Crowds - The thread of Australian whining

I think there's two parts to an opportunity that isn't fully addressed or recognised currently in our efforts to grow Nix numbers..

It goes beyond massive marketing budgets, media hype, big flash sponsors with deep pockets ..even, dare I say it, star players, a stronger squad, impressive performances and winning matches,even against illustrious EPL opposition.Yes, these things are all very important.and the momentum being built as we approach the 14/15 season looks promising,.fingers crossed.

In my opinion, the first part is fully understanding the answers to the question... what currently motivates about 1 percent of the greater Wellington population to front to EVERY Nix game??.. ..That's where the opportunity lies.

The answers will be around fundamentals like belonging, unity, shared memories and experiences...about building a club. a legacy..about making history.

Those epic memories... the sheer joy of the first ever Nix match season 1...Daniel's first Nix goal, drawing 2-2 with the A League champs MVFC! a day of firsts..what a day! The Beckham LA Galaxy Game ..2010 Finals football at the RoF, beating Perth in the penalty shootout then Newcastle 3-1 to progress through to the Prelim. Final..The 6-0 win v GCU here at the RoF.(spawned the "we want 7!" chant)..and plenty more...What an opportunity to be there and be a part of the evolving history of the Wellington Phoenix!

Supporting Our Team, in Our Town, in Our Region... things that resonate, have meaning and value, that engage us, that say why we go to watch every Phoenix match.in the season, ..rain or shine,..windy,freezing nights,..weeknights, late nights,..winning, losing...doesn't matter!

The core 4000 or so of us that are ALWAYS there, get it. Plenty more could get it too, if we shared the stories of why we turn up for every Nix game and if we invited them to come along too

The second part I believe lies with how the Wellington Phoenix Football Club treats and values membership and loyalty.

A successful strategy would firstly, 

Identify those fundamentals of why we faithful one percenters come to every game, distill those fundamentals into a message or campaign that engages with and enrols more like-minded individuals to join us in supporting the Nix. 

A successful strategy would secondly, 

Consolidate that growing supporter base around a membership package that year on year encourages, recognises and incrementally rewards continued and ongoing loyalty..What can be learnt from the most successful football clubs around these matters?

If we grow the core 1%...imagine what it would be like if we could grow to 4 or 5% of the Wellington population... maybe more?

Bravo Red Ged. Bravo!!!

Nothing beats growing support like winning. As in 2010.

Rheineck...

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Football_League_television_blackout_policies

Have a read through of that. NFL has the harshest rules. Other sports have relaxed theirs more recently

Last year ESPN bought all the remaining tickets to get a game over the line and gave them to military members.

But there have been local blackouts on games in the last couple of years (Mostly 1pm games, I don't think any of the national games have been blacked out.

The answer to this is simple - WIN!

I would imagine that if the Nix have a great start to the year, by playing good football, scoring goals, and in the top 3, then the crowds will come. I believe that a sustained winning run would see crowds to regularly top 10k and then if the Nix are in contention, the last few home games of the season may see crowds of up to 15k depending on weather etc.

Nix mgmt have said they believe regular home marketing pushes does little towards increasing crowd sizes, so i guess we need to take them at their word on this as i assume they will have done some analysis of their marketing spend and subsequent outcomes.

They are better off putting their marketing dollar in their pocket and use it for the really big games (say Mel City with Villa) and then when the team is doing well to help further fuel the buzz that will have naturally been created.

To me it's about winning. We've all been to games and know the fantastic atmosphere and most of us have raved about it to our friends, work colleagues etc until we're blue in the face, but I would say that avenue is done and dusted now in terms of increasing the numbers on a regular sustainable basis. As mentioned the club have tried marketing and believe it doesn't work.

Crowds are static, the only thing we haven't really done is a sustained winning streak, other than perhaps the tailend of the season in which we played Newcastle and Perth in the playoffs.

But we are a small market team. If you can only get big enough crowds to break even when you come in the top 3, then you are not a sustainable football team. Winning does bring in the fans and rightfully so. You can't always win. Your team has to be able to do well in the bad times as well because the bad times are definitely going to come at some point.

yeah think its worth discussing how to increase core crowds without winning. 

I don't even think winning increases crowds that much other than increasing the chance of there being a real meaningful 'nix need to win this game to make the playoffs or win the league' or a finals game - which are the games that get big crowds. 

Fair point Ryan. However it is also true that a cycle of success infects a certain percentage of the Johnny-come-latelies with "the bug" that the core have. Then, during the next, inevitable, lean patch the core is bigger than it was before. Yes, the core will shrink a little during the lean patch... that's natural too as some of the less well infected core defect/lose interest.

