Alternative Wellington Stadium

No one wants to use Eden Park. Cricket are happy to go to Western Springs, the Warriors want zero part of Eden Park and football is happy to go where ever which is not saying much cause there are zero games. 

For about 8 home games at Eden Park for the blues, 2 football games, 3 games of cricket, and a couple of Warriors gigs, a couple of AB games plus 9s, its not a high use stadium itself. Thats not because of location, but because of the stupid cost which went up after they renovated the joint to pay off the interest. For some $400m, they would have gotten a better stadium on the waterfront which was the Eden Park reno cost I think. They should have levelled the fudgeing thing as fast possible and let the residents have their little suburb. A waterfront stadium was always the best way to go for every rectangular shaped sport and would have justified Lens loopy train set too. Parking, transport access, entertainment amenities..... It had it all. 

Sorry forgot the ITM Cup which is another 6 games or something.

I'm sure this discussion keeps going around in circles.

Yeah I posted this idea before but people seemed to miss the point thinking that I was talking about extending the stands rather than completely replacing them with brand new structures, the existing stands would still be part of the building, just hidden and potentially not used. The conversation will go around in circles indefinitely because we all know that the only things to happen will be continued improvement of food offerings, new external cladding, the ability for kids to run on the pitch, and if we're really lucky other coloured seats. None of which is addressing the issue.

When you build it you could rotate the pitch 90 degrees, put up Hutt Rec type temporary stands on one side and build the new stands on the other, therefore still using the existing stadium during construction at a greately reduced capacity.

Like the shape of our stadium?

Like Benji with a ball.

With those new stands being built closer to the pitch, they could possibly build them to support a roof (which the current structure can't support).

What sort of crouds do people think we would get if we had the perfect stadium? Are there another 3,000 people who would regularly come to games because we had a perfect stadium? I don't think it would be worth spending 150 million dollars to get extra supporters to some of the teams. If you are going to spend more money on the stadium then rent will have to go up.

They could have built a down town stadium in Auckland but it would have come with similar problems. It probably would have been 60,000 capacity so then it looks crap when you have Blues and Warriors games. Also Eden Park renovation apparently cost $256 million.

Overall Westpac Stadium has been pretty good for Wellington. The Stadium was used on 56 days for  public events last year and then you can add on weddings and functions. The stadium actually makes a good surplus each year of about 2 million dollars. The stadium does what the council wants it do: it attracts events to Wellington so there is no incentive for them to do any upgrades to the stadium because any upgrades probably won't increase that surplus.

I think there are around 1000 who don't go because of 'cavernous stadium syndrome' but a number of those would just find another excuse not to go.

I think the drivers are more around saleability of the experience which was clearly much better at the Rec than at Westpac but also the financial beneifts of owning your own place.  No rentals to stadium, a larger cut of catering, corporates and merchandise and a chance to make your own decisions about these things.

MLS has thrived since the majority of clubs moved to their own venues because they are not trying to fit 20k into a 70k seat stadium and because of owning their own destiny (obviously not the only reasons).

Oi watch it there, we have the best cricket and footie/rugby grounds in NZ!

As an aside to those saying a 60k stadium would be too big on AKLs waterfront, I've been to the Millennium Stadium in Cardiff a few times where the upper tiers were locked out and only about 20k where in, still felt very full and better atmosphere then I've ever experienced in Eden Park or the Cake Tin.  Also the cameras are located in a position that hides the upper tiers.

Was a huge fail by NZ where the waterfront stadium was not approved, but well NZ does think small town styles, always has.

Sorry if it's off-topic, but what's wrong with Eden Park's position (as opposed to it being stupidly overbuilt right now)? Right next to a train station and a cozy inner-suburb centre with lots of pubs. I'm not impressed by any argument involving parking because Aucklanders should GTFO of their cars. In contrast, the waterfront has nothing near it but yuppie apartments and car parking (Auckland's answer to Wellington's logs).

Its in the middle of suburbia stopping concerts etc.  A waterfront stadium would not have these problems and would also be easier to get to for people on the shore, out west, out east and down south.

