FIFA have rejected the Phoenix's bid to qualify for the Club World Cup through Oceania. They said that the Phoenix are an Australian club even thought they reside in New Zealand.
Link www.smh.com.au/football/ at the bottom of the Advocaat compo article.
Pignata apparently will appeal the ruling but are also going to argue the Phoenix's case for entry to the the Asian champs league with FFA. This make sense...if FIFA rule we are an Australian club then we should be available for Asia. This has huge implications.
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The other interesting precedent is what will happen with Cardiff if they win the FA Cup or Pompey get a UEFA cup place in the league. Cardiff being allowed in to the UEFA Cup would move the goalposts completely.
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The other interesting precedent is what will happen with Cardiff if they win the FA Cup or Pompey get a UEFA cup place in the league. Cardiff being allowed in to the UEFA Cup would move the goalposts completely.
I dont see why Cardiff don''t participate in the Welsh Cup. There is that Lichtenstein team that plays in the Swiss league except for the cup competition instead playing in the Lichtenstein cup and win it all the time guaranteeing European football.
In regards to the Phoenix, if we are allowed into Asia that would be great, but what are the restrictions on the number of players allowed into an ACL team not from Asia?
And if they do take away Oceania's slot from the World Club Champs because they are not competitive enough, that would seem stupid considering we would fit the bill
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Sorry the link is
www.smh.com.au/news/football then go to the bottom of the Advocaat compo article
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Sorry the link is
www.smh.com.au/news/football then go to the bottom of the Advocaat compo article
This link is not working. For me, anyway. 
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http://www.smh.com.au/news/football/advocaat-compo-in-pipeline-for-ffa/2008/04/08/1207420389192.html
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http://www.smh.com.au/news/football/advocaat-compo-in-pipeline-for-ffa/2008/04/08/1207420389192.html
Meanwhile, FIFA have rejected an attempt by Wellington Phoenix to qualify for the Club World Cup through Oceania, but the club has not yet given up the fight.
Wellington want to compete in the O-League - the competition used by Oceania to determine its representative at the CWC - but received advice last week that it would not be possible.
"They have told us we are, to all intents and purposes, an Australian club, even though we are located in New Zealand," said Phoenix chief executive Tony Pignata. "But our preferred option remains to go through the O-League � We are in the process of going back to FIFA to see if we can change their mind. Failing that, we will have to take our case to the FFA and see if they'll let us qualify through the Asian Champions League."
Wellington, meanwhile, have continued their recruiting campaign by signing All Whites defender Ben Sigmund, 27, from Auckland City.
Wellington want to compete in the O-League - the competition used by Oceania to determine its representative at the CWC - but received advice last week that it would not be possible.
"They have told us we are, to all intents and purposes, an Australian club, even though we are located in New Zealand," said Phoenix chief executive Tony Pignata. "But our preferred option remains to go through the O-League � We are in the process of going back to FIFA to see if we can change their mind. Failing that, we will have to take our case to the FFA and see if they'll let us qualify through the Asian Champions League."
Wellington, meanwhile, have continued their recruiting campaign by signing All Whites defender Ben Sigmund, 27, from Auckland City.
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don't tell happy ted...he might actually be happy...
though how absolutely much more AWESOME!!! would it be to see the phoenix in the ACL...maybe the first step to joining NZ into Asia...
martinb2008-04-09 10:49:58
though how absolutely much more AWESOME!!! would it be to see the phoenix in the ACL...maybe the first step to joining NZ into Asia...
martinb2008-04-09 10:49:58
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That's a really interesting decision. It conflicts with the decision already made by the Oceania Federation to allow the Phoenix into the O-League and the implications are potentially massive.
First, if the appeal fails, it really increases the pressure on the FFA to allow the Phoenix to qualify for the ACL. Although I've always thought that qualification through Oceania is a more logical route for the Phoenix qualifying through Asia is obviously preferable (although harder). Involvement in an ACL campaign would be fantastic!
Second, can anyone else hear the opening bars of Oceania's death march playing? This decision almost certainly extinguishes any chance Oceania has of holding onto a Club World Cup place (unless Waitakere can pull off a miracle). That's a serious dent in the attractiveness of being a member of Oceania, and also sets a precedent for questioning Oceania's competitiveness in other competitions.
It makes you wonder if that's what FIFA ultimately have in mind and so the Phoenix representing Oceania at the CWC (and potentially being competitive) doesn't really fit their agenda.
NZF should be looking to jump ship from Oceania as soon as possible, before it sinks anyway.
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What I think will happen is that Oceania will be absorbed into Asia in its entirety and then Asia will be split in 2 with West Asia (which includes the Middle East) and East Asia (including Oceania).
