Mainland Juniors (please play nice)

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Scottie Rd
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I think they have a much better chance of getting MPL before Waimak, if as stated on here the structures are in place as we have been told on here.

Better and quicker drive to get to training for anyone living on the west side of town say Riccarton out than playing at Bays, Coastal or CT.

Only Halswell would get a look in in that area.  Population about same as Rangiora  area could be more than in a year or two, would have a lot more younger families in Rolleston, only since EQs has it become the retirement venue that Rangiora and area has been for years.

Plus I'd rather see and go out to Selwyn to watch an MPL game than Waimak.  Only playing Bays away would be worse in the middle of winter at least Waimak have a club rooms of sorts to go to afterwards.

November 03, 2013 23:40
10cc
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Ronaldoknow wrote:
Messy10 wrote:
Stretford End wrote:

Messi wrote (on Mainland Premier thread)

And some of the youngsters coming through at Selwyn are very good & having the Burnley centre here , the kids in that will only improve

The future is looking good (as long as we hold onto them)

I agree Messi that outlying/growing clubs like Selwyn and Waimak are doing the right thing to offer an academy programme that is more accessible than FTC is for their local players.

The reality is that players will always move on seeking bigger and brighter opportunities. Club and coaches need to remember that we have a part to play - to help the player develop in the time they are with us. No-one owns the player

 

By the way , its Messy :-)

I know no one owns the player , what I was saying is that when (and it will happen) Selwyn get a team into the MPL that the majority team will hopefully consist of players who have come through the ranks


So if Waimak, who have been trying for considerably longer, haven't cracked it yet why would Selwyn fare any better?
 
Think their culture of winning at all and any cost will catch up with waimak sooner or later, if it hasn't already. Selwyn is very much focused on developing their players first, in the assumption that results will follow ......eventually. I know they are copping it from parents who want to see their Johnny win, but they are either slowly converting or buggering off to other clubs that are willing to stroke their ego for their own self interest in bolstering their own teams. 
Selwyn's playing style across the grades is way too nice (but lovely to watch for those that understand the beautiful game!) to win at the moment. But, it is easier to install a bit of gritt in kids that can play than it is to coach thugs how to actually play at the age of say 13 after they have only been 'coached' to 'win' through physicality and intimidation.
Therefore with new Southern motorway and new fully flood lit facilities in the pipeline expect plenty of players and parents to chose Selwyn as their club. 
November 04, 2013 07:23
Global Game
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When will foster park be the new base for selwyn?

November 04, 2013 07:33
Dragoon_nz
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Stretford End wrote:

When will foster park be the new base for selwyn?


Foster Park will have first fields open for the 2015 (we hope) season at this stage. But it won't be complete with most of it taking a few more years to complete.  Though when it is finished should have shared clubrooms, great facilities and fingers crossed a turf similar to english park. 
November 04, 2013 07:39
grizly
Trialist
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over 11 years
Scottie Rd wrote:

I think they have a much better chance of getting MPL before Waimak, if as stated on here the structures are in place as we have been told on here.

Better and quicker drive to get to training for anyone living on the west side of town say Riccarton out than playing at Bays, Coastal or CT.

Only Halswell would get a look in in that area.  Population about same as Rangiora  area could be more than in a year or two, would have a lot more younger families in Rolleston, only since EQs has it become the retirement venue that Rangiora and area has been for years.

Plus I'd rather see and go out to Selwyn to watch an MPL game than Waimak.  Only playing Bays away would be worse in the middle of winter at least Waimak have a club rooms of sorts to go to afterwards.


Selwyn have a club rooms, it called the Rock 

http://www.therockrolleston.co.nz


November 06, 2013 11:21 · Edited November 06, 2013 12:07
Global Game
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Stretford End wrote:

Sorry Ronaldoknow. My poor sentence construction. I understand both Halswell and FC intend sending teams. When I said sticking to their knitting I meant that they were developing their own club players and not trying to get a galactico team together.


Well turns out I was wrong on this one. Halswell calling for triallists for Auk U17 tournament.
Halswell U17 trial
November 06, 2013 12:17
BenchWarmer
WeeNix
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about 11 years

So what are people's thoughts on the fact the Nike Cup could be run the last weekend in January when a lot of players will still be on holiday or just coming back from holiday?

