Things that make you go hmmmm

I have heard but am afraid to speculate given the apparent legal threats going around... 

The strong response from the Police and his Lawyers gives me reason to think that there's actually some smoke to the fire. If it was really all as stupid and absurd as the media seem to claim, then why are the Police etc even bothering to get involved here? 

Please tread carefully on this.  There have been plenty of legal opinion pieces on this and I don't want us to be a test case. 

We'll be pretty aggressive on modding on this discussion point.

Had to google what UBI was.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income

I'm a capitalist (though totally believe in looking after vulnerable members of society) - so from a very quick read to me the UBI is a really bad idea. Would completely disincentive some members of society, to ever seek a job, or be productive. Not surprised the Finns dropped it. Not a Maggie Thatcher fan but she did have a clever little quote "socialism is a great system until you run out of other people's money".

Spent last few months in South America. From what I've seen from the 7 countries visited, is basically none of them have an unemployment benefit. Sure there are a lot of problems here, but do have admiration for folks who faced with no safety net, get out of bed every day and just get busy. I don't mean to sound patronising or whatever, but for them there is no option of sitting on their arse, asking the govt for money.

More than once I spoken to a young professional, who tells me how their parents had nothing, worked two jobs, paid for their kid's uni studies etc. Often the young professional is a little emotional, but the great thing here is the family unit is so often very tight - and they think nothing about now giving their parents/siblings cash each payday.

I don't know if the UBI is the answer, but we have to do something. They've been running small scale trials in California and they've found that that safety net increases productivity and encourages people to take risks and be more entrepreneurial, and I'm not talking about the hustling entrepreneurship forced on people because of subsistence living that you see in developing countries.

What if there are simply not the jobs to make things happen? What if you spend all your time struggling and settling for something and so you can't put your energies to being productive? Forcing people to go out and get things done because of desperation is not something to aspire to, and is not something which brings up the wages or creates productivity for the country. People who are desperate often do desperate things, in South America they have much worse problems with drugs than we have, they also have problems with people indulging in risky behavior like street prostitution and even the exploitation of minors. Human trafficking is a problem, slavery is a problem...There's also a link between a lack of nutrition brought on by poverty in childhood and problems with intellegence as an adult.

If we look at the self driving car example that we talked about above then you can see just the scale of disruption. I read somewhere that the transportation sector represented 10% of employment in the US and 8% of the GDP. You'll find that disruptive change will be very quick. The minute one logistics firm automates driving all others will have to follow suit or go out of business, a self driving truck can work 24/7 and has no wage costs. But if you look further at what that means, it means that car ownership will drop because I can just order a self driving car to come pick me up when needed, so the big car companies will have to scale down production drastically and the model that they're moving towards is one where they don't sell vehicles but provide an on demand transportation service similar to Uber. 

Electric vehicles don't need gas stations, if you go to Europe you see that charging stations are just installed on the curbs along the road and a vehicle will charge itself when parked on the street. Mechanics and body shops will be required less because there will be less vehicles on the road and because they're self driving there will be less accidents, and electric vehicles are fundamentally simpler than ICE vehicles so are easier to repair and should be more reliable.

So, you see one technology, like self driving cars, destroys vehicle manufacturing and all the services around vehicle maintenance and support, and you have a couple of million layoffs in the logistics industry having a flow on effect of having several million layoffs throughout the economy as a whole.

Raise some interesting points Ryan. Certainly is going to be some disruption. 

Close to home Ford (Geelong, Victoria) and Holden (Adelaide) are scaling back massively or closing altogether their car manufacturing. 

Personally I believe an unemployment benefit safety net, plus access to free training programs, counselling etc is the answer. Also interest free small business loans etc. The longer standing employees, will also get nice redundancy payouts - it's important they use that cash in a boringly good way - pay off mortgage etc. 

Don't see an UBI as the solution.

I just don't see UBI as affordable in our current model or any safety net for that matter.

One of the last speeches that Obama gave he talked about the challenges moving forwards with automation and unemployment, he talked about the need to change the mindset around what jobs are and that they won't be so important as a means of earning money but something which is important because people need to feel worth and a sense of identity which is associated with working.

