Wellington Phoenix Men

Insights from Confederation Cup

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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Insights from Confederation Cup
He dribbles a lot and the opposition dont like it - you can see it all over their faces. (Ron Atkinson)
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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Here's what I have taken out of the Confederation Cup (CC), in the context of the Nix 09/10 season;
 
Losing Smeltz and Moss was a disaster - we all know that already but the CC was a painful reminder of how much we have lost. The positive is Greenacre, Putter, and Crowther or Paston may be able to off-set the losses - in particular having 2 out and out strikers instead of just one.
 
Mulligan and Christie are out of their depth in the CC (and A-League). The positive is Christie has moved on and Mulligan isn't needed for either the starting 11 or bench - subject to injuries.
 
Brown is a blood and guts player (and to be respected for that) but when the skill level goes up a notch he hasn't got the goods. The positive is we have McKain to play DM, the worry is he will have to play centre back if Sigmund or Dura get injured or suspended.
 
Leo has a heart and engine as big as a horse - first choice for me every game.
 
Herbert needs help - I don't want to watch the rubbish we have seen at the CC and had to put up at the start of last season again - defending deep, conservative formations and tactics, long balls... I want a team that is aggressive and looks like it wants to score - the mystery for me is some of the football we played in season 1 was great to watch (same coach, what happened ?). The positive is Luciano Trani - hopefully he can push for a more attacking style.
 
We (Nix) have a good back four and with a midfield of McKain, Bertos, Diego and Daniel and a front 2 of Greenacre and Putter, we have potential. We then need give the players the freedom to go forward, take a few risks and, hopefully, play to that potential.
He dribbles a lot and the opposition dont like it - you can see it all over their faces. (Ron Atkinson)
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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Agree that it was a painful reminder re: Moss but Smeltz hasn't done anything? Admittedly he has had less than 0 service

a.haak

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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
On the rare occasions he got the ball I though Smeltz showed his ability to hold the ball and turn a defender and his goal against Italy was first class.
 
My other thoughts were that we dodged a bullet when we took a pass on Brockie and I can't wait until Killen plays for the Nix - hard, physical and skillful player made for the A-league
He dribbles a lot and the opposition dont like it - you can see it all over their faces. (Ron Atkinson)
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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I couldnt agree more if apart from Ryan Nelson that is the best 11 new zealand can dish up we are in all sorts of trouble.You would expect them to get dominated by Spain,but South Africa is only ranked 77th in the world and they blew us off the park.I agree Mulligan,Christie and Brockie are nowhere near international standard.
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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
matrix wrote:
I couldnt agree more if apart from Ryan Nelson that is the best 11 new zealand can dish up we are in all sorts of trouble.You would expect them to get dominated by Spain,but South Africa is only ranked 77th in the world and they blew us off the park.I agree Mulligan,Christie and Brockie are nowhere near international standard.
 
after their performance against south africa theres only mossy who comes out of it with any semblance of pride..imo

" If you only have a hammer you tend to see every problem as a nail" - maslow

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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
My insight: NZ are absolutely terrible to watch and their performances border on straight up embarrassing.

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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Look on the bright side, at least we don't have Vicelich and Boyens in our squad. Ricki really mustn't rate Steven Old if he's in line behind those two.

I don't think we needed reminding Moss was a big loss, but Paston really isn't that bad.
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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Surely our ranking relates to teams we have played ..thye havnt been that high ranked so the ranking is artificial I believe.  We should play Andorra and see how we go...

A small town in Europe........looking to bounce straight back up....well that aint going to happen

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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
NZ is OFC standard in both players and coaching. Theres only one thing that can be done about it.
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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I think Brownie can do a good job for us, but he has to be paired with someone who can thread a pass.  He also needs to stop marking space and start reading the game, we get passed around far too easily. 
 
Christie has to go, he's just not good enough despite being willing.  Let's all admit that Mulligan was a huge mistake, how he's had a career as a professional footballer is beyond me, he seems to lack even the most basic skills, plus he's incredibly naive positionally.

