratic.


The party's list is voted for by members, whereas many other parties are not.
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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Wongo wrote:
Lonegunmen wrote:
"Give me my flag back!" (Said in a whimpy voive)


Exactly, LG.



Damn right, he had the right to have and show that flag and Chinese officials (nor anyone else) have the right to take it off him.

It's not "Give me my flag back!" - it's "Don't touch my f**king flag!"
Mr_Incredible2010-06-19 21:42:21
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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Funny how so many peopkle are attempting to justify the actions of the Chinese security people's actions.   Mmmm

Anyway our PM has caught on and he APOLOGISED to the Chinese for what happened. EH?????  A Kiwi MP is pushed about at Parliament by Chinese security and NZ apolgises. Our PM seems to have had his backbone removed. 

http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/newsdetail1.asp?storyID=177530
dairyflat2010-06-21 11:41:58
Profile pic. Should you be interested. Lakhsen, on the right, lost touch with him.
Mohammed, on the left, I'm still in touch with. He's now living in Agadez, Niger. More focused on his animals now as tourism has dried up. Is active with a co-op promoting local goods, leather work and bijouterie, into Europe. 
20/5/20

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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Lol^^ Typical Lefty.Michael2010-06-21 11:42:26
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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Michael wrote:
Lol^^ Typical Lefty.


Define!
Profile pic. Should you be interested. Lakhsen, on the right, lost touch with him.
Mohammed, on the left, I'm still in touch with. He's now living in Agadez, Niger. More focused on his animals now as tourism has dried up. Is active with a co-op promoting local goods, leather work and bijouterie, into Europe. 
20/5/20

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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
dairyflat wrote:

Michael wrote:
Lol^^ Typical Lefty.
Define!


I hate to jump to such conclusions about yourself, but your post typifies my view of the left wing.

- Never consider they're actually wrong
- Never consider their views aren't the majority
- Five seconds later they'll call everyone else one-eyed.
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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Michael wrote:


- Never consider they're actually wrong
- Never consider their views aren't the majority
- Five seconds later they'll call everyone else one-eyed.[/QUOTE]

Why would anyone from any part of the spectrum protest if they thought they were wrong?


and McCully said [quote]

"Of course we have freedom of speech in New Zealand, but that doesn't mean we have to use that freedom of speech to cause offence to people, particularly to overseas visitors," Mr McCully told TVNZ's Q and A show.

"What I'm saying is that Dr Norman shouldn't have actually been in that situation in the first place, if he'd have shown good judgement and if he'd put New Zealand's interests to the fore."

 









dairyflat2010-06-21 14:11:47
Profile pic. Should you be interested. Lakhsen, on the right, lost touch with him.
Mohammed, on the left, I'm still in touch with. He's now living in Agadez, Niger. More focused on his animals now as tourism has dried up. Is active with a co-op promoting local goods, leather work and bijouterie, into Europe. 
20/5/20

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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Michael wrote:
dairyflat wrote:

Michael wrote:
Lol^^ Typical Lefty.
Define!


I hate to jump to such conclusions about yourself, but your post typifies my view of the left wing.

- Never consider they're actually wrong
- Never consider their views aren't the majority
- Five seconds later they'll call everyone else one-eyed.
 
And the righties differ.....how exactly?
 
Anyway, I hate left v right arguments. Peeps gotta work together for a common good, regardless of political spectrum. Dismissing people as either right wing or left helps nothing.
I like tautologies because I like them.
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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Cosimo wrote:
 
Anyway, I hate left v right arguments. Peeps gotta work together for a common good, regardless of political spectrum. Dismissing people as either right wing or left helps nothing.



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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Free Tibet! Problems solved
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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Cosimo wrote:
 
Anyway, I hate left v right arguments. Peeps gotta work together for a common good, regardless of political spectrum. Dismissing people as either right wing or left helps nothing.

This statement is a contradiction though, working for the common good is not a right wing belief... at all, well in fundamental terms.
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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
linds wrote:
Cosimo wrote:
 
Anyway, I hate left v right arguments. Peeps gotta work together for a common good, regardless of political spectrum. Dismissing people as either right wing or left helps nothing.

This statement is a contradiction though, working for the common good is not a right wing belief... at all, well in fundamental terms.


I doubt most serious right wingers would agree - most right wing political parties believe economic freedom, strong private property rights and strong legal authority etc are for the common good, and what the majority wants.




I like tautologies because I like them.
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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I mean, if you look at the American Declaration of Independence, the line "the Pursuit of Happiness" was actually "the Pursuit of Property" in the first draft. It was equated as the same thing - this is why socialism and communism is so scary to Euro-Americans; their whole Constitution is based around the idea private property is the key to being happy. But the early founding fathers thought they were being generous with this - allowing everyone to own their property was good for all.

Also, you have the trickle down theory and rises in the standard of living which is often used to justify CEOs earning billions. Whether or not you think it actually works, it is often used as an example of why laissez faire economics is the best for everyone.

I think it is much more rewarding to find out why people think certain things, rather than the thing itself. People have reasons for believing certain stuff, misguided or not. These are the kind of discussions that get somewhere, rather than 'f**king hippies' or 'f**king facists' etc.

And what's fascinating is that both left wing and right wing ideas taken to extremes often end up with extreme losses of personal freedom, both by exerting too much authority.


Cosimo2010-06-22 07:21:45
I like tautologies because I like them.
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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Cosimo for PM!
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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Robb wrote:
Cosimo for PM!
 