I can see this happening within the next 5 years, maybe before qualifying starts for 2014.
I can see this happening within the next 5 years, maybe before qualifying starts for 2014.
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What I think will happen is that Oceania will be absorbed into Asia in its entirety and then Asia will be split in 2 with West Asia (which includes the Middle East) and East Asia (including Oceania).
I can see this happening within the next 5 years, maybe before qualifying starts for 2014.
I can see this happening within the next 5 years, maybe before qualifying starts for 2014.
that would be the most logical solution.
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What I think will happen is that Oceania will be absorbed into Asia in its entirety and then Asia will be split in 2 with West Asia (which includes the Middle East) and East Asia (including Oceania).
I can see this happening within the next 5 years, maybe before qualifying starts for 2014.
I can see this happening within the next 5 years, maybe before qualifying starts for 2014.
that would be the most logical solution.
You're talking FIFA. What's logic got to do with it? 
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I don't think this is necessarily bad news either. I've always thought that qualification through Asia would be a huge boast for the Phoenix and football in NZ. We should be pushing as hard as possible for that, no matter what the complications might be (and judging by previous posts on this topic the complications are legion). Imagine the buzz round town if it was us playing Gamba Osaka tonight!
Surely FIFA have to let us into one or the other...!?
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Well for a start I don't get why even australia are aloowed into t ACL given the fact that their an oceanian nation, but i guess it's just like the nix being allowed into the A-League.
ANYWAy, even if we were allowed into the O-league would that mean playoffs against NZFC teams or automatic qualification (the two mean pretty much the same thing)
Sorry if this belongs on another thread
You know we belong together...
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Well for a start I don't get why even australia are aloowed into t ACL given the fact that their an oceanian nation
Oz is an Asian Country now. Football wise at least.
"Sharing rewards the weak"- Steven Colbert
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I don't think this is necessarily bad news either. I've always thought that qualification through Asia would be a huge boast for the Phoenix and football in NZ. We should be pushing as hard as possible for that, no matter what the complications might be (and judging by previous posts on this topic the complications are legion). Imagine the buzz round town if it was us playing Gamba Osaka tonight!
Surely FIFA have to let us into one or the other...!?
In New Zealand??? oh wait no in Wellington and in the vicinity of four kings or the backbencher...NZ in champions league football...oh ok like a home game in welly??? that would be something. champions league ball in NZ...
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An ACL home game would pick up a big crowd for sure in Wellington. Relatively speaking (let's ignore Europe for a minute) the ACL is the big time, and if it was marketed well and Phoenix were competitive I think there would be a lot of interest throughout NZ. StopOut2008-04-09 23:25:39
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Except one VERY little corner of Auckland.
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Good.
The Oceania CL is complete joke.
The Oceania CL is complete joke.
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Well for a start I don't get why even australia are aloowed into t ACL given the fact that their an oceanian nation
Oz is an Asian Country now. Football wise at least.
And don't forget, Oz wanted to play in Asia to raise their game and their profile. Rats leaving the slowly sinking Oceania ship.
I think we should follow ASAP if we can find a way to jump the red tape.
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Oz is an Asian Country now. Football wise at least.
And we are China's new best buddies so we should be quids in for membership of the Asian Federation.
Now if you'll excuse me I'm off to punch a Tibetan monk in the face...
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Except one VERY little corner of Auckland.
I can't believe the Flat Earth Society haven't been in here gloating yet. But they're probably all still in the toilets at Kiwitea St jerking off over ACFC beating TW.
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To be honest I'm delighted. 
It would make sense for NZ to be part of the AFC at some point (my wish is sooner rather than later), in almost all other fields the concept of "Asia-Pacific" is accepted as normal. Hopefully the remaining dominoes will now fall that will lead to that outcome (Oceania kicked out of the club WC, Oceania ceases to be of interest to the island nations, Oceania dies and is absorbed into the AFC).
I know it would be nice to see the Phoenix at the Club World Cup, however thinking long term would eligibility for the AFC Champions league not be better? It is currently not a money spinner for the clubs who qualify however the AFC have ambitious plans for the competitions commercialisation so that should change. Like someone else said earlier Phoenix vs. Gamba Osaka or Chunnam Dragons or Beijing Guo'an etc etc at the RoF would surely draw large crowds, and the NZ Asian population would surely get interested in football, helping to develop the game, plus the networking opportunities and exposure for Wellington and NZ in Asian markets would mean football would rate very well against rugby in economic benefit. Not that the government would necessarily notice though...
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That's a really interesting decision. It conflicts with the decision already made by the Oceania Federation to allow the Phoenix into the O-League and the implications are potentially massive.
