Assuming all the accusations are accurate, WTF is Italiano on! The salary cap is meaningless and ineffective if player overpayments are allowed. Much like the NRL in the 90's when the cap was being ignored by everyone. Hopefully the APL's plans to bring it back under control are effective.
Sorry Chiefy, if you're unable to motivate the team and only focused on (turgid) tactics, perhaps you should just be an assistant manager/analyst again... theprof
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/360668338/wellington-phoenix-beaten-leagues-worst-team-embarrassing-end-season Listened to this and I wonder what the fudge Italiano sees, he claims we've played just a little under most oppositions this season - really? We've been awful. He's happy that we dont have the 2nd place season to look back on - lowered expectations. Full of excuses. Worst for me is that he doesnt see himself as the key motivator for the team! The players are pros and they should be motivating themselves - keeping the morale and motivation and tactics are his function. Add to that - we are a salary capped league blah blah blah the league isnt dominated by the big spenders - but this isnt the case if AFC CEO is to be believed.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/360668338/wellington-phoenix-beaten-leagues-worst-team-embarrassing-end-season Listened to this and I wonder what the fudge Italiano sees, he claims we've played just a little under most oppositions this season - really? We've been awful. He's happy that we dont have the 2nd place season to look back on - lowered expectations. Full of excuses. Worst for me is that he doesnt see himself as the key motivator for the team! The players are pros and they should be motivating themselves - keeping the morale and motivation and tactics are his function. Add to that - we are a salary capped league blah blah blah the league isnt dominated by the big spenders - but this isnt the case if AFC CEO is to be believed.
Man does not sounds like a leader to me.
Might need a refresher on what a high performance framework actually looks like.
Fair point. I think we are seeing the Peter Principle play out here. Chiefy very good as an analyst support person, not so good as a chiefy.
Since2007
Sorry Chiefy, if you're unable to motivate the team and only focused on (turgid) tactics, perhaps you should just be an assistant manager/analyst again... theprof
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/360668338/wellington-phoenix-beaten-leagues-worst-team-embarrassing-end-season Listened to this and I wonder what the fudge Italiano sees, he claims we've played just a little under most oppositions this season - really? We've been awful. He's happy that we dont have the 2nd place season to look back on - lowered expectations. Full of excuses. Worst for me is that he doesnt see himself as the key motivator for the team! The players are pros and they should be motivating themselves - keeping the morale and motivation and tactics are his function. Add to that - we are a salary capped league blah blah blah the league isnt dominated by the big spenders - but this isnt the case if AFC CEO is to be believed.
Normally, after a terrible season we would be able to look forward to the new season and what that may bring - new signings, new coach, more buzz/positivity/change.
I don't feel any of that. What is there to look forward to throughout the off-season? We will have the same coach, most likely same playing philosophy, same excuses if we start the season poorly.
Why do the fans have to put up with this? The core fans will still show up week in, week out (3-5k), but the marginal fans have completely lost interest - and I don't blame them at all.
Even Auckland FC fans have stopped engaging us here, because they know how shark we are.
Ever since that article came out about him being all humble and having imposter syndrome, it's like Chiefs evil twin has taken over. 14 losses for the season is a mood killer, rumours of falling out with your own staff, morale must be an all time low.
i remember a recent interview where he said that this season he'd learnt how important team spirit is.
i thought it was a strange thing to say for a coach at this level. this should be obvious. if it's not obvious, it's a huge part of coach training.
(it was the same interview when he mentioned putting on world class sessions)
Yeah but it only becomes a thing to focus on when the results are bad.
Been plenty of dysfunctional dressing rooms (cricket a prime example but I'm sure there has been a few talented football teams as well), where because the results have been good, the whole team spirit thing don't matter so much.
We will never really fully know what went on fully behind the scenes this season. But Dome has alluded to some big learnings/challenges. The last two games it's been a very flat team going through the motions.
Reset required. Big pre season ahead. No excuses for Chiefy, if the team ain't performing by Xmas
i remember a recent interview where he said that this season he'd learnt how important team spirit is.
i thought it was a strange thing to say for a coach at this level. this should be obvious. if it's not obvious, it's a huge part of coach training.
(it was the same interview when he mentioned putting on world class sessions)
Yeah but it only becomes a thing to focus on when the results are bad.
Been plenty of dysfunctional dressing rooms (cricket a prime example but I'm sure there has been a few talented football teams as well), where because the results have been good, the whole team spirit thing don't matter so much.
We will never really fully know what went on fully behind the scenes this season. But Dome has alluded to some big learnings/challenges. The last two games it's been a very flat team going through the motions.
