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Discipline in YOUR team...

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Profile pic. Should you be interested. Lakhsen, on the right, lost touch with him.
Mohammed, on the left, I'm still in touch with. He's now living in Agadez, Niger. More focused on his animals now as tourism has dried up. Is active with a co-op promoting local goods, leather work and bijouterie, into Europe.
20/5/20

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Just been having a chat with a friend. He was telling me that at the weekend he watched a player twice in a few minutes use an elbow on an opponent. He said that when he spoke to the offender's team the reply was that he "usually did something every week".

We were curious about what other teams do with situations like this? If you have a bad one in your team what do you do with them? Ignore it? Tell them to go? Manage it?

dairyflat2009-07-20 12:28:00

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

who would know? we have a player who has 7 yellow cards all for "talking" to the reff! no matter how many times we tell him to shut it he doesnt, some people cant be told

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Managers.coaches and other club officials have a responsibility as much as referees. Too often everyone just expects the ref to sort things out. As all players know, the ref cannot see everything or be everywhere. Players who continually foul and swear should be taken off, given fines, given the push.

In many games the most experienced football people at the game are the former players now managing/coaching, and they know what is right and wrong and should take responsibility for it. As a young player I was fortunate to have good guidance from coaches who would not tolerate players getting carded for abuse or foul play (mistakes and stuff ups were poiinted out but tolerated and then corrected for future games).

There is a difference between people playing hard and physical but honestly who occaisionally get it wrong and those players who deliberately do this stuff. Football is a physical game and no-one minds players who get it wrong now and again, get booked and sent off for it (fair go) but apologise and shake hands with players after,,,,but we have no time for people who just use violence and aggro on purpose and who often taunt opposing players on top of that!

So what do clubs do in their policies??

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

dairyflat wrote:

We were curious about what other teams do with situations like this? If you have a bad one in your team what do you do with them? Ignore it? Tell them to go? Manage it?

We, as University are a pretty decent side. That is, we usually get beaten up more than anything. However, I've witnessed a few ridiculous incidents over the last few years. Something like players sliding 15 seconds late and going straight for the knee, or high-studded challenges against keepers. We had a guy this year taking out our keeper, twice. And the second time our keeper gave him the hard word and he had the guts to go up to him and argue. He genuinely thought that he was in the right.

Sadly I must say that 80% of the times when players lack discipline it's because of the refree's unwillingness to take action. They are not afraid of getting booked or even sent off. This only encourages players to use all the tricks in the book, good or bad, to get a result.

And I've never seen a team mate or coach tell one of their players to go. At the end of the day you're after the result, so even if you think that you team mate has crossed the line, unless the ref sends him off, you won't say a thing..it's only natural.

I really think violence and intimidation are real issues in football. Don't get me wrong, I love the physicality of it all, but there is a fine line which is often crossed during games. Refrees receive better training and should be able to tell the difference between a "normal" foul, and one that is aimed at hurting or intimidating a player. There should be a lot more cards pulled out I think.

VUW AFC - Victoria University Football for life

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

newzealandpower wrote:

And the second time our keeper gave him the hard word and he had the guts to go up to him and argue. He genuinely thought that he was in the right.[/QUOTE]

In the lower divisions I find that a lot of players and those that ref don't know the rules accurately. I get really annoyed when someone uses the "I was going for the ball" defence when they have just slid with two feet up, late and from behind.

[QUOTE=newzealandpower]

Sadly I must say that 80% of the times when players lack discipline it's because of the refree's unwillingness to take action.

One game in a space of 5mins there could have 2 sendings off with a stricter ref (two really late tackles and another that would have made Roy Keane blush). Seems to be this teams culture, been the same in previous years. Whenever they ref nothing really gets called, seems that ignorance breeds ignorance.

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Lower Grade so we have to ref ourselves. we have sent players from the field to cool off for 10 mins. havent had anything more serious than a couple of guys pushing and shoving each other and 10 mins on side lines has worked

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Just a point - and spread the word 'I was going for the ball/ I got the ball' is not a defence and does not negate whether the tackle was careless/reckless/dangerous.

So the next time someone gets booked for a tackle - and they argue 'But I got the ball Ref' - they are in the wrong - it does not matter in the slightest if you got the ball or not -but whether the tackle was careless/reckless/dangerous.

I think the team captain has a bit of responsibility here (although it all depends on the teams overall nature & mentality), but if you have one nutter in a team of sane players, then the captain should be having a word, before the the ref needs to take action, but I suggest if the ref has pinged him for a FK or two - but hasn't yet booked him - then the captain should be thinking about having a word with his player - telling him to wind his neck in.

When Hibs, went up, to win the Scottish Cup - I wisnae there - furfuxake!

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Founder

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

It would help if the good refs were occasionally sent out to the lower divisions. Many teams have no experience at all of being properly refed. The refs when they do this can use the pre game to point out some key rules they will be looking for and use chat in the game to explain decisions.

Having said that, I have seen some very good refing at lower league games with experienced players with good control both allowing games to flow and pulling up bad actions. And their task made easier by cooperative teams wanting a good social game.

There are many teams like NewZealandPowers university team who play the right way and work with the opposition and whoever refs to ensure a good game. The problems come with some teams where the culture isnt right and poor behaviour is condoned even encouraged by team officials, where cheating in many forms creeps in. Send the good refs to their games for a week or two!! (Most of us know who these teams are).

The arguement against is that we dont have enough good experienced refs and the top divisions need their skills.......