This will affect teams being able to train together throughout January when parents take their kids away.... Apparently Auckland won't be holding their round until end of Feb!

November 07, 2013 21:05
Ronaldoknow
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Will be interesting to see what happens here, will we see players chasing multiple clubs to go to the tournament? Who are the confirmed entrants so far?

November 07, 2013 21:07
10cc
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Ronaldoknow wrote:

Will be interesting to see what happens here, will we see players chasing multiple clubs to go to the tournament? Who are the confirmed entrants so far?


If they were not with club XX in 2013, they are ineligible to play for club XX's Nike Cup team in 2014. That was the rule last year at least.
Who knows what additional clauses have been put in this year to stop the club-hopping nonsense just for Nike cup.
That's why several kids joined Nomads this season (without actually playing for the club).
November 07, 2013 22:54 · Edited November 07, 2013 22:58
Ronaldoknow
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10cc wrote:
Ronaldoknow wrote:

Will be interesting to see what happens here, will we see players chasing multiple clubs to go to the tournament? Who are the confirmed entrants so far?


If they were not with club XX in 2013, they are ineligible to play for club XX's Nike Cup team in 2014. That was the rule last year at least.
Who knows what additional clauses have been put in this year to stop the club-hopping nonsense just for Nike cup.
That's why several kids joined Nomads this season (without actually playing for the club).
I thought the rule was if you were selected for the Nike Cup at a certain club you had to stay with them for the season? I didn't think it would prevent you changing clubs to get selected, just meant if you did you had to stay there?
November 07, 2013 23:21
10cc
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Ronaldoknow wrote:
10cc wrote:
Ronaldoknow wrote:

Will be interesting to see what happens here, will we see players chasing multiple clubs to go to the tournament? Who are the confirmed entrants so far?


If they were not with club XX in 2013, they are ineligible to play for club XX's Nike Cup team in 2014. That was the rule last year at least.
Who knows what additional clauses have been put in this year to stop the club-hopping nonsense just for Nike cup.
That's why several kids joined Nomads this season (without actually playing for the club).
I thought the rule was if you were selected for the Nike Cup at a certain club you had to stay with them for the season? I didn't think it would prevent you changing clubs to get selected, just meant if you did you had to stay there?

4.8. Players can only play, in the MUPC 2013, for the club with which they were last registered during the 2012 winter season (February – September).

4.8.1 Further having moved club during the 2012 winter season and played in the MUPC during the 2013 competition, the player must remain with that club for the duration of the 2013 winter season. 

4.8.2 Any request for transfer or matters regarding the eligibility of players to transfer will be at the sole discretion of NZF and made in accordance with NZF Regulations.

 

November 07, 2013 23:42
Ronaldoknow
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Cool thanks for that 10cc, wonder how Halswell will get on with their "open" trials then. Does the Nike Cup allow for guest players at all? I see those rules only apply to last year and this year, not 2014 so players are free to go wherever they like so long as they committ to that club for the season if the same rules apply?

November 08, 2013 07:19 · Edited November 08, 2013 07:22
Ronaldoknow
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The more I look at those rules the more holes I see in them. Look at the Div 1 debacle this year with Varsities and Utd. What are the rules around junior transfers?

If you read 4.8.2 it refers to NZF rules but pretty sure they have nothing specific on Nike Cup or any other tournament like this so possibly the local rules are a waste of time?

November 08, 2013 07:30
Global Game
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Halswell open trials are for U17 Auckland tournament. Probably couple of guest players in squad of 18.

November 08, 2013 08:01
Global Game
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Manchester United Premier Cup (ex Nike cup) allows for no guest players and as has been mentioned: you can't play in the cup for a different club than you represented in previous winter season (rule was brought in this year to take effect for 2014).
Only possible reason for January date is working back from finals date to Australasian playoffs to NZ (only ONE nz team I think) to wgtn/ central to sth island to Chch. Auk could be later as they prob don't have as many playoff rounds to complete.

November 08, 2013 08:12
BenchWarmer
WeeNix
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10cc wrote:
Ronaldoknow wrote:

Will be interesting to see what happens here, will we see players chasing multiple clubs to go to the tournament? Who are the confirmed entrants so far?


If they were not with club XX in 2013, they are ineligible to play for club XX's Nike Cup team in 2014. That was the rule last year at least.
Who knows what additional clauses have been put in this year to stop the club-hopping nonsense just for Nike cup.
That's why several kids joined Nomads this season (without actually playing for the club).