Reset required. Big pre season ahead. No excuses for Chiefy, if the team ain't performing by Xmas
he is responsible for creating a high performance environment. it could be just as you said, of course.
the interesting thing for me is that this was a point of learning. i wouldnt have thought that this would be new knowledge at this level
Even the best coaches have crap seasons, Why should Chiefy be any different? One decent season doesn't mean we are world beaters but considering we lost some very key players - Paulsen, Kraeve etc, that does have an impact. Sure the rolling of the dice on Rojas did not pay off, but at least it was an attempt to improve things. Give the guy a break. Let's see what happens over the next few months. Wrexham next up. I previously suggested Paul Mullen as a possible signing but then the family issue was brought up. So what about Ollie Palmer? Big lump of a forward that also scores??
Proud to have attended the first 175 Consecutive "Home" Wellington Phoenix "A League" Games !!
Even the best coaches have crap seasons, Why should Chiefy be any different? One decent season doesn't mean we are world beaters but considering we lost some very key players - Paulsen, Kraeve etc, that does have an impact. Sure the rolling of the dice on Rojas did not pay off, but at least it was an attempt to improve things. Give the guy a break. Let's see what happens over the next few months. Wrexham next up. I previously suggested Paul Mullen as a possible signing but then the family issue was brought up. So what about Ollie Palmer? Big lump of a forward that also scores??
Nah, he deserves every lick of criticism he's got I think. He's shown to be a very poor man manager and really seems (from what he has presented to us from tv appearances) to not really be understanding why things haven't been working.
This is leadership 101 and he doesn't seem to get it. Maybe he's more of a spreadsheet boffin than a people person? I don't really know.
For me, one of the most damning marks against Chiefy was how al-Taay finished up with the club.
Considering how much everyone made of their previous working relationship, it seemed to finish like an absolute damp squib and a limp mid-season release. That's odd, I don't care what anyone says.
I have no issue with holding Italiano accountable for the clear recruitment and man management issues, there were plenty - Rojas was always a mistake, the treatment of Ball and A-Taay leaving are the three really big ones for me. Those are all on Italiano first and foremost - I'll go easy on him when he actually takes some responsibility for his decisions tactically and recruitment. I think we are all tired of his excuses for why this season went the way it did - if he fronts up and owns his mistakes and says he has plans for next season to be better then I'll be 100% behind him.
Prof said: if he fronts up and owns his mistakes and says he has plans for next season to be better then I'll be 100% behind him.
I think this is the worst thing.
We remember last season well Gilly. We’re not a tough fan group though. Don’t BS us and we’ll be fine. We’re comparatively easy. No fan revolts, no flares, no complaining about the FFA and so on.
Just don’t tell us we’re getting tomato cream soup as a starter and serve up vege stock with corn starch in it and tell us that’s mains too and we’d better eat it and like it. For 3 months.
And yeh if he doesn’t trust Conchie, rather than give him 5 mins here and there for a whole season let him be in the reserves the way Rufer was (and how he was familiar with Paulsen and Surman). Or let him go. Don’t have a bench of players, 60% of whom you don’t think can do the job.
I don’t get this whole narrative around lacking a pre season, and players not understanding the game plan due to being on leave for international duty.. nix picked up 3 wins in the first 7 games, then only 3 wins in the next 19… is this a footballing case of Benjamin Button? The more time they spent together the less they understood each other and the game plan??
I wrote a more detailed post on another thread, but this is the main thrust of it...
I think a huge concern is this very basic timeline...
1. Chiefy reappointed 2. Plays 2nd bottom team - lose (give up 30 shots to 6) 3. Plays bottom team - lose (1 shot on goal)
That speaks of little interest in fighting for the coach IMO, no goals either. Hugely simplistic I know, but with the prospect of avoiding a trip to Darwin they couldn't rise to that.
"You can never get a bloody tradesman at Easter, it's a wonder Jesus got crucified" - Karl Pilkington
The thing I am most worried about is that Chiefy's style is to cede the vast majority of possession & territory and relies on quick vertical counterattacking transitions to score. There is almost no evidence he can implement anything else effectively. We had one half all season where our style of play was pleasant to watch, the Rojas start at Sky vs Macarthur. Even earlier in the season when we were getting decent results it was not pretty (the win vs Victory in Sydney a prime example). And it certainly wasn't pretty when we stopped getting results. Last season was only fun because we were winning.
If he can't do anything else, and it is hard to be optimistic that he can, is this the identity we want as a club? Even if it is effective again next season, is this going to be helpful in getting people along to games? Does this style get forced upon the academy too?