Normo's coming home

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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Yeah thats true. Your only as good as you last game and all of our last games have been against terrible opponents.
All I can see getting better is possibly with NZF doing better financially we might be able to see some more friendlies against good opposition. But for NZ soccers sake i hope we follow our trans-tasman rivals and cross the ditch to the asian federation.
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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Totally agree......we get all excited when we beat Fiji and New Caledonia but in reality we should be tearing those teams up by a 5 goal margin at least.
 
Unfortunately what is required is $$$$. To get the AW's regular games against decent opposition AND some imput from some good international coaches. i'm not saying dump Ricki but just get more imput from experianced overseas coach's. The tactics playing 442 against Spain were embarassing and niave. Any half decent coach would have packed the midfield and tried to close down the spaces.
 
We still would have lost but a 2-0 loss against Spain gives you some creditibility....0-5 is laughing stock material. Then to not even get out of first gear against SA!!!
 
The real inditement is when you realise a heap of the AW'S wouldn't make the run on side for the Phoenix....christie, Old, Brockie, Mulligan
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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
What does $$$$ have to do with it?

Normo's coming home

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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
You need money to get the AW"S together to play games on a more regular basis. The more they play as a team the better combinations they will develop.
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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
We're well beyond that, the problems with our game (in my mind) are far more fundamental.  The AllWhites will always be poor because we have poor players, we have to work harder to produce better playrs right throughout the system.
 
First thing I'd do, national coaching curriculum.  Then, start byt making a rule that to coach any side at any level (even 5 year olds), you have to attend a half day coaching workshop.  Maybe each club runs it, or the regional coaching director I don't know, even just to show people the basics.  If you want to coach 12 years olds, you got to do the next course.  It's a hugely basic thing, but lets start with something.  Start coaching coaches, even just some basic drills and some idea of how kids should be taught at that age.  In europe 8 year olds are coached byt guys with the same qualifications as Ricki.  That's never going to happen in NZ but th difference between a dad who is enthusiastic, and a dad who knows just a little bit about the game is huge.  And I'm sure that the majority of people will want that information.

Normo's coming home

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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
james dean wrote:
We're well beyond that, the problems with our game (in my mind) are far more fundamental.  The AllWhites will always be poor because we have poor players, we have to work harder to produce better playrs right throughout the system.
 
First thing I'd do, national coaching curriculum.  Then, start byt making a rule that to coach any side at any level (even 5 year olds), you have to attend a half day coaching workshop.  Maybe each club runs it, or the regional coaching director I don't know, even just to show people the basics.  If you want to coach 12 years olds, you got to do the next course.  It's a hugely basic thing, but lets start with something.  Start coaching coaches, even just some basic drills and some idea of how kids should be taught at that age.  In europe 8 year olds are coached byt guys with the same qualifications as Ricki.  That's never going to happen in NZ but th difference between a dad who is enthusiastic, and a dad who knows just a little bit about the game is huge.  And I'm sure that the majority of people will want that information.


I read recently that Aus have adopted a playing formation that all coaches have to adhere to for the junior leagues. Do we have anything like that here??


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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
No, Paul Smalley attempted a small roll out 7 years ago, but that is pretty much gone.

Truth is though it's a pretty simplistic idea, even in Australia there is a lot of disagreement on whether this is the right way to go, and even more on whether the adopted tactic is the right tactic.  I mean how do you develop players with initiative if everything is mandated and in set patterns ?

You might pick up that I'm not convinced.

How's my driving? - Whine here

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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Not that I know of, possibly informally, but I'm not knowledable really as I don't live in NZ at the moment.  Others will know I'm sure. 

By the way I'm not convinced that's the way to go, you don't want a complete generation of kids growing up who only know how to play one way.  Good players can play in any system, we need better players, the reality is that the system isn't really that important.

james dean2009-06-18 23:14:09

Normo's coming home

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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I read it is the Dutch system and it will enable everyone to know the pattern,  even if they are moved round the field to get experience.

They can cover quickly if someone breaks out and uses their initiative




 
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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Take away their playstations and X-boxes!
t all starts with kids wanting to go out and kick a ball with their friends.  Wynton Rufer said it to me and this is true of any sport - if a kid of any age is exceptional at something and has bragging rights over his/her peers they will stick to it.