Once again 10cc you spout a lot of rubbish..... Please confirm who all these players that Nomads have signed up that didn't play this season..... Yes we all know about Joe Bell and this has been discussed before, but from your post, and the bit I have highlighted in bold, you suggest there are a lot more?
November 08, 2013 08:42
BenchWarmer
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Stretford End wrote:

Manchester United Premier Cup (ex Nike cup) allows for no guest players and as has been mentioned: you can't play in the cup for a different club than you represented in previous winter season (rule was brought in this year to take effect for 2014).
Only possible reason for January date is working back from finals date to Australasian playoffs to NZ (only ONE nz team I think) to wgtn/ central to sth island to Chch. Auk could be later as they prob don't have as many playoff rounds to complete.


The rule that was bought in last year was not followed through in it's entirety anyway.... I've heard of a couple of players from Coastal being allowed to move clubs and I know full well 2 players from Nomads were allowed to too.....

This season's format for deciding the NZ team to go through has changed once again.... The winners from CHCH will join another South Island team, 3 from Auckland/Northern region and 1 from Central/Capital to compete in a tournament in Auckland (Possibly end of March time?) with the Australasian Play Offs in Sydney in May 2014.......

Surely allowing teams a couple of extra weeks, playing the tournament in the middle of February, as per last year, will still allow further opportunities to be able to progress. As stated earlier, the Auckland qualifier, will not be taking place until the end of February... ok they don't need to worry about travel etc for the next round, but it's still nearly a month later! 
November 08, 2013 08:50
Global Game
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BenchWarmer wrote:
Stretford End wrote:

Manchester United Premier Cup (ex Nike cup) allows for no guest players and as has been mentioned: you can't play in the cup for a different club than you represented in previous winter season (rule was brought in this year to take effect for 2014).
Only possible reason for January date is working back from finals date to Australasian playoffs to NZ (only ONE nz team I think) to wgtn/ central to sth island to Chch. Auk could be later as they prob don't have as many playoff rounds to complete.


The rule that was bought in last year was not followed through in it's entirety anyway.... I've heard of a couple of players from Coastal being allowed to move clubs and I know full well 2 players from Nomads were allowed to too.....

This season's format for deciding the NZ team to go through has changed once again.... The winners from CHCH will join another South Island team, 3 from Auckland/Northern region and 1 from Central/Capital to compete in a tournament in Auckland (Possibly end of March time?) with the Australasian Play Offs in Sydney in May 2014.......

Surely allowing teams a couple of extra weeks, playing the tournament in the middle of February, as per last year, will still allow further opportunities to be able to progress. As stated earlier, the Auckland qualifier, will not be taking place until the end of February... ok they don't need to worry about travel etc for the next round, but it's still nearly a month later! 


"Rule was not followed through in it's entirety" Why is that not a surprise?
Format changed again...ditto
Chch teams to watch are Real Nomads Galacticos and eff...cee20
November 08, 2013 10:10
BenchWarmer
WeeNix
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about 11 years
Stretford End wrote:
BenchWarmer wrote:
Stretford End wrote:

Manchester United Premier Cup (ex Nike cup) allows for no guest players and as has been mentioned: you can't play in the cup for a different club than you represented in previous winter season (rule was brought in this year to take effect for 2014).
Only possible reason for January date is working back from finals date to Australasian playoffs to NZ (only ONE nz team I think) to wgtn/ central to sth island to Chch. Auk could be later as they prob don't have as many playoff rounds to complete.


The rule that was bought in last year was not followed through in it's entirety anyway.... I've heard of a couple of players from Coastal being allowed to move clubs and I know full well 2 players from Nomads were allowed to too.....

This season's format for deciding the NZ team to go through has changed once again.... The winners from CHCH will join another South Island team, 3 from Auckland/Northern region and 1 from Central/Capital to compete in a tournament in Auckland (Possibly end of March time?) with the Australasian Play Offs in Sydney in May 2014.......

Surely allowing teams a couple of extra weeks, playing the tournament in the middle of February, as per last year, will still allow further opportunities to be able to progress. As stated earlier, the Auckland qualifier, will not be taking place until the end of February... ok they don't need to worry about travel etc for the next round, but it's still nearly a month later! 