The thing I am most worried about is that Chiefy's style is to cede the vast majority of possession & territory and relies on quick vertical counterattacking transitions to score. There is almost no evidence he can implement anything else effectively. We had one half all season where our style of play was pleasant to watch, the Rojas start at Sky vs Macarthur. Even earlier in the season when we were getting decent results it was not pretty (the win vs Victory in Sydney a prime example). And it certainly wasn't pretty when we stopped getting results. Last season was only fun because we were winning.
If he can't do anything else, and it is hard to be optimistic that he can, is this the identity we want as a club? Even if it is effective again next season, is this going to be helpful in getting people along to games? Does this style get forced upon the academy too?
possession in the alm can be very game state dependent. If you looked merely at possession as some metric for success there's not a strong correlation. This season afc were 10th for possession, we're 12th. Last season ccm were 10th we were 8th. 3 of the top 6 possession based sides didn't make the finals (sfc being top). Our game against Perth we had our highest possession for the season - at almost 60% for that game, maybe we should have stuck to defending deeper and not allowing space behind which Taggart exploited?
I don’t get this whole narrative around lacking a pre season, and players not understanding the game plan due to being on leave for international duty.. nix picked up 3 wins in the first 7 games, then only 3 wins in the next 19… is this a footballing case of Benjamin Button? The more time they spent together the less they understood each other and the game plan??
I'll preface this by saying I'm not pleased at all with how we've been playing towards the end of the season. I'm a supporter of Chiefy personally but the last two games I was really saddened by - especially the last one.
To play devils advocate to your post - every time we started to look good typically aligned with one thing. That was having a recognized attacking playmaker ideally starting the game. Basically either Rojas or Chico. The wins at the start of the season were mostly grit and determination plus a bit of hope that things would improve once Rojas was back.
If you are to believe Chief - the nicer looking way he wanted to play the team was reliant on a playmaker of sorts to structure the team around. Without this it fell apart more and more throughout the season.
I'll also add I've always thought that Chief's main fault was structuring his team around one player - Rojas. Other smarter posters than myself have done that point to death though.
I’m conflicted on how I feel about him, you hear reports of “he’s lost the team” “he’s lost the staff” and then you start seeing this in players and staff leaving…… but this is happening at every club players and staff move on. I guess we will know next season if it’s the right call, so I’ll support him (not that he cares) and if it doesn’t work I’ll wish him well and support the next coach.
I’m conflicted on how I feel about him, you hear reports of “he’s lost the team” “he’s lost the staff” and then you start seeing this in players and staff leaving…… but this is happening at every club players and staff move on. I guess we will know next season if it’s the right call, so I’ll support him (not that he cares) and if it doesn’t work I’ll wish him well and support the next coach.
We win 3 out of 19 or 21 or some horrendous stat as a professional football club and you’re conflicted?
Our game plan is to stand like statues at the box and have teams take endless shots at our goal. So long as we are going to lose every game doing that maybe we could try something else. We may have injuries, no time to gel, not a long enough pre season with too many internationals and all the rest but where the heck is a different strategy and some ownership by the coach around that.
I’m conflicted on how I feel about him, you hear reports of “he’s lost the team” “he’s lost the staff” and then you start seeing this in players and staff leaving…… but this is happening at every club players and staff move on. I guess we will know next season if it’s the right call, so I’ll support him (not that he cares) and if it doesn’t work I’ll wish him well and support the next coach.
We win 3 out of 19 or 21 or some horrendous stat as a professional football club and you’re conflicted?
Our game plan is to stand like statues at the box and have teams take endless shots at our goal. So long as we are going to lose every game doing that maybe we could try something else. We may have injuries, no time to gel, not a long enough pre season with too many internationals and all the rest but where the heck is a different strategy and some ownership by the coach around that.
Like any nix fan I’m gutted how our season went, and yes I’m conflicted, he had a great season last season and a shark one this time round, was last season a fluke or was this season what he’s actually capable of? How much did club financials or input from the higher ups impact his recruitment? Did he get who he wanted or did he have to make do with what he could get? I’m hoping that with the club throwing there support behind him they might allow him more financial freedom rather then just making do with academy kids. But I also do agree with what you said (sorry paraphrasing) about accountability. I’m not defending his tactics I’m just saying I’ll support him hope he does well as I love the nix and if he fails I’ll support the next coach
I’m conflicted on how I feel about him, you hear reports of “he’s lost the team” “he’s lost the staff” and then you start seeing this in players and staff leaving…… but this is happening at every club players and staff move on. I guess we will know next season if it’s the right call, so I’ll support him (not that he cares) and if it doesn’t work I’ll wish him well and support the next coach.
reports? rumours more like - I dont recall seeing any actual reports from trusted sources that would indicate the staff and players are lost.
