Mainland Juniors (please play nice)

I watched Mike and Tim run some FTC trials the other day up here. I thought they were both great.

Have high hopes.

Disclaimer: I was on the Board of CF when they hired Mike.

I watched Mike and Tim run some FTC trials the other day up here. I thought they were both great.

Have high hopes.

Disclaimer: I was on the Board of CF when they hired Mike

Exactly! And this is the beauty of football: everyone has their own opinions that are more or less, equally valid. The criticism/praise for Tim Bush centres around his COACHING ability, nothing more. The comment about " character assasination " is bizarre: compare these comments to those about Declan Edge on this forum. He's frequently referred to as an "idiot", a "dick" etc. Nobody is doing that here. However, I do agree about Tsetso being a good choice for a FDO job: always thought his training sessions were excellent, and he may be better suited to a staff coaching role.

Thanks for the opinions...

As CF have revamped theit FTC to be year round, no Gold groups and possibly get a new coach who I have no experience of was thinking of future choices...Ole or FTC ?...which  also lead to me this thread

http://www.yellowfever.co.nz/categories/regional-football-powered-by-park-life/topics/34587

I also watched  some of the FTC trials (years 99, 2000, 2001)..TBH I couldnt form an opinion on the coaches I didnt recognize, as being a trial  the kids were mostly playing with minimal instruction/input from the coaches....

I do wonder about the new format...The 99's squad is 38 players( inc 6 keepers) , with a squad of 19 (2 x teams inc 3 x keepers) surely match days will be devalued due to  lack of game time etc.

Is the reasoning for this squad size to stop anyone falling through the cracks ?.....Best interests of the players ?    Sloppiness by the selectors  ?.....Revenue ? .....Other ?

Ive already heard of one talented  player who is likely choosing Ole over FTC & wouldnt be surprised to see more....So lets throw another question out there

Ole or FTC ?.....Thoughts

Cheers

U23 league? No point in that at all.

Adding a 16s and combining 17-18s long overdue.

Tim Bush? My comments refer primarily to his delivery style, not content. Plenty of people grow, learn and modify behavior all the time.

FTC and private academies - should be room for both so more kids get better football education. Each player will choose the environment that seems best for their development - as it should be.

Someone not from Coastal would be a change! Alan, Koresh, Mike, Paul, Gareth whose next on board the Mainland Express?

Tsetso does have a mind of his own, might challenge things too much. 

Tsetso is the new king-maker, is he not?
Channel to Mainland's new sugar daddy.

We're in the wrong thread here, but...the change up makes sense to me. In the younger age groups, the top "Gold" group was too small (16 outfield players) to capture all the talent, but the next level down ("Regional") was preposterously large, so you had a handful of decent players who missed the Gold cutoff playing with a whole swathe of very poor players in each region. This change brings those players inside the Gold group. I don't think it will water down the talent much at the Gold level in the younger age groups.

In the older age groups where the talent thins out a bit they've kept the top group I think.

Yep a number of kids will always choose not to do FTC. That's not new. Kids have been doing it for years. Most will though.

As far as I'm aware there's been no progress towards any kind of accreditation. I don't really see much value in it myself unless they're going to genuinely licence and monitor providers. Which, let's be honest, they don't have the skills or personnel or resources to do.

Smithies post talks about a "Gold" group - never heard of anything like that in Chch. So where does Whole of Football (Nationwide) start and finish? Is it an overarching philosophy/structure by name only, and there are many variations implemented nationwide to suit?

Mainland (as other Feds) may prefer not to have private providers in its own back yard, but Burnley will be sending a small number of players to their academy in Perth early next year. No promises made, but if good enough will have a chance to then go on to the UK in April. I understand at least one of the ones identified did trial for FTC but missed out. That can happen for a number of reasons, but point is that another opportunity provided = one less chance of a kid with potential falling through the cracks of the system. 

Where are all the APFA players heading when they close up shop? Back to FTC? Believe Burnley program is near full so unless players trialled and accepted a place, they may well have few options left.

Big variation in how FTC's run across country.

Big variations on implementation of WOF. Very structured and competitive 12th grade in Auckland

No Junior All Whites from our FTC or Mainland Academies (maybe Yamamoto) a few more from the private providers though.

Arrogance personified to think FTC the only way.

Really interesting to see how similar the issues in this thread are with Auckland youth football.

In terms of private providers, the WYNR Academy dominates up here. In the case of Auckland FTC 1998s, the majority of the WYNR boys have pulled out of the FTC. Will be interesting to see the comparision between the various FTC programs around the country at the National Tournament in Wellington next month. 

In terms of structure, there are very competitive metro grades (combination of Northern Football and Auckland Football best club teams) from 13th to 15th and 17th grades in 2013. The 13/14th grades played on Saturdays after 12pm and older grades on Sunday. School football is played on Saturdays morning apart from the two premier divisions who kick off at 12pm.

IMO the biggest issue is the amount of training that occurs if they are playing club and school. Kids can have up to 4 sessions at school, two for club and one for FTC during the season.