In an ideal world we'll see an end to the idea of working full time, what jobs there are will be shared and we'll be working much less hours than we do now with greater work life balance. 

The funny thing about the above is it's not a reality now so people can't see it happening, for instance there's a massive shortage of drivers.

3D printer meat

Because they were getting a ton of media enquiries and 'tips' from the general public who had heard the rumours, so were trying to squash it.  Crazy that you think the police coming out denying it strengthens the claim.

I fudgeing hope so. Work is the biggest load of bollocks out.

I heard too about a month ago in passing and didn't believe it at all. Now I'm questioning

Well I am still none the wiser.

To avoid the yellowfever being sued displaying it on the forum, can you message me the goss?

Yeah I have no idea what its about.

maybe he's been fishing where he shouldn't be

either way smells of dirty politics to me...

It is quite clear the right wing whores like Kate Hawkesbuy with the evil eyes and narcissitic husband and Deborah Cone of the hyphenated name have been tasked by the far right to character assinatate him.

He is far easier game then his pregnant wife.

What Hardnews has said is totally understandable to me.

I don't think we've heard the end of it by any stretch anyway. 

That's the last I'll say. Sorry!

Getting a pilot light started on a 2008 gas cylinder for hot water $126.50. 2 minute job. LB White Ltd. Never again. I could live with $50 max. But that is a straight rip.

We had a plumber quote $900 on top of an existing job he was doing for us to route the hoTwiter tank overflow a metre to the drain, we were expecting maybe an hours labor seeing as he was already doing other stuff. The parts cost me $25 and the job took 30 minutes last weekend.

Who was it that said NZ had a low wage economy.

I dont mind the right to a make a decent living but like the Petrol Cartels, how much is a frigging enough? I include dentists in that list too.

to be fair to dentists they have massive student loans to repay.

Dental equipment is quite expensive apparently. That's one of the reasons it's so costly. My friend is a dental assistant and i asked her once why all dental treatment costs so much.

A co worker of mine tried to book in to see a psychiatrist for assessment of adult ADHD, it was a six months wait list for an appointment and $600 an hour, first appointment 2 hours with two one hour appointments a week for the first month then one one hour appointment per fortnight. His GP wouldn't prescribe him adult ADHD medication, he had to go see a Psychiatrist.

I doubt there's much expense in a leather couch.

No wonder NZ has bad mental health problems if the cost of mental health care is so high.

It's mental!

A thing that is making me go hmmmmmm at the moment... 

Trophy Hunting in Africa. It's had me going hmmm for a few months, but another podcast about it (Joe Rogan with Cameron Hanes) really rammed it home. 

So I see the pictures, I see the outrage, I remember the Cecil thing, my reactions are initially the same: "what in the hell??? why are people going there and killing animals like lions, elephants and rhinos???"

It seems like total madness, horrible horrible stuff. Surely it's not right and it needs to stop. 

Then I look into it a bit further... 

It seems that we are very uninformed about what is going on in Africa with these hunts. 

So yes, these people are killing these animals, but did anyone else know that this is actually vital to the animals' survival in the long term? I certainly didn't. 

400 elephants are legally killed every year. 30,000 elephants are illegally killed.

The money that was raised from the legal killing of the 400, is what is being used to drive down the 30,000. The profit from professional hunts literally pays for the entire anti-poaching movement, in a lot of places in Africa. That is its whole idea apparently. 

A story I heard the other month, was about the rhinos. So there was a type of rhino, I forget which, obviously not the one that just went extinct, but it is an endangered rhino (I think they're all endangered?). They have a massive high-fence reserve in africa, I forget which country this is sorry, can research and find out if needed. So every year, they give very limited numbers of tickets for the permission to kill a single rhino. Whomever buys one of these tickets, for hundreds of thousands of dollars, they come to this place, they are guided 100% of the time, and they must shoot the particular rhino that has been designated for them. This will be an old male that can no longer breed, and is causing trouble. Although they are now impotent, these old males will attack and kill the young fertile males, still trying to preserve their place at the head of the group, and they will also attack the young of the females that they have not fathered. They are now troublesome animals and are preventing more prolific breeding. So it's a win-win to take them out. The person gets their rhino trophy and goes back to Texas or wherever. The money they paid, is literally funding the reserve, and the entire country's anti-rhino-poaching efforts. 