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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
zinidane wrote:
Totally agree......we get all excited when we beat Fiji and New Caledonia but in reality we should be tearing those teams up by a 5 goal margin at least.
�

Unfortunately what is required is $$$$. To get the AW's regular games against decent opposition AND some imput from some good international coaches. i'm not saying dump Ricki but just get more imput from experianced overseas coach's. The tactics playing 442 against Spain were embarassing and niave. Any half decent coach would have packed the midfield and tried to close down the spaces.

�

We still would have lost but a 2-0 loss against Spain gives you some creditibility....0-5 is laughing stock material. Then to not even get out of first gear against SA!!!

�

The real inditement is when you realise a heap of the AW'S wouldn't make the run on side for the Phoenix....christie, Old, Brockie, Mulligan


You're onto it, there is something tactically niave or lacking when you send out a team to play a 4-4-2 formation when you do not have a right back.

The fact that Mulligan is a hopeless RB should not have been a surprise to Herbert. So why 4-4-2? But hold it what about 4-4-2 with Brockie or Christie in the RM role in front of Mulligan, at this point alarm bells are ringing, our whole right hand side that we're going to play is not good enough for the a-league let alone up against quality international sides.

Our players are not man for man good enough but even allowing for that they should have put up much better showings than we saw against Spain and S Africa. But a 4-4-2 with Mulligan, Christie and Brockie was asking for trouble.

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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
james dean wrote:
.
 
First thing I'd do, national coaching curriculum.  Then, start byt making a rule that to coach any side at any level (even 5 year olds), you have to attend a half day coaching workshop. 
 
Nice idea in theory, but as far as I know the challenge in NZ these days is finding someone to coach a team. If we had a massive surplus of willing coaches, that would be a great way to trim the fat, but currently finding a coach is hard enough. I could be wrong, but I remember many parents with virtually no knowledge of football reluctantly taking on the coaching role because nobody else would do it.
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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
jamesnz wrote:
james dean wrote:
.
 
First thing I'd do, national coaching curriculum.  Then, start byt making a rule that to coach any side at any level (even 5 year olds), you have to attend a half day coaching workshop. 
 
Nice idea in theory, but as far as I know the challenge in NZ these days is finding someone to coach a team. If we had a massive surplus of willing coaches, that would be a great way to trim the fat, but currently finding a coach is hard enough. I could be wrong, but I remember many parents with virtually no knowledge of football reluctantly taking on the coaching role because nobody else would do it.
 
Even more reason for them to have to do some kind of coaching education.  If they have no skills or knowledge wouldn't they prefer to learn something?

Normo's coming home

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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
james dean wrote:
jamesnz wrote:
james dean wrote:
.
 
First thing I'd do, national coaching curriculum.  Then, start byt making a rule that to coach any side at any level (even 5 year olds), you have to attend a half day coaching workshop. 
 
Nice idea in theory, but as far as I know the challenge in NZ these days is finding someone to coach a team. If we had a massive surplus of willing coaches, that would be a great way to trim the fat, but currently finding a coach is hard enough. I could be wrong, but I remember many parents with virtually no knowledge of football reluctantly taking on the coaching role because nobody else would do it.
 
Even more reason for them to have to do some kind of coaching education.  If they have no skills or knowledge wouldn't they prefer to learn something?
 
You could offer basic qualifications/ certificates to low-level coaches at a reasonable cost?
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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

I suppose if you want an excuse why the players were so flat against SA. 5 games in 14 days is a big ask.....maybe some of them ran out of gas. Remember half the team have only just started training for the A-league season.

 Defensively we will be better with having Nelson and Siggy back for the playoffs.But I really hope we get the tactics/selections right for the playoffs. If we go to the middle east and play two strikers and leave big gaps infront of the back 4 we will be carved up. Park the bus away....hope for at worst 0-1 then attack them at home!.....and please no Mulligan/Plodder/Brockie down the right
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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

At junior level coaching is purely voluntary and the effort and time is dependent upon work/family committments.  My kids' club offers to cover coaching course costs which is a big investment by the club.  Unfortunately I have not been able to spare the time to attend any of the suitable courses.  Coming up to an age where coaching skills become important to develop all players (good or so-so) and keep their interest in the game going my contribution will be limited or at the end of its time. 