Visit the Mile High Stadium or Pepsi Centre in Denver or Millenium Stadium in Cardiff to really expereince what its like to not have to worry about NIMBYs or noise polution/control.

Or even the old Docklands in Melbourne, or any of the big-game grounds in Sydney.

This

You have hit the nail right on the head....

NZ for its size is way over the top in the number of big stadia. When you consider England....they have Wembley and thats the national stadium and where Englands football team play the vast majority of their home games..ditto for Twickenham for rugby. In France the national football and rugby teams play the bulk of their games in the national stadium in Paris(with the occasional friendly played in Marseille) You look at other even smaller countries in Europe and the same thing happens...the national teams play most of their games in the national stadium.

However in good 'ol NZ rugby is king. Every biggish city is paranoid that they will lose the chance of an annual All Black test if they don't bankrupt their rate payers and build a 30,000 plus stadium. Its just absurd how many big grounds we have. There must be billions of $$$ tied up in stadia across NZ. Dunedin with a population of just over 100,000 spent $200 + million on a rugby stadium...madness. It has not helped that the NZRFU has decided to turn the AB's into a "club" team that plays 7+ home games a year...no chance to play all those in Auckland.

But nothing will change...we are cursed with too many of the wrong sort of stadia but there is neither the $$$ or the public will to do anythin about it. The decision to make Westpac an oval was made at a time when they needed dual usage across winter and summer for rugby and cricket to maximise its usage, Like all compromises you never end up getting a solution that pleases everyone.

One area that NZ stadium designers have seriously missed out on is other commercial usage to offset running costs. If you visit modern stadia in the USA or Europe the first thing you notice is how much commercial activity is going on. Many modern stadia incorporate hotels, bars restaurants, office space etc that run all week. We are stuck in a "we need an event" mentality that fails to address other ways to make revenue.

We are stuck with Westpac..and we will be stuck with it unless it gets flattened by an earthquake or something. The Hutt wreck gave us a glimpse of what might have been....

Unfortunately  Doloras, Aucklanders like to take their cars and usually leave it up to the last second as to whether or not attend a game - depending on if it might rain or not. Sorry, but I heard all this on an Auckland radio station at a Nix game up there.

You are correct, but sadly your fellow Aucklanders don't  agree.

You really should take a stroll down there sometime D. It is cranking with restaurants and pubs.

I'm there now (Auck waterfront) It's heaving. My barman - Hearts supporting Scot with Hendrix tats one bicep, Marley the other - says "Go fudgein Nix!" Told him I've only been to Easter Rd. Not impressed!

NB Talking rivalry, it would be a shame in the greater scheme of things (for NZ) if the ACFC v Nix thing died a quiet death result of transfers, forum politeness, etc. etc. IMO we need a bit of club v club verbal biffo if only to keep things fresh in Kiwiland if nowhere else. I'm sure my Scots barman would agree. Any opinion?

NNB Here's a starter: Andy Hedge quoted as saying the ACFC showing v Nix reserves as "the best midfield performance I've seen this year at any level."

NNNB Edit: pissed. St pats Day. Hic.

Yeah but we want a football stadium not a desirable $1m+ residence.

Quite possibly you are right. You cant totally blame the designers if in 200 "Super Rugby games averaged 33,000, and the NPC averaged 28,000". Surely the problem is the change in support rather than the stadium size.

Now I know you can factor in the Nazi monopolistic stadium attitude for pricing, food, drink etc, but at the time the planning was done it was thought that crouds would be bigger

We've been going for seven years.  In that time we have definitely got bigger.

Sigh. All for it. But bigger, man, bigger...

Desirable?

Ahem. Somewhat pedantic I know, but Dunedin would raise a tentative hand to question that statement. 

Mostly irrelevant to the current conversation, but the covered roof has made going to sport in this city such a different experience. Whether or not it's affordable is a different question.

I rate Forsythe the best stadium in NZ at the moment. Proper shape, roof and also allows air in. The pitch is an awesome one in excellent condition. Also the parking there is only $10 to everyone whether they are a ST holder or not.

