Western Sahara

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in response to a PM about my avatar. The pic a reference to the Polisario who are trying to win independence for Western Sahara.
This link - http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/ian_williams/2008/01/practising_what_you_preach.html
gives an idea of where things are just at the moment. NZ is involved in that we import $125 million a year of pillaged phosphate from the region.

No country recognises Moroccan ownership of the territory, not least since a long series of UN resolutions in the general assembly and the security council have declared that the people of the former Spanish colony of western Sahara should be allowed to determine their own fate. Morocco quibbled, and got the UN to ask the International Court of Justice to rule on the issue in 1974. The court ruled against Morocco and said there should be an act of self-determination
dairyflat2008-01-21 11:05:29
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Well...I'm glad we cleared that up then.
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Always wondered what happened to Spanish Sahara.
Closer to home, West Papua/Irian Jaya is still occupied by Indonesia.
The local Indonesians born since 1961 know no difference.
This has the potential to flare up big time as minerals and oil are at stake and the locals appear to be getting organised again.  However, they are up against 25,000 troops.
WeeNix
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Western Sahara is a classic case of world corporations seizing resources and bending international law. The people of the region have never had a say in their fate, and Morrocco offered the best deal to resource strippers.
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Er, politicans splitting up the spoils...just like the Electoral Finance Act.

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Orpewise wrote:
Western Sahara is a classic case of world corporations seizing resources and bending international law. The people of the region have never had a say in their fate, and Morrocco offered the best deal to resource strippers.


And sadly NZ plays its part in this. Something like 95% of our phosphate imports , labelled Moroccan, actually come from Western Sahara. I know I am repeating myself here but in a letter from Phil Goff he said that Morocco's extraction of the phosphate was illegal but our buying it, from Morocco, wasn't.   

As for Irian Jaya isn't it  interesting how little BOTH NZ and Australia have say about Indonesia's presence there. That silence is our shame.
LG
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Yeah but everyone knows Phil Goff is a limp wristed politician who will say anything that might get him a vote. Trouble is for all his rhetoric, he never actually does anything!
 
Thanks for the heads-up on that Dairy, an interesting point of topic.
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dairyflat wrote:

As for Irian Jaya isn't it� interesting how little BOTH NZ and Australia have say about Indonesia's presence there. That silence is our shame.


Sadly Australia/NZ have a tradition of silence when it comes to Indonesia and its 'Dirty little Wars'.

While the British continue to sell their fighter planes.
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I had a fascinating letter, some years ago, from Robin Cook in which he tried to explain how the "ethical foreign policy" allowed Britain to continue those sales.  Shame I now longer have it because it was remarakble in its economy with reality.
 
In another he explained how Britain, which had sold artillery to Morocco on the express condition that it would not be used in  Western Sahara, would supply spare parts for the same guns. Morocco was in breach of the condition. Britain supplied the parts because they would be "breaching" their contract if they didn't. Naive me thought that Morocco had already invalidated the contract by breaching the conditions...   
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Did it have anything to do with the fact that they were designated 'training' aircraft?

Of course, what they may have not mentioned is the missiles 'trained' on the people of Timor l'est, that were carried under the wings.
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Did it have anything to do with the fact that they were designated 'training' aircraft? 
 
Yep, it did. That's the case.
LG
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Could we send Ahmed Zowie over to Morroco to sort it out? we could then invalidate his passport once he'd gone through their airport.
WeeNix
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why don't people worry about some of these issues IN OUR OWN COUNTRY before we go worrying about other countries that DON"T EVEN KNOW WE EXIST!

below are just a few of these issues

- children being killed by neglectful parents
- children killing other children
- dogs mauling children
- children doing drugs

maybe tend to the grass in our own backyard instead of trying to take care of the lawn at the
big house down the street.

Barber212008-01-25 16:47:30
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Barber21 wrote:

below are just a few of these issues

- children being killed by neglectful parents
- children killing other children
- dogs mauling children
- children doing drugs


and another... you probably missed this one...