So we get these stories, like Cecil, we get the picture of the guy with a dead rhino, we totally flip out because it just seems wrong. Then Obama virtue-signals and bans americans from bringing these trophies back to the US. He can't stop the hunting, it's not in his country, but he can stop the trophies coming back, which is what these guys want, so the business of doing this has dropped massively. Americans aren't wanting to do it as much, and they won't pay as much, because they can't put the head on their wall. 

And what is the result? Some of these reserves are just shutting down. Their revenue stream has gone. The funding for anti-poaching, increasing breeding, and preserving the animals, has gone. A 40 year old reserve in Tanzania for elephants just shut down entirely. 

The biggest shock to me was the news that the staff there, staff who have been paid to preserve the animals for years, have mostly walked into poaching jobs afterwards! So now, we have no americans going there and killing animals legally, so no instagram publicity stories to whinge about. Job done right? But instead, we've got MORE animals being killed, all illegally, by professionals who know exactly where they go, how they behave, everything about them. We just went from near-maximum protection, to basically zero protection, which is the exact opposite intention of the bill that Obama passed. 

What also amazed me was that when we think poachers, we think dudes shooting animals, leaving them to rot, but taking the ivory etc. Did you know that most poaching deaths are not from that at all? Most poaching deaths are kills for food, by people that need it, or so I'm told in that podcast.

Obviously some of this info needs further verification, but I've read a few pieces now, and listened to a few podcasts where it has been discussed, and it seems pretty legit.

What do people think about this?

I've been to Africa 3 times (the last 2 just to South Africa) - love it & it's sort of place that can get under skin so to speak. Last time I was in Cape Town, got speaking to my waiter (white guy) at a cafe for breakfast.

Crazy fascinating dude. Ex military, he basically just worked in cafe, part time seasonal. He was off to do a big walk/hike around Table Mountain later that day. Super fit. His real passion was saving the rhinos. Once had enough funds from his cafe work - was off back to Kruger National Park, and his work as a private ranger protecting rhinos.

Basically he and his highly trained mates (ex military I gathered), track the poachers - who mostly cross from Mozambique. They sometimes lay in ambush for 2-3 days. Defecate where they lie. Real SAS type stuff. They give poachers a warning to drop their guns, but if they run, they shoot to kill. He had that sort of semi crazy/real passionate look in his eyes. Previously he had done a sponsored walk from Cape Town to Durban (about 2 days drive) - to raise cash for rhino protection. Ex test cricketer Mark Boucher also has a high profile charity raising awareness funds.

Have seen also some interesting docos on this type of protection work.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/may/3...    Was also a doco as well as an article but can't find it.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/04/african-wom...

And yes "farming" wildlife to kill, is a really polarising topic. Louis Theroux wentto South Africa, and did a story on it. Here is a snippet -

To me a better solution, is going to the countries that buy poached animal products and getting it outlawed. Getting the sellers/traders prosecuted. For instance Hong Kong is full of elephant ivory, and Vietnam is the biggest consumer of Rhino horn. You know Rhino horn is basically same shark (keratin?) as your finger nail. The whole aphrodisiac thing is just a very very sad myth. What a waste of a beautiful animal. Fudgeing crazy. Makes me very angry indeed.  Call me a racist but alot of the consumption of endangered animal products comes out of Asia esp China. It's alright to market the at risk Panda as some sort of Chinese cuddly symbol, but what about stopping the ivory trade within your borders!

Yes other poached animals are killed as bush meat. eg in many African countries protein is very scare (no farmed animals) so wild animals are killed for food. Especially true of animals like gorillas and other apes. There are now lots of programs encouraging locals, to the see value of tourism re these animals over eating them

But it's the wild rhinos & elephants for now that are fast facing extinction - and will just end up in zoos. I think there is already a species of rhino that has only about 3 animals in total left.???.   From memory cross breeding with another separate rhino species was only hope left. Very difficult for them to breed out of the wild or something

The rhino is done - I think it was the white rhino. 