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Orpewise wrote:

It would help if the good refs were occasionally sent out to the lower divisions. Many teams have no experience at all of being properly refed.

Many teams in Central League would say the same.

Incredible stamina. No shame. Yellow Fever.

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Orpewise wrote:

It would help if the good refs were occasionally sent out to the lower divisions. Many teams have no experience at all of being properly refed.

We sent a ref in Div 9 on Sat, after his Div 4 game was cancelled- it was bloody great and he was very good- ID number 077

took no stick, gave no cards, stopped the clock when ballw as kicked down bank, had a laugh

and, a particular bug bear of mine, knew that a player cannot be offside as long as the ball has not been played to him, i.e. it is not an offense in itself to be in an offside position

well done that man-

Salmon swim upstream

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Orpewise wrote:

I do like that idea, but as Smithy pointed out Refs are a very rare commodity. I do think that as a condition of submitting a team to play in the league, the team captain/s should attend a one day/evening course on the rules of the game and receive some material to take back to their team. Should be done every year.

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

$$$$ to do this would come from where?

I find that even our best, fairest ref gets hassled constantly from the opposition no matter what calls he does or does not make - reffing in lower divs is a scary prospect... and discipline wise, from all team in our grade there are teams who push everything to the absolute lletter of the law.

Queenslander 3x a year.

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

theprof wrote:

$$$$ to do this would come from where?

That's exactly my point. Don't get me wrong I think even Gandhi, after stepping on a football field, would become a total arse-hole! But you have to blame the ref's for not stepping up and keeping the game in their hands. I find myself, being a pretty honest player, that I end up fouling a lot more when the ref lets ugly takles go unpunished. It's a sort of "revenge thirst" which takes over people when they think that no punishment is being dished out to those who deserve it.

The best refs to me are those who talk to you before, during and after the game. They set a standard, "no tackles from behind, no matter how close you are to the ball", "keep your hands to yourself", "speak through your captain, if I hear a word you're getting a yellow". By saying things like this, and by making the rules be respected, they show the 2 teams that they are in charge, and that is best for everyone.

I don't have a great experience in refreeing, but I occasionally take up the whistle. Before the game starts I always say that I'm no professional so I'll call what I see. And during the game I call what I see. If it's an off-side vs the home team I will call it and then explain why I did it. Sometimes people shout at you and you just have to stand by your decisions. It wouldn't take too much for the standard of refrees to be increased.

newzealandpower2009-07-21 17:16:04

VUW AFC - Victoria University Football for life

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

newzealandpower wrote:

theprof wrote:

$$$$ to do this would come from where?

That's exactly my point.<snip>

It wouldn't take too much for the standard of refrees to be increased.

What would be a great start would be cutting back the abuse of refs, too many new refs are dropping out fairly quickly due to verbal abuse and threats of and even physical abuse.

I was gobsmacked to hear a couple of old timer refs (now inspectors) talk about incidents they had been kinghit, blindsided etc, obviously they must be fairly strong characters to have stayed in the game. But the most common reason for people to stop reffing is the abuse.

To get back to the point I highlighted, if there were more people reffing and staying in the game, you would have more likelyhood of there being a larger pool of 'better' refs - you'd also have refs down the grades getting experience there (Although the thought of reffing Cap 14 instead of Cap 1 makes my blood run cold!)
ginger_eejit2009-07-21 20:52:37

When Hibs, went up, to win the Scottish Cup - I wisnae there - furfuxake!

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

ginger_eejit wrote:

newzealandpower wrote:

theprof wrote:

$$$$ to do this would come from where?

That's exactly my point.<snip>

It wouldn't take too much for the standard of refrees to be increased.

What would be a great start would be cutting back the abuse of refs, too many new refs are dropping out fairly quickly due to verbal abuse and threats of and even physical abuse.

How can anyone disagree with that?! I'm totally with you, and to be honest I have made a great effort, year after year, to try and build a good relationship with refrees. The imput should come from players/clubs/coaches to show some real respect to those guys who, in the end, are just doing us a favour!

However, and I'm sorry if I sound boring, if refrees sent CONSTANTLY people off for foul language, intimidation, assassin tackles..if this became common, then people would watch themselves on the pitch. The example I always use is, if you were at the supermarket and someone called you a twat,piece of crap, arse-hole, etc, would you just let him go or would you get angry? it's the same for refs! There is nothing wrong with the usual: "aaaaw ref"! or "come on ref" or "Jesus, that's not offside" --> these are all complaints (which I use regularly) that explain how you feel about something. And refs should take them. But they should not look the other way when players abuse them or drop some tackles that would make Roy Kean blush.

It's all about changing the bad aspects of the game. In this regards we have so much to learn from rugby.

VUW AFC - Victoria University Football for life

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

newzealandpower wrote:

But at what point would you say "enough!"?

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

dairyflat wrote:

newzealandpower wrote:

But at what point would you say "enough!"?

I don't know mate, everyone has their own standards. When I refree a game I like to keep it under control: that means tackles, shoulders, a bit of pushing, all allowed..and nothing else. As I said before, if I see that someone is just being an arse or is dropping reckless tackles, I'll call the foul and have a word. And that's what I like in a ref, when they let the game go on, but then have the guts to blow the whistle when they feel that the game is getting out of hands.

I just don't understand how some tackles go unpunished every saturday. And I don't understand why some people are allowed to tell the ref to go f...k himself 10 times during a game, or even worse shove, headbutt or even punch the opposition without getting a card.

VUW AFC - Victoria University Football for life

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