"Rule was not followed through in it's entirety" Why is that not a surprise?
Format changed again...ditto


What are you trying to say Stretford ;)
November 08, 2013 10:12
10cc
Phoenix Academy
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450
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about 11 years
BenchWarmer wrote:
Stretford End wrote:

Manchester United Premier Cup (ex Nike cup) allows for no guest players and as has been mentioned: you can't play in the cup for a different club than you represented in previous winter season (rule was brought in this year to take effect for 2014).
Only possible reason for January date is working back from finals date to Australasian playoffs to NZ (only ONE nz team I think) to wgtn/ central to sth island to Chch. Auk could be later as they prob don't have as many playoff rounds to complete.


The rule that was bought in last year was not followed through in it's entirety anyway.... I've heard of a couple of players from Coastal being allowed to move clubs and I know full well 2 players from Nomads were allowed to too.....

This season's format for deciding the NZ team to go through has changed once again.... The winners from CHCH will join another South Island team, 3 from Auckland/Northern region and 1 from Central/Capital to compete in a tournament in Auckland (Possibly end of March time?) with the Australasian Play Offs in Sydney in May 2014.......

Surely allowing teams a couple of extra weeks, playing the tournament in the middle of February, as per last year, will still allow further opportunities to be able to progress. As stated earlier, the Auckland qualifier, will not be taking place until the end of February... ok they don't need to worry about travel etc for the next round, but it's still nearly a month later! 


So last year the rules were broken / not followed through in it's entirity  / players allegedly allowed to move.... The point of rules therefore is what?
I'd be surprised (or would I / anyone ???) if MF is going to be entertaining too much nonsense coming season considering the mare they had this year with Div 1 etc. Nike Cup is ruled and administered by NZF, so MF's involvement is limited to monitoring the player movements etc locally. 
November 08, 2013 10:12
10cc
Phoenix Academy
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about 11 years
Ronaldoknow wrote:

The more I look at those rules the more holes I see in them. Look at the Div 1 debacle this year with Varsities and Utd. What are the rules around junior transfers?

If you read 4.8.2 it refers to NZF rules but pretty sure they have nothing specific on Nike Cup or any other tournament like this so possibly the local rules are a waste of time?


These are the actual specific Nike Cup rules for this year just gone. Looks like there were either not enforced or some creativity applied to circumvent them. NZF administers the Nike Cup rules on behalf of Man U, Mainland are supposed to be NZF's agent here in Christchurch.
Spot the weak link in the chain??
November 08, 2013 10:41
BenchWarmer
WeeNix
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Some of the rules were administered to, but there was also players we know that were definately allowed to move on.... However, they were only allowed to move because they had been at their Nike Cup team for a 'number of seasons' and hadn't just moved to play in the cup (which I think essentially is what they are trying to stop).

There does need to be consistency across the board though, either they can move, or they can't move!

November 08, 2013 11:27
VimFuego
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about 17 years

I know of one parent who was so pissed off when Mainland refused to transfer their kid to another club mid-season because he had played for the initial club in the Nike Cup that he threatened to involve a lawyer!

Which begs the question, where is the legal standpoint in locking in a 14 year old into what is effectively a contract when probably no paperwork has been done by parent or kid?

But in the bigger picture, I hate the idea of players changing clubs and playing for Nike then changing again. 

November 08, 2013 15:03
gings
First Team Squad
13
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1.7K
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about 17 years

some interesting stuff coming up in the junior delegates stuff for weds meeting:


·  Leagues make up (after 2013 promotion relegation), also looking at a new 16th Grade league, combining 17th and 18th Grade to 18th Grade and introducing U23 League to replace U21 league.


Certain clubs wanting to discuss/change U21 League, Schools v Clubs, Sunday and Church Leagues use of CCC grounds, and CCC services (mowing and marking), PDL, 11th Grade, promotion relegation in youth and juniors, and FDO hours in clubs


sounds like the kind of meeting you'll wanna bring pop corn to and just enjoy the show

November 08, 2013 15:25 · Edited November 08, 2013 15:26
Global Game
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gings wrote:

some interesting stuff coming up in the junior delegates stuff for weds meeting:


·  Leagues make up (after 2013 promotion relegation), also looking at a new 16th Grade league, combining 17th and 18th Grade to 18th Grade and introducing U23 League to replace U21 league.