Clubs like Man United were not always huge and as well supported as they are now. What you see now is the result of cycles of success and lean times repeated over the long term to gradually build up the supporter base.Dougie is right... you can do all the promotion you like, but in the end you need good times to spread the bug. Being there jumping up and down excitedly and swinging your scarf around over your head as the "let's go f***Ing mental!" chant goes off, you can't ignore the infeciousness of those experiences.

I guess largely my point above is driven by the fact that the club seem to believe they have tried pretty much everything to get bigger crowds. And at times they are successful but generally only for a game before support dies away again. Take the 10k promo last season, which got the crowd to 10k (or fractionally under), but that was a lot of work from many of the YF fans and 'mgmt' (does YF have management ;)...

@Ryan - maybe the Nix isn't a sustainable team in that market? Which is why they need to look at more than one game a year away from WLG. 

@bwtcf - you make a great point about sustained periods of success fostering further grassroots growth which help build the base in the leaner times.

@tegal - i disagree with your claim that 'I don't even think winning increases crowds...' I think it does, and believe that a winning Nix team builds momentum, enthusiasm and interest from a wider group of people than do now, Many of whom who may look at supporting the Nix as 'fashionable' thing to do, as they pick up on the buzz from a variety of sources (papers, radio, colleagues, friends etc)

Just my thoughts as I think so many things have been tried over the years and basically supports pretty much stalls at around the 6-7k mark.

I think its worth making a distinction here, Dougie.

I agree that crowds will naturally increase as the team builds a winning record. The challenge is to keep them with us, build the loyal core who will ALWAYS be there, after we...

Stop winning, or

Get knocked out of the playoffs, or 

Win the league then disappear from view for an interminably long post-then-pre-season.. etc. etc.

Its about converting significantly more of the transient "only support when you're winning" type (you don't want to be this type ;) 

 to "support by being at every game" type...That's most of us.

As I see it, the challenge is to identify and distill what gets the faithful core there to the games every time and share that around...tell those stories...invite others to join us. and that the club recognises and rewards those commitments people make.

I have no local knowledge and accordingly can bring only offer what I understand is needed for any sport especially a sport trying to break into an existing market with a very strong, and historical long term competitor [ie rugby and cricket]

My readings are its all about the match day experience, which has a number of elements to it, some listed and I am unsure how good or bad the ROF is and some of these points have nothing to do with the stadium.

• Reasonable start time allowing for weather, kids meals etc,
• Decent stadium with modern menu for Food,
• Decent viewing experience,
• Play entertaining, the play ugly and win is for the die hard's it is not good for the newcomers,
• Win especially at home as much as possible,
• Reasonable entry costs,
• Management to connect with support groups.

The next parts are good and targeted marketing.

Also and quite important is media coverage prior to the game and coverage overall TBH.

This is a personal observation and therefore is bound to be wrong, but I post it because its what I have observed.. Terry Serepisos when he was in charge seem to connect to the man in the street and sorta got the town [sorry city] behind him. He seemed to have a flare for marketing and knowing what to say ... The new owners come across as HHMMmmmm not sure but as I see lack the ability to connect with supporters in the way that Terry did as an issue … and I am probably wrong .  

I think BWTCF has this covered in his point above 

'However it is also true that a cycle of success infects a certain percentage of the Johnny-come-latelies with "the bug" that the core have. Then, during the next, inevitable, lean patch the core is bigger than it was before. Yes, the core will shrink a little during the lean patch... that's natural too as some of the less well infected core defect/lose interest.What you see now is the result of cycles of success and lean times repeated over the long term to gradually build up the supporter base

I have argued above we have already 'told those stories' as you mention, but really with little impact.

I have worked in Sports Marketing at domestic sports franchise so I guess have some idea. I suspect the Nix have tried as much as they can, remember they've been doing this since 2007 now. I am loathe to say to them 'don't bother its too hard' as plenty of people told me that too when I was working in the industry but I believe their marketing and promotions dept because they're on a limited budget are best left to capitalise on momentum...

It's a good debate, but sometimes practicalities win through.

The only real thing we haven't 'tried' is winning...

what were average crowds like the season after we were one game away from grand final? 

In that season,What were the crowds like for games other than 'do or die' types that I mention above?

Also excluding travelling circus games which come with a novelty factor attached that artificially inflates attendance - or at least treating them seperately. 