There were 3 left, 2 were female, the other was a very old male, and he couldn't get it done any more, hadn't been able to for the last few years. He just died the other week, and so they're done. 

Very sad. 

Very fudgeing sad. All to eat expensive ground down finger nails, when you could just buy viagra.

That may just be a sub species of White Rhino though, don’t think they are all extinct as yet. Still it’s fudgeing criminal.

The argument that legal hunting is some sort of environmental movement is just stupid. If you kill for fun then you're a psychopath, period.

Of course conservation needs money, but not that way.

Yes - the Northern White Rhino

Paulm: I haven't done my own research on your post as yet, but if as described on my initial proof read, then I would be in favour of controlled killing of certain animals that the rangers/experts say need to be killed, if it raises significant $$$ to further protect the remaining species.

Wether a specific animal is killed for "fun & $$$" by a trophy hunter, or by the park ranger out of necessity - its still dead.  I'd favour getting some benefit from its death.

Most poaching deaths are most certainly not for food. Why would the poachers go for rhino, elephants when there are millions of  wildebeest and impala to eat rather than go for ones that are hard to find. It is because of the ivory and horn. 

I lived in Africa for 18 years and have seen poaching with my own eyes and they were after antelope for food not horn or ivory. 

It's not even an argument. It's what is happening in places all over the world right now. It obviously works. Look at the USA, their commonly hunted native species are thriving everywhere, 100% due to legal hunting revenue. 

They didn't give stats or a percentage at the time, I've been googling and can't back it up with anything substantial, so perhaps they over-stated it. They did talk all about how elephant meat is highly desired though, apparently that's a well-known thing.

They also talked about some people that will scare lions off their kill (not elephant), quickly cut some off, and run away with it before the Lions wised up and came back. Madness.

I have seen elephants  killed and the local Africans have cut into the belly, dived in and eaten anything that is edible. Pretty gross really,

but natural to them.

People hunt things for conservation, and find it fun all the time. They see it as a necessity which they’re helping with, as well as sport. 

I don’t see how this is any different. Seems like a win win to me. It’s stupid and irrespto shut it down without actually having another way for conservation to get money. 

The animals will be getting killed anyway, so why not allow someone to pay to do it and help fund your conservation efforts. 

I remember once seeing a guy with what looked like a rifle except instead of a barrel, he had a massive telephoto lens. He liked "shooting" game animals for a living.

East African savannah countries I think is more likely poaching is too sell animal products re ivory and horn. However don’t forget poaching in the national parks of West Africa, or countries like Burundi, Rwanda, Congo, Uganda etc. These countries are more jungle like with far less antelope and the like to eat, so eating ‘bush meat’ is common and that can include endangered apes etc.

Also have no stats to back that up.

What I find bizarre is the undertone in here about how killing and eating wild animals is some sort of weird behaviour.

This is far better behaviour than what most of us are doing - buying packaged meat from animals that have been treated unbelievably badly, loaded up with antibiotics and other medications to try and beat off the constant disease that's prevalent in their environment. 

I for one am looking to the growing "lab meat" industry with a lot of optimism. As soon as that is cost-effective I'll be all in. Seems like the best solution to me. 

I'd say it's natural, full stop. 

It's only gross to us because we don't do it, or need to do it. We're able to have someone else do all the gross things for us, so we can buy it in a nice plastic package and just cook. 

My brother always agrues, that if you can't stomach watching an animal being killed and butchered - you shouldn't really eat meat.

But then we grew up on a farm, where it was all pretty natural. Somewhat ironically he now eats very little meat, I'd call him a semi vege.

Really in NZ, our pasture based red meat animals are fed little to nil antibiotics. They are also treated humanely (apart from some isolated cases), and even in death it's as quick as possible. A stressed animal tastes bad apparently (higher pH?).

Different I understand with the poultry & pig industries which I know little about.