 - NZ farmers stealing $125million a year of phosphate from Western Sahara

We should clean pur backyard...
LG
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Barbar you raise an interesting point.
 
Hone Harawera flew to Aussie, abused their Goverment for their alleged treatment of Abo's, He came back home and then abused our Police over the crap that went on up in the BOP and the training camps. Yet he (& the Maori party in general) was amazingly silent when it surfaced about the number of child deaths, molestations etc that had become a major problem amongst maori.
 
Leading by  example? Silence is golden? Obviously this is not just a Maori problem in our country but a universal problem. Yet the people with the highest percentage have continually refused to comment or do anything about it. Amazing as they are in a position to make things happen. but don't worry because Hone is more worried about the Abo's.
Lonegunmen2008-01-26 14:09:12
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http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10455617

Maori Party MP Hone Harawira has launched an outspoken attack on a "cycle of violence" which he says is brutalising Maori society.
dairyflat2008-01-26 15:47:28
LG
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Cheers, that one didn't get a mention anywhere else. Hone copped a lot of bad publicity around the time of his Abo cruisade for the lack of effort in this sad but true fact of life. Thanks Dairy.

I still think your point about the Sahara is a valid one.

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Lonegunmen wrote:
 
Hone Harawera flew to Aussie, abused their Goverment for their alleged treatment of Abo's...

...Amazing as they are in a position to make things happen. but don't worry because Hone is more worried about the Abo's.


I know you don't mean it in that context, but I should warn you just to help you avoid any future trouble should you head across the ditch - "Abo" is a racist slur, and a rather bad one (on the racist scale, it's much closer to the N-word than "cheeky darkie"). Stick to Aboriginal/Aborigine, or if in NSW use Koori.

That being said, I agree with your points - it's a universal problem that affects every community, and nobody should be silent on any of these issues. I'd rather our community leaders challenge us tpo stomp out the problem rather than sweep it under the rug and pretend it doesn't exist.
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Barber21 wrote:

why don't people worry about some of these issues IN OUR OWN COUNTRY
before we go worrying about other countries that DON"T EVEN KNOW WE
EXIST!



I guess I see my citizenship as global rather than being limited to NZs fair shores.
LG
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Aussie politicians to fix Aussie problems Robb, Kiwi politicians to fix Kiwi problems.
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I don't remember saying otherwise LG :-S


LG
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You didn't, I was making a point at Hone Harawera.
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Looks like I got too much sun today haha. Yes, Hawawera should focus on the problems at home. 
LG
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On a broader note, th issues at home need addressing. The people of this country want them fixed and have some good ideas. Politicians stall it so they can get themselves some good publicity. Perhaps some of the 8 billion dollar surplus could help resolve some issues.
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Except that colonial impact on indigenous peoples is a global phenomena. Therefore, some solidarity between people fighting such causes around the world is hardly to be unexpected. Presumably this demands taking an interest in other contexts around the world (and having an opinion on them)?
WeeNix
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dairyflat wrote:
Barber21 wrote:

below are just a few of these issues

- children being killed by neglectful parents
- children killing other children
- dogs mauling children
- children doing drugs


and another... you probably missed this one...

 - NZ farmers stealing $125million a year of phosphate from Western Sahara

We should clean pur backyard...


oh well, if stealing that $125 million saves our farmers from going broke then i'm willing to sacrifice that. i wonder how many people would put your concerns about phosphate ahead of my concerns about KIWIS DIEING........

if you wanna save them, leave NZ and go help them (not picking a fight just making a point)
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My concerns are not about phosphates. That was an illustration of the global village that we live in. NZ is a long way from Western Sahara. Yet,even so , we are complicit in a process that has kept then people of Western Sahara dispossessed, and in refugee camps, for thirty years
 
So you condone theft?
WeeNix
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i'll start worrying about that which is illustrated when all the problems within MY country are solved. Until then, the impact on me personally is non-existent. However, people I went to school with are being killed hundreds of METRES from where I live, that impacts me and will impact me till the day I die.