Certain clubs wanting to discuss/change U21 League, Schools v Clubs, Sunday and Church Leagues use of CCC grounds, and CCC services (mowing and marking), PDL, 11th Grade, promotion relegation in youth and juniors, and FDO hours in clubs


sounds like the kind of meeting you'll wanna bring pop corn to and just enjoy the show



Live podcast? live tweeting?
November 08, 2013 15:49
10cc
Phoenix Academy
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450
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about 11 years
gings wrote:

some interesting stuff coming up in the junior delegates stuff for weds meeting:


·  Leagues make up (after 2013 promotion relegation), also looking at a new 16th Grade league, combining 17th and 18th Grade to 18th Grade and introducing U23 League to replace U21 league.


Certain clubs wanting to discuss/change U21 League, Schools v Clubs, Sunday and Church Leagues use of CCC grounds, and CCC services (mowing and marking), PDL, 11th Grade, promotion relegation in youth and juniors, and FDO hours in clubs


sounds like the kind of meeting you'll wanna bring pop corn to and just enjoy the show


Pop Corn = passive and ain't gonna change things. Most of your posts have got a lot of constructive thinking and dialogue going.
So here's one; get off the couch and laptop, get around to the meeting and be heard where it may make a difference!
November 08, 2013 18:09
gings
First Team Squad
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1.7K
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about 17 years
10cc wrote:
gings wrote:

some interesting stuff coming up in the junior delegates stuff for weds meeting:


·  Leagues make up (after 2013 promotion relegation), also looking at a new 16th Grade league, combining 17th and 18th Grade to 18th Grade and introducing U23 League to replace U21 league.


Certain clubs wanting to discuss/change U21 League, Schools v Clubs, Sunday and Church Leagues use of CCC grounds, and CCC services (mowing and marking), PDL, 11th Grade, promotion relegation in youth and juniors, and FDO hours in clubs


sounds like the kind of meeting you'll wanna bring pop corn to and just enjoy the show


Pop Corn = passive and ain't gonna change things. Most of your posts have got a lot of constructive thinking and dialogue going.
So here's one; get off the couch and laptop, get around to the meeting and be heard where it may make a difference!


Thanks man. Who says I won't be there...?
November 08, 2013 18:29
10cc
Phoenix Academy
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450
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about 11 years
gings wrote:
10cc wrote:
gings wrote:

some interesting stuff coming up in the junior delegates stuff for weds meeting:


·  Leagues make up (after 2013 promotion relegation), also looking at a new 16th Grade league, combining 17th and 18th Grade to 18th Grade and introducing U23 League to replace U21 league.


Certain clubs wanting to discuss/change U21 League, Schools v Clubs, Sunday and Church Leagues use of CCC grounds, and CCC services (mowing and marking), PDL, 11th Grade, promotion relegation in youth and juniors, and FDO hours in clubs


sounds like the kind of meeting you'll wanna bring pop corn to and just enjoy the show


Pop Corn = passive and ain't gonna change things. Most of your posts have got a lot of constructive thinking and dialogue going.
So here's one; get off the couch and laptop, get around to the meeting and be heard where it may make a difference!


Thanks man. Who says I won't be there...?

Cool - I'll look out for the popcorn!

November 08, 2013 19:28
shushy6
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WeeNix
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about 11 years
gings wrote:

Thanks man. Who says I won't be there...?


The new Mainland Football regulation that states no orange beards within 200 feet of ASB stadium might just do it...
November 08, 2013 20:43
Ronaldoknow
Starting XI
120
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2.7K
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about 17 years
10cc wrote:
gings wrote:

some interesting stuff coming up in the junior delegates stuff for weds meeting:


·  Leagues make up (after 2013 promotion relegation), also looking at a new 16th Grade league, combining 17th and 18th Grade to 18th Grade and introducing U23 League to replace U21 league.


Certain clubs wanting to discuss/change U21 League, Schools v Clubs, Sunday and Church Leagues use of CCC grounds, and CCC services (mowing and marking), PDL, 11th Grade, promotion relegation in youth and juniors, and FDO hours in clubs


sounds like the kind of meeting you'll wanna bring pop corn to and just enjoy the show


Pop Corn = passive and ain't gonna change things. Most of your posts have got a lot of constructive thinking and dialogue going.
So here's one; get off the couch and laptop, get around to the meeting and be heard where it may make a difference!
That's all well and good for those that are invited but they must represent the clubs view as delegates, not their own personal one like on this forum although sometimes they are one and the same I suspect?
November 08, 2013 21:45
gings
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about 17 years
shushy6 wrote:
gings wrote:

Thanks man. Who says I won't be there...?