First, if the appeal fails, it really increases the pressure on the FFA to allow the Phoenix to qualify for the ACL. Although I've always thought that qualification through Oceania is a more logical route for the Phoenix qualifying through Asia is obviously preferable (although harder). Involvement in an ACL campaign would be fantastic!
Second, can anyone else hear the opening bars of Oceania's death march playing? This decision almost certainly extinguishes any chance Oceania has of holding onto a Club World Cup place (unless Waitakere can pull off a miracle). That's a serious dent in the attractiveness of being a member of Oceania, and also sets a precedent for questioning Oceania's competitiveness in other competitions.
It makes you wonder if that's what FIFA ultimately have in mind and so the Phoenix representing Oceania at the CWC (and potentially being competitive) doesn't really fit their agenda.
NZF should be looking to jump ship from Oceania as soon as possible, before it sinks anyway.
I think this is actually quite a crutial point.
FIFA said get your house in order or you are goneski.
Oceania provisionally allow a professional team to enter the comp and thus 'sort our sh*t out' according to Sepp
FIFA then deny that step of 'sorting our sh*t out'
It fundamentally says that regardless, Oceania is finished at CWC level.
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we have to stop looking to Cardiff to set the precedents we need...atleast they're in the same confederation as the english.
wait for us to move to asia and hopefully things will work out
wait for us to move to asia and hopefully things will work out
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Right decision!
Wasn't Tony P recently claiming they are an Australian Club just domiciled here because it suited him?
Phoenix into Asia through A league qualification would be brilliant. Then wind up Oceania into Asia and we might make progress!
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Well, given that FIFA have told us to GTF qualifying through Ocenaia, logically Asia + FFA don't have a leg to stand out stopping us being eligible for ACL qualification. I think FFA need to come out and settle it for good, and tell us that when we win the A-League that we will be eligible to play in the ACL.
When Hibs, went up, to win the Scottish Cup - I wisnae there - furfuxake!
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Agreed. We must surely be eligible to compete in the ACL if we're not eligible to compete in Oceania. I wouldn't bet on that logic applying though. Cardiff/Swansea/Wrexham at present cannot qualify for Europe - no longer eligible to compete in the Welsh Cup* and not yet eligible to represent the English association.
*Cardiff/Wrexham/Swansea used to compete in the Welsh Cup. They stopped in 1995. Prior to that even English clubs close to the Welsh border (e.g. Hereford, Chester) even entered - though those clubs could not qualify for Europe via the Welsh Cup.
Ultimately, it seems clear to me that NZ needs to join Asia. If that happens, I think we'll probably see the remaining Oceania members follow - though there's every chance that some will follow Tuvalu and not maintaining FIFA membership.
I first posted the idea about splitting Asia during the 1998 World Cup (not saying I thought of it first - someone is bound to have thought of it before then too). I still think the idea has merit, but there are practical problems. I don't think FIFA have the constitutional right to do it. Asia itself would have to decide to separate, which of course requires FIFA's approval. Can we see Asia deciding to split itself? I can't. Why would they want to? What's in it for them to agree to reduce their empire and then get into arguments about how many WC spots should go East or West. Especially for those in the East who would find themselves in a group with the weaker teams from Oceania.
Instead, I don't think there would be any problem with Asia just becoming Asia-Pacific by absorbing Oceania. The only issue would be potentially increased costs of competing for the island nations who can least afford to travel to the middle east for games. I think it likely that we'll lose some nations to non-FIFA status unless FIFA step-in to provide subsidies.
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Asia wont want us though. Not many financial benefits bringing the Oceania region into theirs...Aussie is different because there are huge financial gains to be made.
Wouldn't the Asian Federation itself have to tell us that we're eligible - not FFA?
valeo2008-04-11 13:55:52
Well, given that FIFA have told us to GTF
qualifying through Ocenaia, logically Asia + FFA don't have a leg to
stand out stopping us being eligible for ACL qualification. I think FFA
need to come out and settle it for good, and tell us that when we win
the A-League that we will be eligible to play in the ACL.
Wouldn't the Asian Federation itself have to tell us that we're eligible - not FFA?
valeo2008-04-11 13:55:52
a.haak
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Valeo is correct that the Asian Federation would have to decide we're eligible, though if it is the same concept as Europe then the FFA have to agree to nominate us for a spot if we finished in a qualifying position. Plus of course, the cross-confederation aspect would probably mean FIFA also have to approve.