Mainland FTC insist on 2 sessions a week during season  and I think it goes up to 3 during off season. Don't know what sort of curriculum, whether local or nationally driven.

Does not seem to be much emphasis on team play here, particularly defensive responsibilities. Might change as they prepare teams for Wellington.

Costs seem to vary a lot. $800 plus in Mainland (Christchurch) I believe, plus NTC regional camp costs $400 plus and I imagine the Wellington trip will cost also, throw in the Sth. Island Tournament costs another $400 and it makes a club sub seem very reasonable for a season's football.   

• Average club player (not a rep player with extra tournament trainings): Your $100-150 club sub gets you on average 18 weeks of "team" football training 1 night a week when it's not rained off (2 nights if you're in a Div 1 league); plus maybe 4 weeks pre-season. If you are a Div 1 player training twice a week (and you might train indoors sometimes when grounds are closed) you probably get 40 training sessions a year. Let's assume you don't have any extra rep/tournament stuff.
  

• FTC player: trains 2/3 times a week 45 weeks a year; and training is rarely called off as it on the turf.
• Generally you are training with a better group of players (not always, but mostly)
  
• Definitely individually focused - and team play becomes an issue when a group discovers they have 12 central midfielders and a striker and a couple of defenders. This is an area where significant improvement is required.
  
• Mostly (not always) the FTC player will also have South Island rep tournament, Inter Federation Talent centre tournament, National Age Group Talent Centre tournament; plus club tournaments; and the very good ones have National Talent Centres on top of all that.
• An average FTC player will get something like 120+ sessions plus 40 club sessions per year; ie 4 times as much as average club player; so that $750 FTC sub suddenly seems a reasonable comparison to a $140 club sub.
• Private academies - Burnley, APFA - are a whole different ball game

So really, there is NO COMPARISON, from a development perspective, between your average club-only player and your average FTC player, is there? 

PS I applaud the clubs that are motivated to find the resource to do extra stuff for players not doing FTC for any reason, by the way.

My point is it, the cost in total ($1500 - $2000, is expensive and in comparison the good club player gets good value for his / her $130 in comparison. Those with good clubs with their own programmes get very good value. Much of what is done at FTC a determined young player can reproduce with some direction, a ball, a mate and a rebound surface. There are also fundamental learning opportunities in school and recreational play at no cost. Interesting only one session a week in Auckland! More time with their club / school teams. 16 players out of the Auckland region in the last U17's. How many from Canterbury.

As regards development well my argument is that from what I see coming off the end (if they stick with it that long), the programme (FTC) is simply not producing players with a sound all round game and poor game understanding. In my opinion the outcome is not worthy of the investment. After 4 years the results should be much better. The selection process and programme, as all of us who work with those on the programme know, is flawed as, I note, you agree. Surely we are looking to produce quality defenders who understand defending as individuals and in a unit as well as midfielders who can work equally well without the ball as with it, players with an overall understanding of their positional responsibilities within a team.

The game understanding of our current crop at the age of 15 is far inferior to those produced in the past, both recent and distant.

NTC games with players being played completely out of position in front of national selectors is not the way for us to get players national recognition. It instead tends to highlight their deficiencies, which they point out and our coaches then do nothing about. Selecting 12 midfielders of the same age whilst not recognising the potential of an equal number of defenders and at least 6 strikers is just nonsense. Putting such teams on the park after what the players and their families have invested is criminal.

If this is the only way to get national recognition in Canterbury then heaven help our game and more fool those who believe they have a chance.

My understanding is that APFA identify positional potential and work on the whole package that is why they succeeded where this programme fails and will continue to do so.

Denying players working in bona fide programmes in New Zealand, but outside the FTC, the opportunity to play internationally is ludicrous.

A great waste of a very good park where we should see more well promoted top level club / school senior, youth and junior football mid week. Most of what they do at FTC they could do on the area behind the goal. 

The problem for clubs with all these FTC's/Academies etc is finding a time to get players together to train if you have a squad of players that are involved in a number of different avenues.

We had an issue last season whereby there was only about a 1 hour slot available which suited the majority of players.... This was all good for those involved in these academies and was vital for bringing teams together, but those that weren't involved didn't get as much work done and was something that could be improved upon.

All good points, not to mention the confusion created by the multiple coach scenario where a player may experience 4 - 5 coaches all with differing capabilities during the course of a season. 

The answer to Auckland dominated national age group squads could be argued on a population basis combined with the opportunity to train and play against higher quality players given that population differential. Still doesn't explain why we currently contribute no players to the U17 boys. This anomaly is surely highlighted by the number of local girls in the U17's and 20's lately who have predominantly come from a club based approach to player development working predominantly with one to two coaches at minimal cost. Food for thought.

I think also the powers that be may be getting their wires crossed when it comes to player pathways. My experience is that there is no singular answer that works for all players. Often it is a case of attitude meeting opportunity. When I see what a small group of girls locally have been able to achieve driven by their own desire and a supportive environment I am amazed that the powers that be have failed to recognise the faults in their own FTC/NTC pathway that rigidly opposes "organic" development and indeed seeks to restrict it by an inflexible dictatorial approach to pathways based on supporting budgets. I have never considered competition between a regional body and it's member clubs a) as the best model for pathways and b) as the best use of resources. Stress kills, and conflict causes stress. Sort the conflict, remove the stress and the pathway will thrive, the only limitation being a players desire encouraged by all and not buried in beauracracy.