The new Mainland Football regulation that states no orange beards within 200 feet of ASB stadium might just do it...



wish I could grow one of those!
November 09, 2013 05:11
foal30
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such modesty!

November 09, 2013 11:13
moyyim
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34
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almost 11 years

Anyone have experience of Tim Bush (Ex Mainland) as a Coach ?...Just wondered about his approach/style now he's with Capital Football.

Cheers

November 09, 2013 11:30
shushy6
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WeeNix
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about 11 years
moyyim wrote:

Anyone have experience of Tim Bush (Ex Mainland) as a Coach ?...Just wondered about his approach/style now he's with Capital Football.

Cheers


I give him top marks for style. Always dressed to impress is our Tim. :)
 As a coach educator, I rate him highly. Actual coaching, my knowledge is limited so I cant really say, although he did run the girls academy (pre FTC days). He is a top chap, even if he does support Chelsea.
 
November 09, 2013 12:24
gings
First Team Squad
13
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1.7K
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about 17 years
shushy6 wrote:
moyyim wrote:

Anyone have experience of Tim Bush (Ex Mainland) as a Coach ?...Just wondered about his approach/style now he's with Capital Football.

Cheers


I give him top marks for style. Always dressed to impress is our Tim. :)

 As a coach educator, I rate him highly. Actual coaching, my knowledge is limited so I cant really say, although he did run the girls academy (pre FTC days). He is a top chap, even if he does support Chelsea.

 



Have to agree he's top notch and will be an asset to CF
November 09, 2013 13:54
Ray Hicks
Phoenix Academy
120
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250
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about 12 years

moyyim wrote:

Anyone have experience of Tim Bush (Ex Mainland) as a Coach ?...Just wondered about his approach/style now he's with Capital Football.

Cheers

Don't rate him at all: words like "pompous" and "arrogant" come to mind. As for his coaching "philosophy"; well if it isn't derived from a manual he seems to lack any kind of football nous ...a whiteboard warrior. As a person and as a coach educator i have no idea. My assessment is centred around his hands on coaching. 
November 09, 2013 13:56
Global Game
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Hey moyyim, I'm on ray's side for this one. Tim has tickets on himself as a coach. He'll tell you he's very good; and comes across in a pretty authoritarian manner on the park with the kids (expect a whiteboard on the side of the pitch). Hasn't actually coached a boys team for some years.

November 09, 2013 15:30
10cc
Phoenix Academy
78
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450
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about 11 years
Ray Hicks wrote:

moyyim wrote:

Anyone have experience of Tim Bush (Ex Mainland) as a Coach ?...Just wondered about his approach/style now he's with Capital Football.

Cheers

Don't rate him at all: words like "pompous" and "arrogant" come to mind. As for his coaching "philosophy"; well if it isn't derived from a manual he seems to lack any kind of football nous ...a whiteboard warrior. As a person and as a coach educator i have no idea. My assessment is centred around his hands on coaching. 

If you've got nothing nice to say, say nothing - but agree 100% with Ray ! 

 

November 09, 2013 16:59
shushy6
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WeeNix
68
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520
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about 11 years
Stretford End wrote:

Hey moyyim, I'm on ray's side for this one. Tim has tickets on himself as a coach. He'll tell you he's very good; and comes across in a pretty authoritarian manner on the park with the kids (expect a whiteboard on the side of the pitch). Hasn't actually coached a boys team for some years.


Well he never told me how good he was. All the boys who went to the Japan Cup with him and Paul this year seemed to really enjoy it and had a lot of fun. Did he piss you off somehow a long time ago?
November 09, 2013 22:44
Ronaldoknow
Starting XI
120
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2.7K
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about 17 years

Totally disagree with the character assassination of Tim Bush going on here but concede he is not top of the pops as a coach of young players, good intent but failed to deliver imo. In the same ilk as Mike DeBono who also left Mainland for Capital Football. Makes you wonder about the standard of coaching in Wellington, I see this as another opportunity for Mainland to improve the quality of the staff coaches, Tsetso next FDO?

November 10, 2013 09:42
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