I admire your passion for this subject, but to directly imply NZ, as a country, is complicit in/to this process is bollocks. Its a dog eat dog world and i'm a firm believer in "by whatever means neccesary" so in this case i DO condone theft.

we have different points of view, which is ok.
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Question: are we the ones actually doing the steaing? or are we just puirchasing stolen goods?
Marquee
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Barber21 wrote:
i'll start worrying about that which is illustrated when all the problems within MY country are solved. Until then, the impact on me personally is non-existent. However, people I went to school with are being killed hundreds of METRES from where I live, that impacts me and will impact me till the day I die.

I admire your passion for this subject, but to directly imply NZ, as a country, is complicit in/to this process is bollocks. Its a dog eat dog world and i'm a firm believer in "by whatever means neccesary" so in this case i DO condone theft.

we have different points of view, which is ok.



ethics should be applied everywhere, it is a dog eat dog world and that's why it's so important.

just because it doesn't impact you personally doesn't mean it's not a relevant topic of discussion - i'm sure you watched the news when the twin towers got hit
Cosimo2008-01-28 13:39:28
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theprof wrote:
Question: are we the ones actually doing the steaing? or are we just puirchasing stolen goods?[/QUOTE]
 
We buy the stolen goods KNOWINGLY.  In the letter that I have from Phil Goff it says that NZ considers Morocco's mining to be illegal but our buying from them is not.
 
I suppose the question that can be asked is knowngly buying stolen goods theft? 
 
For clarity [quote]New Zealand imported goods (primarily phosphates) to the value of NZ$125 million in the year to December 2005. Morocco is New Zealand�s main source of phosphates, making up 80% of New Zealand�s phosphate imports.
Source: MFAT
 
90% of that comes from mines at Bou Craa in Western Sahara. MFAT knows that but stilll refers to the imports as being from Morocco.
 
 
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Ok, so we are making a purchase of good we KNOW are stolen - according to Mr Goff. Seems a bit off, but at the end of the day business seems to operate on this degree of separation thing, if we are not bying it off the people who stole the goods, but a middle man so to speak, then its gotta be ok?

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dairyflat wrote:
I had a fascinating letter, some years ago, from Robin Cook in which he tried to explain how the "ethical foreign policy" allowed Britain to continue those sales.  Shame I now longer have it because it was remarakble in its economy with reality.
 
In another he explained how Britain, which had sold artillery to Morocco on the express condition that it would not be used in  Western Sahara, would supply spare parts for the same guns. Morocco was in breach of the condition. Britain supplied the parts because they would be "breaching" their contract if they didn't. Naive me thought that Morocco had already invalidated the contract by breaching the conditions...   
 
Reminds me of that infamous Maggie Thatcher quote when she claimed there were 'reasonable people' in the Khmer Rouge to justify Britain equipping and training one of the most vicious and murderous armies in world history.
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Buying stolen goods involves financially supporting those who steal them. The profit they make from that $125 million allows Morocco to invest in continuing/exanding their mining operations.
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http://nz.youtube.com/watch?v=GMholJ4G9MI&feature=related

Norwegaian clip showing phosphate being unloaded in NZ. The vessel "Bulk Saturn" arrived New Zealand end of June 2007, carrying phosphates from Moroccan occupied Western Sahara.

Down in Bluff.


LG
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That's it Dairyflat, keep up the cause and get it some attention. It's election year, perhaps a good opportunity to e-mail politicians?
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Dome more than that. We've had a few face to face meetings. Some questions in the house but nothing has really moved...

Next time we do something public I'll let you all know. No... no... don't thank me. It'll be my pleasure....  
LG
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After the way half the country sucked up to Zowie whom I believe should not have even left the terminal before being shipped back, maybe this cause is a much more worthy one. From what you have said, questions need to be asked and answered by those participants. Lonegunmen2008-01-29 19:44:14

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