It would be nice if Capital Football either a) ran more courses at a range of times or b) canvassed junior coaches at the start of each season as to suitable dates/times for courses.

Just a thought and depends on the resources and finances available to CF. 

Presumably once CF has got a pool of trained coaches it would also seek to retain them as much as possible - rugby seems to look after its junior coaches with gear, complementary or discounted tickets to NPC, S14 and test matches.

"Phoenix till they lose"

Posting 97% bollox, 8% lies and 3.658% genuine opinion. 

Genuine opinion: FTFFA

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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
hepatitis wrote:

james dean wrote:
We're well beyond that, the problems with our game (in my mind) are far more fundamental.� The AllWhites will always be poor because we have poor players, we have to work harder to produce better playrs right throughout the system.
�

First thing I'd do, national coaching curriculum.� Then, start byt making a rule that to coach any side at any level (even 5 year olds), you have to attend a half day coaching workshop.� Maybe each club runs it, or the regional coaching director I don't know, even just to show people the basics.� If you want to coach 12 years olds, you got to do the next course.� It's a hugely basic thing, but lets start with something.� Start coaching coaches, even just some basic drills and some idea of how kids should be taught at that age.� In europe 8 year olds are coached byt guys with the same qualifications as Ricki.� That's never going to happen in NZ but th difference between a dad who is enthusiastic, and a dad who knows just a little bit about the game is huge.� And I'm sure that the majority of people will want that information.
[/QUOTE]I read recently that Aus have adopted a playing formation that all coaches have to adhere to for the junior leagues. Do we have anything like that here??[/QUOTE]

This is the information that Aus is doing:

AUSTRALIA'S FOOTBALL REVOLUTION

* Skills program (1500 drills) to be used as foundation training at age six.

* Elite development pathway to start with eight-year-olds.

* Stricter implementation of youth coaching licences at junior levels; compulsory qualifications for all senior levels.

* 4-3-3 mandated as preferred formation for all teams, once 11-a-side football starts at age 13.

[quote=smh.com.au]For the 450,000 players of all ages about to step onto pitches across the country this weekend, the evolution of the way football in Australia is played is about to become a revolution.

Dutchman Han Berger, the national team's new technical director, dreams of a new generation of players reared with skill, rather than strength, and the Socceroos being a top-20 team and challenging to win the World Cup in 2018.

The first seeds were sown last year with the introduction of small-sided games for players up to the age of 12. Now, the winds of change are about to blow much harder as small-sided games will be refined even further. Coaching licences will become mandatory at many junior levels. Training sessions for younger age groups will become exclusively based on ball work, not conditioning.

The elite development pathway will start at the age of eight, and identified players will be have access to qualified skills coaches up to the age of 13.

All teams, even those at community level, will be encouraged to adopt a 4-3-3 system, which will, in turn, be the tactical platform for all national teams, including the Socceroos.

There is more than a whiff of the KNVB (the Dutch football association) in the new blueprint. Was it simply a reprint, Berger - a former KNVB technical director - was asked?

"No, not at all," he replied. "I don't think I have to explain myself, or defend myself, on this."

If it's not a Dutch curriculum - and the selection of a Norwegian community-level training program and incorporation of a futsal component into the small-sided programs does suggest a broader perspective - then it must follow that the coaches charged with implementing it won't necessarily have to be Dutch?

"No they won't," he said. "My aim is that these positions, as much as possible, will go to Australian coaches."


http://www.smh.com.au/news/sport/football/berger-with-the-lot-dutchman-releases-our-football-master-plan/2009/05/01/1240982406760.html

I have posted in bigsoccer.com a reply to some of the Australian posters reluctance in adopting this as follows:

[quote=AllWhiteBeliever]I understand the hestiation of using 4-3-3. But this is about Youth development not senior elite. However the benefits of this apporach is that it forces the best of the players to specialise their skills more and be more attacking and eventually stronger player for it.