Good points, and the club and stadium are addressing most of the match day experience stuff. Wellington is quite cosmopolitan and enjoys high quality food and craft beverages, whereas the stadium was stuck in a twenty year old food model.  Unfrotunately the stadium itself is too big and is the wrong shape, but can't do much about that in the near to medium term.

I think though allot of the nix's success in engaging with the community was down to Tony Pignata who is now the CEO of Sydney, very open and approachable. Even still posts on this forum on occasion.

What do other teams crowd figures look like if you remove away fans? We get fuck all here for obvious reasons.

Without doing the figures, I would say we would at least beat the Heart and the Mariners if you took out their crowds against local rivals. I guess you would also have to take out our game in Auckland, as well.

very good Wellington crowd for the football united games and the phoenix played very well. If that performance wasn't enough to entice wellingtonians and others close by to attend future games - then quality of product is not the main problem. Time and day of games is not condusive for out of town visitors and young kids -  would think that needs to be addressed with the A league masters. Price seems reasonable but i have disposable income, maybe some ticketing strategies designed to get new people rather than just making it cheaper for those that go anyway ( and i dont know what those strategies should be). Food and beverage seem to have improved and that might attract some newbies, i suspect the lounge might do that too as word spreads. I cant help thinking a major marquee might have a good effect on the gate, rather than depending on some of the other clubs rocking up with theirs. Personally i make a special attempt to go to games that the stars are playing in. They would have to be star quality to get new people to show up week in and week out. So, there are some of my rumblings.

The Mariners .. over two seasons is the best way to measure.

26 games of which 9 are derby matches.

3 against the Drive Bys at 10, 000 per match is 30, 000

3 against the Flying Circus at 6, 000 per match is 18, 000

3 against the Jest at 4, 000 per match is 12, 000

So 60, 000 over 26 matches or roughly 2.3 K per match... our average is about 10 K so take off 2.3 K ... without the Derby matches say 7.7 K..  

minus the 'big game' effect of a derby match. 

Makes more sense just to calculate the average of the games that weren't derbies. Though guess that's a bit more effort. 

Also your math is weird. Your average for a derby is 60,000/9 = 6,666. Which is a lot lower than what you say your regular average is at 10k?

ultimate A league has your average last season at 9k. Your highest attendance was 17k vs WSW. 

The season before that was 10k with a high of 18k vs WSW. 

T

Sorry all I did was say we get roughly 60K for the 9 derby matches and supporting what Ryan wrote ..  my guess is take the 60K and divide by 26 games ... so reduce average crowd by 2.3 K ... 

Having said all this ... we do have the derby matches and it does add say 30 K to our crowd each season and we also have roughly 15% of our support base who live in northern parts of Sydney ...

You can do the maths all I was doing was agreeing with Ryan... and giving him some figures... 

I'd suggest you'd get close to 50k+ from the WSW games over those 2 seasons alone. 

Over 3 games .. let me see 50 / 3 = 16.33 ... our stadium only holds 20K and the Drive Bys bring in locals as well ... on your figures only 3.7K locals turn up ... I think the figures I gave are reasonably close ... 

Crowd predictions for this season don't make any sense based on The Mariners  as they are a "winning" team. We are not (And haven't been for two seasons) but i hope that changes. 

Don't know if it will fix the small crowd issue.

That is total. You got double your average crowd in those games. 

Three 'derby' matches with an Auckland A-League team would boost gate average substantially IMO. This should be encouraged as far as possible.

I wonder how many potential fans are put off with the awful voices of Fred de Bland and his side kick?

Not as many as by the music that blares out of stadiums

Very true.

Pretty sure it was this thread talking about Blackouts....just an article on the NFL & Blackouts

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/...

Looks like Melbourne City will have decent crowd and membership already topped at 7500 and growing this season, Leaving us way behind with what 2.5k in membership? and 2 to 3k in walk up crowds.

read it here.

Very disappointed with our figures considering the double header. I thought that might have brought in a few more st holders. Decent turnout at Weka Park too. Nice little ground.

Was there any marketing of memberships / tickets at the football united double header?  A great way to get casuals to come back would be to nab them on their way out the gate while their still on a high from enjoying that game.  I went to a few egg ball games this year and they would have someone on the PA after the final whistle announcing a deal on next weeks game, e.g. get $5 off if you go to the ticket box right now.

Might help lock in a few casuals.

just goes to show how many euro snobs we have.

What does amaze me are some peoples expectations of seeing EPL class football at every game and then moaning when they dont see it. THIS is the A League and it's still in its relative infancy. Give it a break and come and support your Wellington professional football team that no other centers here have.