Sneaky masty in the House!
I like tautologies because I like them.
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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I find it quite remarkable that Cosimo can go from this:

Cosimo wrote:
I mean, if you look..... both by exerting too much authority.


[/QUOTE]

to this:

[QUOTE=Cosimo]
Sneaky masty in the House!


in the space of 2 posts.

Bravo!
Mr_Incredible2010-06-22 09:11:10
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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
dairyflat wrote:
Tegal wrote:
This ^^
 
Those who protest have no other option of making their voice heard. An MP surely has a much more civilised (for lack of a better word,not saying protests are uncivilised) option if he doesnt like something.



Like?


Well, he could have requested a meeting with the VP or submitted possible questions regarding human rights for John Key and/or Phil Goff to ask in their meetings with him.

From the photos, it appears as though his intention was to harrass the Chinese VP and was harrassed in return. The problem isn't that he was protesting, it was that his method was highly unbecoming of a member of parliament.
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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Critical_Lemon wrote:

dairyflat wrote:

Tegal wrote:
This ^^
�

Those who protest have no other option of making their voice heard. An MP surely has a much more civilised (for lack of a better word,not saying protests are uncivilised) option if he doesnt like something.
Like?
Well, he could have requested a meeting with the VP or submitted possible questions regarding human rights for John Key and/or Phil Goff to ask in their meetings with him.From the photos, it appears as though his intention was to harrass the Chinese VP and was harrassed in return. The problem isn't that he was protesting, it was that his method was highly unbecoming of a member of parliament.


Even if he asked Key or Goff to ask questions, it wouldn't happen cause the NZ government don't want to upset China by asking them about Tibet or their appalling human rights record. I recall that John Key didn't even want to meet with the Dalai Lama.

His method wasn't right but at least he fights for what he believes in.






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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

I don't agree that "having other options" means a MP should be prevented from protesting. The actions Critical Lemon have suggested are certainly options, but that doesn't mean he should be stripped of his rights to participate in peaceful protest. The Green Party is often very much involved with protest groups. Some might see themselves as being more effective leading said protests than in parliament. A person shouldn't have to choose between one or the other.

I only see two issues here - whether he acted unbecoming of an MP, and whether he abused parliamentary privelage. I don't consider joining a protest or waving a Tibetan flag to be unbecoming at all - but if he deliberatly picked a scrap with the boyguards (which I've heard suggested but I don't necessarily believe), then he should be censured. As for abuse, I've also heard suggestions that he used parliamentary privelage to get closer than an ordinary citizen would have been legally allowed to. Now, I strongly believe an MP has the right to join a peaceful assembly, but he should also be held to the same standards of them. His parliamentary privelage means he can take the actions Critical Lemon suggested. It doesn't give him the right to use it as an advantage to cause distruptive protest.
 
Oh, and Cosimo for PM. Mark Paston for President.
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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
And Nelsen for speaker of the House! I want to see him telling off gobby MPs like he did that Slovakian bloke.

Is what he did 'peaceful protest' though? He wasn't violent, but the Chinese security probably considered him a minor threat. Having had him as a guest lecturer in a political science class a couple of years ago, I don't think he'd be the kind to go and purposefully create a scuffle, but a scuffle did break out, and if he was simply a member of the public who had broken secruity he probably would have been escorted off the parliament grounds.

It is great to see an MP be so passionate, but I think that what he did was a bit silly.
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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
He did look like a dick. I think we can all agree on that.
I like tautologies because I like them.
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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
What pisses me off is that so called western democracies will kow-tow and appease the Chinese - so as not to jeopardise any trade deals.

Wont ask any questions of human rights.
Wont ask any questions regards Tibet.
Wont meet with the Dalai Lama

When Hibs, went up, to win the Scottish Cup - I wisnae there - furfuxake!

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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Funny how John Key is happy to support freedom of speech and freedom of rights in this country, what is his position on these freedoms in other countries?Bullion2010-06-22 15:49:50
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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
He puts his fingers in his ears and goes "NANANANANA NOT LISTENING NANANANANA!"
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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
when our country's leaders gave away our means of production they also gave away our means of independence


PM sent to me eariler...
Profile pic. Should you be interested. Lakhsen, on the right, lost touch with him.
Mohammed, on the left, I'm still in touch with. He's now living in Agadez, Niger. More focused on his animals now as tourism has dried up. Is active with a co-op promoting local goods, leather work and bijouterie, into Europe. 
20/5/20

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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Thats actually quite a good observation DF. Fisher and Pikelet are in China arn't they?? And their product has dropped in quality. Mind you at probably 50 cents a day for wages, what do you erxpect?
 
In China, Russell Norman would probably be in a "Retraining Camp" for doing what he did. Mind you, as said, he looked a dick doing it and sounded whimpy - "give me my flag back" and what would he have done if they didn't? Go sit in the corner and cry?? Or waste more Police time that could be better used chasing bad guys more local than in foreign shores?
Proud to have attended the first 175 Consecutive "Home" Wellington Phoenix "A League" Games !!

The Ruf, The Ruf, The Ruf is on Fire!!

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almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Did anyone think that maybe Jonki's personal apology may have been seen as a loss of face for him?



Below, in response to LG's post is...

http://www.chinalawblog.com/2009/08/six_more_keys_to_china_quality.html

Some stuff on quality in Chinese manufacture.
Profile pic. Should you be interested. Lakhsen, on the right, lost touch with him.
Mohammed, on the left, I'm still in touch with. He's now living in Agadez, Niger. More focused on his animals now as tourism has dried up. Is active with a co-op promoting local goods, leather work and bijouterie, into Europe. 
20/5/20

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