It's about development because having 4-3-3 can be easily turn to 4-4-2 or 3-4-3 or even the fancy 4-3-1-2 or defensive 4-3-2-1 simply by shift only one player in the formation. Sure it seems to out of touch to have one team with 4-3-3 formations but if you have several teams with 4-3-3 you should be able to find players to suit any of the above formations according to the coaches and players compability. It will stimulate players competitiveness. Sure the pressure is on the CM and the CF to perform with the Wide midfielders and wingers being more specialised and there is a bit of space on the midfield width rather than the compact midfield depth, but it is for the specialised development. They really do get more utilisation of space.

When they get to A-league, they will find it easiler to adapt in the different formations. You will find that having 4-3-3 changing to 3-4-3 or 4-4-2 later on in development will bring out the best of the better players so they will freely move between the three blocks of defence, midfield and attack.

If youth development is 4-4-2 you have players to set in their ways and not really getting to move between the blocks as well as they should. They will lazy in learning positional movements. Thereas 4-3-3 is easy to learn where the positions are but also flexible to be learning the movements because of the lateral movements and passing angles will open up. Having 4-4-2 in youth developmemt will strife the lateral movements and you will get the same long pass, small angles and plenty of interceptions and so a messly unskillful development.

Specialising the wingers and the centre forward provides good developmental challenges in attack and teach them good attacking combinations. You will find that a soild CF combining with either one of the two wingers will establish the combination foundations for the two forward up front in the 4-4-2 as well as developing the third forward as a supporting option. This will establish understanding of using the three man movement will break down most defences. You need your Riggs and Rolando types players and encourage them combinations and awareness. The 4-3-3 is the best foundation to work off. Again it helps having a third forward that knows how to combine with the other two forwards up front. It is generally easy to combine two forwards up front but the introduction of a third forward is very tricky to learn. The combinations of three forwards are usually difficult to pull because there is not enough forwards that understands how to play with three forwards upfront and so the third forward is rendered useless and inflexible. By having three forwards in a youth development, this will not be a problem later on and at the end of the day, the combinations of three forwards will potentially overwhelm four in defence by having the intitative of the ball attack. It will test and lift up the defence combination as well. We don't see enough of three forward attacks because there is a lack of development.

If you play three forwards upfront, those forwards can switch to a two forward up front. However, if you play with only two forwards upfront, don't expect them to know what to do if you switch to a three forward attack in the dying stage of the game if you are desparate for the win or the draw being on the backfoot.

4-3-3 will also developing the central forward as well because there will be times that there no support in the centre form the other wingers or midfielders so they are forced to adapt in the game situation. Eventually you will have a forward that is able to do many things and not the one thing. By having a second forward in a 4-4-2, there is too much dependence with a second forward and actually too much lateral movement making those forwards doing too much winger roles where they should learn to shoot/finish and have a better box forward and go forward finishing with lesser lateral space to worry about. They need to learn to met the crosses first and not make the crosses at that stage. Leave most of the crossing to the wingers.

It's about the long term development and if more people follow this, your football will improve greatly.


I got a fairly good feedback on their pm for that piece of writing.

I actually have more positivity in what they are doing, we should install the same. In fact, if we did adopt the same, we will be able to get this started before them because that is the advantage of being a smaller country.

Also, I am a bit bias because it was the 4-3-3 formation that I mainly worked with in my youth days, and it destroyed most 4-4-2 formation teams at the time until the 3-5-2 arrived, in which there was a change on tactics to a 4-3-1-2 or the 3-1-3-3 which did well.
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almost 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Wow you Aussies are years behind.

NZF did much of this quite a number of years ago.  Paul Smalley mandated 4-3-3 for all youth and Federation teams.  Small sided games were pushed down through the Federations, and Small Whites launched a skills based training programme for youngsters.

Unfortunately...heavy resistance and a bunch of personality conflicts ended in Smalley leaving, and taking to court, NZF.  His 4-3-3 mandate lapsed with his departure.  Small sided games were resisted heavily in some regions by administrators and councils who would have to invest in re-deploying fields and goals.  Small Whites has fallen in a heap through a lack of funding.

So, been there done that failed.

If Aussie succeed then they will fly even further ahead of us in the football world.  Sad really.

Incredible stamina. No shame. Yellow Fever.

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