Didn't that defender chappie from Blackburn Rovers say once that the biggest obstacle to player development in NZ is the federations?

Ryan  Nelson! Thats the fella!

Cannot be certain but can guarantee his Southern region camps cost him nothing, although he did supply a billet. I doubt there was much of a financial commitment needed from any of the players then. I believe even the Inter region Tournament was free.

Yes and they have been coming here for 150 years plus. Unfortunately you do not see too many locals with any ideas and certainly not the balls to stand up and actually do something about it. A few Dutch, Greek, Hungarian, Australian and even the odd Bulgarian and Froggie but so few locals.

Certainly there are those that have only coached from the grandstands before coming over, at least they bring the experience of seeing the game played at a reasonable level. They generally also bring the desire to see their off spring (young Kiwis) enjoy the game their ancestors started 150 years ago last month.  

Latest news RE Nike Cup:

To date there are 8 teams with a 9th still to confirm who are interested in entering the Nike Cup..

Nelson Suburbs, Richmond Athletic, FC Nelson

Cashmere Technical, Coastal Spirit, FC TWENTY 11, Halswell United, Nomads United and a question mark over Waimak.

Based on Waimak entering:

There will be a Mainland Football play off on Saturday 1st March and Sunday 2nd March which will consist of two Nelson teams

and four Christchurch teams.

Nelson teams find two teams to travel to Christchurch on Saturday 1st and 2nd March, this to be known as the Nelson Play offs.

Christchurch finds four teams for play offs 1st and 2nd March, this to be known as Christchurch play offs.

Nelson dates to be decided.

Christchurch play off dates are over two weekends, six teams, one round robin top four into Mainland Football play offs.

All games at ASB Football Park having to work around Canterbury United, draw and times to be confirmed.

Saturday 15th February two games each team.

Sunday 16th February one game each team

Saturday 22nd February two games each team.

Mainland Football play offs to find two to go to Auckland for National play offs on 15th and 16th March

Pool A three teams, Pool B three teams.

Pool A top Nelson team, 2nd Christchurch team, 3rd Christchurch team

Pool B top Christchurch team, 2nd Nelson team, 4th Christchurch team

Saturday 1st March 

Round robin two games each

Sunday 2nd March

Pool A winner v Pool B second

Pool B winner v Pool A second

Two winners progress to Auckland.

I have no problem with him running his programme, neither do I anybody else. We have and have had more players playing professionally overseas than a lot of people realise. Per head of population we might be close to Aussie. A few found opportunities through Wynton. A lot more through Fallon. Many through other programmes including NZ footballs. Some found their own way.

There are a number of people with connections not just Wynton and many go out of their way to give our youngsters overseas opportunities. 

Look at the varying paths of the current and recent All Whites playing  on and off shore.

Smithy was in a NZ National Academy group at the age of 12, went to the UK (Ipswich)at 14, played for England in age group teams (played against NZ I think)

Rory similarly,actually declined the opportunity to play for his Dad's NZ side in the '99 Under 17's World Cup selected and played for England at 17's and 20's.

Leo similarly declined age group selection NZ selection wanted to try to play for Greece. Played over there came back off to Aussie and back.  

Chris Wood played in the Waikato identified by Roger Wilkinson (Premier Skills) sent to West Brom.

Winston Under 12's in Northland then off to Scandinavia.

Others progressed through the colleges. Elliott, Nelsen, Brown, Clapham etc.

I could go on and on. They all have their own story.

New Zealand Football believe they do their best to take advantage of the age group World Cup opportunities. Unfortunately currently only works for those living in the North. Surely our major concern locally.

That wont change until those currently running our game locally wake up or are woken up. They have blanked Burnley and failed to develop a relationship with APFA. Instead they will send poorly selected representative FTC teams to Wellington.

Interesting point maybe.   Check the top of The Mainland Site.  Apparently Mid Canty, Marlborough, Nelson, West Coast all have a voice

Canterbury clubs apparently not. We are expected to feed on what they dictate.

Our Junior Delegate has advised that Mainland have stated there will be a 16th Grade next season with the 17th & 18th Grade merging into one

I guess he's talking about boys. Girls will be dependent on whether there is enough players for that grade, that's the only reason why there wasn't one this year.

As Vim said I'm only aware of the boys... Not saying it won't happen for girls, but I'm unsure

Piss poor gossip effort from last night's meeting boys and girls. Lift your games.

I agree.  Give us some gossip from last night's meeting.  What was the school vs club talk? And Sunday and Church using grounds? That's an old chestnut.

With Uni coming up to MPL and FC20 going down, Uni get a PDL team right? So who drops out of PDL? Fc20? chch Utd? lowest finisher of non MPL club? I've never known how this league works.While someone is answering that - do you know if there are ANY age restriction in this league anymore?