With regards to Asia needing financial incentive to accept us, I don't know if it is that simplistic. UEFA accepted Israel, which I doubt produced any financial gain. More recently, UEFA also accepted Kazakhstan when they wanted to shift from Asia to Europe. There are members fees to be paid, so as long as we're good for that I don't think the financial side will be much of a barrier.
In essence what is the money that the governing body of a zone gets from a country's membership? Annual subscription/licensing fees, certainly. Television rights from zone-based competitions (champions league, continental championships such as Asia Cup) being sold into a new country's territory... is there much above that? How does it work? Is there really a financial boon to Asia from Australia's membership. I'm speculating, so would like to hear from anyone in the know.
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Well for a start I don't get why even australia are aloowed into t ACL given the fact that their an oceanian nation
Oz is an Asian Country now. Football wise at least.
And don't forget, Oz wanted to play in Asia to raise their game and their profile. Rats leaving the slowly sinking Oceania ship.
I think we should follow ASAP if we can find a way to jump the red tape.
Same old aussies, they jumped shipped before in the late 70s, nothing new there.
Supporter world's best and worst football teams: Waikato/WaiBop, Kingz, Knights, Phoenix, The Argyle, The Whites & the All Whites
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Well for a start I don't get why even australia are aloowed into t ACL given the fact that their an oceanian nation
Oz is an Asian Country now. Football wise at least.
In the 80s Taiwan was part of Oceania and Israel are part of EUFA even they they should be Asia or maybe Africa.
Supporter world's best and worst football teams: Waikato/WaiBop, Kingz, Knights, Phoenix, The Argyle, The Whites & the All Whites
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Like someone else said earlier Phoenix vs. Gamba Osaka or Chunnam Dragons or Beijing Guo'an etc etc at the RoF would surely draw large crowds, and the NZ Asian population would surely get interested in football, helping to develop the game...
Is it happening now?
How many Asians are seen at Nix games. Living in Auckland and watching games on Sky, there's no easy way to tell.
Are more Asian adults playing in Kiwi teams - any grades (serious or social)?
And what about Asian kids? Is there an increase in numbers taking up the game?
Anyone coaching/playing/watching have an answer or opinion on this?
scribbler2008-04-12 11:28:57
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Right now the major completing teams sports contesting for the NZ Asians is chiefly Basketball and maybe some Volleyball.
But there is still plenty of interest in football. Association Football was the main team sport historically for NZ Chinese in the past and then by the late 80s and early 90s Socially wise, Basketball started to be main choice socially. So Football was on the back foot behind the Basketball, Touch and even Volleyball due to numbers and social aspects. Football which was the first sport that started the Chinese Easter Tournament was gone in the middle 90s as a tournament sport. It has came back as an indoor game but hasn't being as strong as before because of the various new sports.
On the club football scene, the increase of new imports in the last 10 years football came back toe to toe with Basketball. This is mainly comes by the Japanese students and some Chinese students. The last 5 years has been a steady increase in some regions.
Completing in Asia will catch plenty of supporters. But that is the East Asian group. The West Asians, it is always fairly popular way ahead of Volleyball socially. I rarely see West asians play Bball.
But there is still plenty of interest in football. Association Football was the main team sport historically for NZ Chinese in the past and then by the late 80s and early 90s Socially wise, Basketball started to be main choice socially. So Football was on the back foot behind the Basketball, Touch and even Volleyball due to numbers and social aspects. Football which was the first sport that started the Chinese Easter Tournament was gone in the middle 90s as a tournament sport. It has came back as an indoor game but hasn't being as strong as before because of the various new sports.
On the club football scene, the increase of new imports in the last 10 years football came back toe to toe with Basketball. This is mainly comes by the Japanese students and some Chinese students. The last 5 years has been a steady increase in some regions.
Completing in Asia will catch plenty of supporters. But that is the East Asian group. The West Asians, it is always fairly popular way ahead of Volleyball socially. I rarely see West asians play Bball.
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I have already posted this on the Youth League thread, however the following excerpt is relevant to the Phoenix competing in the Club World Cup
http://www.stuff.net.nz/4479749a1823.html
http://www.stuff.net.nz/4479749a1823.html
The Phoenix, however, remain in no-man's-land regarding the Club World Cup.
Fifa has said they could compete in the O-League but, should they win it, they would not be allowed to represent Oceania at the Club World Cup because they play in an Asian league (the A-League).
But the Phoenix are also unable to progress through the Asian Champions League should they win the A-League, because they are based in Oceania.
"It mystifies me a little bit as to where we sit," Pignata said.
Oceania Football Confederation is appealing to Fifa, which has previously stated that the region must be represented by a fully professional team.
"We'll see what Oceania come back with," Pignata said. "Our choice is the O-League, but if that door is shut then we'll see what can happen with Asia."