Can we move it up here (one piece at a time, Johnny Cash style)?

I supppose I discounted the "concerts" issue because I'm a music snob and I don't think music should be played in venues of more than concert hall size. Imagine being in the back row of a 70,000 gig. You might as well stay home and listen to the CD (and get stoned).

Its a shame the best stadium is located in a city where stadia is at its most underused.

Forsyth-Barr is great. I think we all wish we had something similar in Wellington. It's worth pointing out that it has been losing half a million a year. The real test for that stadium is whether it can still attract events if Christchurch builds a new stadium. Right now Dunedin is getting the big games that Christchurch would otherwise get.

Don't think Dunedin has a good track record at supporting football.  1st game the Nix played yes it had good numbers, but didn't sell out.  Last time we were there i think the croud was around 6000 and not so many showed up for Newcastle Sydney.  Move the lunchbox to Wellington!

Doloras, did you ever go to a Pink Floyd concert? They were well worth going to big croud or small croud.

They got pretty good numbers for a pre season game against the Raw which was the first game of any description at the stadium 15k iirc. We then played them in a Regional round and had about 4.5k , then played Heart and got 3k although that number seemed pretty generous despite Ahmads best efforts. shortly afterwards the AW's played  New Caledonia and got about 5k or so.

Definitely not the best football support down there

would say though that the Nix games with the smaller crouds where when the students weren't in town. One was midweek also wasn't it?

Austin you get 4 likes but how many people were against the World Cup qualifiers being held in Auckland? The NZRU simply has to play more games a year because of their bottom line. Personally, I like the fact that Wellington is a city which can attract big events. Do we really want to live in a country where we have to get on a plane in order to watch any major sporting event? Westpac Stadium only actually required $40 million of public money. Given that the stadium at Petone Rec was going to cost $20 million of public money it seems to me that Westpac Stadium was a good deal for Wellington. I don't really see how one could be against Westpac recieving $40 million but pro the Petone Rec recieving $20 million. When the stadium cost $40 million of public money and some people want us to spend $55 million on keeping Trolley buses I sort of shake my head. The Rugby World Cup, Sevens each year, All Blacks test, World Cup qualifiers, Cricket World Cup etc I think that $40 million was easily paid off. There is no way Wellington rate payers have been bankrupted by the stadium as far as I can tell. In Dunedin? Maybe

As has been said, I can't recall anyone who believe at the time that Westpac was too large

Your 40 million was close to 20 years ago when the total cost of the stadium was 130m. Cost to build now would be 500m or more so that 40m would be closer to 200m of todays dollars which is a lot of money as was the 40m then.

Yes we all like the fact that we get a big stadium in Auckland Wellington Dunedin and probably Christchurch, but the issue is that they are only used to anywhere near capacity for maybe 2 x a year, on average. That is the issue. We have stadia all over the country that are massively under utilised and oversized for what the population of the area can actually reasonably utilise. 

Ryan54...you are right to say that at the time nobody thought the stadium was too big....in fact many thought that it was not big enough. The point I am making is that its great that the big cities of NZ like Auckland, Wellington and Christchurch have good stadia, and so they should but we still have way too much stadium capacity across the country for our population size.

Interesting stats out from the people running the stadium today. Ten years 600,000 people went to the Westpac stadium in that financial year.....last year that number was down to 439,638

Ten years ago there were 444, 573 people who went to watch rugby.....last year that number had fallen to 215,993.....that is an astonishing collapse in support. ( football went from zero to 100,000......go the Nix)

So basically the NZRFU have screwed their product.....which is another story.

No body could have predicted the change in attendance......but its a commercial reality now that people are not sufficiently motivated to pay money to  freeze their arses off  in a wind swept half empty cavernous stadium eating ripoff food and drinking crap beer. Which brings us full circle in the argument ....... in 2015 you need to offer a better product or people won't go. Hence the boutique stadium argument. Apart from issues with viewing lines and no roof most people were favourably impressed by their Hutt Wreck experiance........which is more than you can say about the general feelings about Westpac

we just need Phoenix fans to win powerball a few weekends in a row.