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Well for a start I don't get why even australia are aloowed into t ACL given the fact that their an oceanian nation
Oz is an Asian Country now. Football wise at least.
�
In the 80s Taiwan was part of Oceania and Israel are part of EUFA even they they should be Asia or maybe Africa.
Israel are in UEFA for political reasons. They used to be in the AFC (in fact were Asian Champions at one point in the 1960s), but the potential of having to play matches against Iran, Palestine, Syria, Lebanon and Saudi Arabia, with all the attendant possibilites, prompted the Israelis to join UEFA.
Suspect the Taiwan situation was similar.el grapadura2008-04-15 12:35:42
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I have already posted this on the Youth League thread, however the following excerpt is relevant to the Phoenix competing in the Club World Cup http://www.stuff.net.nz/4479749a1823.html
The Phoenix, however, remain in no-man's-land regarding the Club World Cup.
Fifa has said they could compete in the O-League but, should they
win it, they would not be allowed to represent Oceania at the Club
World Cup because they play in an Asian league (the A-League).
But the Phoenix are also unable to progress through the Asian
Champions League should they win the A-League, because they are based
in Oceania.
"It mystifies me a little bit as to where we sit," Pignata said.
Oceania Football Confederation is appealing to Fifa, which has
previously stated that the region must be represented by a fully
professional team.
"We'll see what Oceania come back with," Pignata said. "Our choice
is the O-League, but if that door is shut then we'll see what can
happen with Asia."
That sound so silly, it has no logic. . . . typical FIFA reasoning.
FIFA allows the Nixs to compete in an OFC competition but if they win it then they cant represent OFC? Crazy logic since by allowing the Nixs in the O-league is also a statement of admission by the FIFA that the Nixs is also an Oceania team. If they are an Oceania team to enter O-league, then they should be considered an Oceania team to represent OFC if they win O-league. Its the logical pathway. If AFC rejects them and OFC accepts them, is it not obvious where they lie?
So what happens if they win both A-league and O-League? (which is a very realistic possibility). Then most dominant club is all of Australia and New Zealand can't enter into the next stage for the Club World Cup competition. How silly is that? Let say we add for good measure, that Melbourne or Sydney came second behind the Nixs in the A-league and then wins the ACL to go to CWC finals? But yet the Nixs stay at home, not able to progress the finals at all. How silly that would be.
Well I suppose that the "Club World Cup" is not a "World" Cup afterall.
If Oceania comes back with an negative then we may need to legitimise Nix further as an Oceania team and resubmit.
Maybe if the NZF has a knockout tournament that includes the any NZ teams either in the NZFC and A-league or whatever league that a NZ team is in and find such a second winner to go along with the NZFC Grand Final winner. Then if the Nix wins that competition, then that may fully legitimise the Nixs as an Oceania team into the O-league because they had been through a NZF/Oceania competition.
I would like see a NZFC team vs an A-league team match.
I really can't see why the FFA wouldn't allow permission for the Nix to play in such a NZ competition. Especially in the A-league off season when some of the other A-league teams are playing in the ACL.
Sigh. What a ridiculous situation! Can't FIFA get anything right?
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One question that has not been answered yet is:
If NZ ended up in Asia, the Phoenix would not be NZ representative in the AFC. The winner of the NZFC would be NZ's representative in the AFC. Champion of each country's league.
The Phoenix will still have to win the A-league to qualify for the AFC.
The answer will always remain the same until the A-League allows the Phoenix to become their representative if they win the league. Until the Phoenix are champions of a league they will always be an anomaly like Cardiff in the world of Football.
In the world of FIFA that is the facts and FIFA run what suits them when they want it.
P.S. Seriously why would Asia want to inherit the basket case that is Oceania. A bunch of countries that can't pay their own way and are difficult to access and get to. The only advantage for Asia is more votes but even that has limited use.
Marama2008-04-17 15:55:33
If NZ ended up in Asia, the Phoenix would not be NZ representative in the AFC. The winner of the NZFC would be NZ's representative in the AFC. Champion of each country's league.
The Phoenix will still have to win the A-league to qualify for the AFC.
The answer will always remain the same until the A-League allows the Phoenix to become their representative if they win the league. Until the Phoenix are champions of a league they will always be an anomaly like Cardiff in the world of Football.
In the world of FIFA that is the facts and FIFA run what suits them when they want it.
P.S. Seriously why would Asia want to inherit the basket case that is Oceania. A bunch of countries that can't pay their own way and are difficult to access and get to. The only advantage for Asia is more votes but even that has limited use.
Marama2008-04-17 15:55:33
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