I’m conflicted on how I feel about him, you hear reports of “he’s lost the team” “he’s lost the staff” and then you start seeing this in players and staff leaving…… but this is happening at every club players and staff move on. I guess we will know next season if it’s the right call, so I’ll support him (not that he cares) and if it doesn’t work I’ll wish him well and support the next coach.
reports? rumours more like - I dont recall seeing any actual reports from trusted sources that would indicate the staff and players are lost.
Sorry yes rumours not reports from official sources
Not sure where to put this but Chiefy's area may work best. I read the forum and want both NZ teams to do well always and wish that we won silverware before our northern foe.
However it seems like both Chiefy/Dome are rattled with the success of Auckland FC and make any excuse in the book to play the smaller brother even though we have been in the league for 15 years.
If the fans want Chiefy gone after one poor season after one that exceeded all expectations, fans should be holding Dome and the rest of the board just as accountable and wanting a shake up their too.
FWIW I would not have re-signed Chiefy and looked elsewhere. Maybe someone like Danny Hay who would want to jump up and already has been in a winning environment.
I'm pretty sure Young Heart said something - and I trust his opinion... he normally has the good sauce.
He said there were issues in the playing group and staff but crucially also said that it wasn't anything out of the ordinary for a team performing badly. Other people on this forum who claim to have inside knowledge have said much much worse. Not sure I trust some of those guys/gals though
Not sure where to put this but Chiefy's area may work best. I read the forum and want both NZ teams to do well always and wish that we won silverware before our northern foe.
However it seems like both Chiefy/Dome are rattled with the success of Auckland FC and make any excuse in the book to play the smaller brother even though we have been in the league for 15 years.
If the fans want Chiefy gone after one poor season after one that exceeded all expectations, fans should be holding Dome and the rest of the board just as accountable and wanting a shake up their too.
FWIW I would not have re-signed Chiefy and looked elsewhere. Maybe someone like Danny Hay who would want to jump up and already has been in a winning environment.
Danny Hay? - your having a laugh - there's a reson he'ss an assistant at AFC and not still the boss at Perth.
players improve every week on the training pitch, so do coaches.
i didn't enjoy hay's reign in charge of the AWs, but there's every chance that he has improved significantly since and will be an excellent head coach in the future.
Hay never coached the Glory. He coached in the WA NPL.
Odds on he is the next Auckland head coach when Corica leaves (1 more season?)
Hay has a reputation as a polarising coach (as far as I can glean that from reading). I cannot recall that he was ever a candidate at the Nix, for whatever reason (could be just availability, or licence, or sth else).
Actually, getting outplayed quite a bit these days
Hay never coached the Glory. He coached in the WA NPL.
Odds on he is the next Auckland head coach when Corica leaves (1 more season?)
Hay has a reputation as a polarising coach (as far as I can glean that from reading). I cannot recall that he was ever a candidate at the Nix, for whatever reason (could be just availability, or licence, or sth else).
as a player, he wanted to live in auckland and be flown in for games without training.
that's approximately where any nix love for him ended.
There is not any tension as such at the practices. The Chiefy tells them what to do and they do it. It's just at practices, they do it 100 times better than on match days.
Proud to have attended the first 175 Consecutive "Home" Wellington Phoenix "A League" Games !!
There is not any tension as such at the practices. The Chiefy tells them what to do and they do it. It's just at practices, they do it 100 times better than on match days.
I’m conflicted on how I feel about him, you hear reports of “he’s lost the team” “he’s lost the staff” and then you start seeing this in players and staff leaving…… but this is happening at every club players and staff move on. I guess we will know next season if it’s the right call, so I’ll support him (not that he cares) and if it doesn’t work I’ll wish him well and support the next coach.
We win 3 out of 19 or 21 or some horrendous stat as a professional football club and you’re conflicted?
Our game plan is to stand like statues at the box and have teams take endless shots at our goal. So long as we are going to lose every game doing that maybe we could try something else. We may have injuries, no time to gel, not a long enough pre season with too many internationals and all the rest but where the heck is a different strategy and some ownership by the coach around that.
"Our game plan is to stand like statues at the box and have teams take endless shots at our goal"
Not quite.
Our game plan is to stand like statues at the box and have team take endless shots at our goal. Then if we get the ball, our game plan is to either pass it backwards and sideways in our own third under a full-court press, make a mistake, lose possession, and then defend again.
Or if we decide to switch it up, stand like statues and then hoof the ball up field to Kosta to try and score a lucky breakaway.
Not sure where to put this but Chiefy's area may work best. I read the forum and want both NZ teams to do well always and wish that we won silverware before our northern foe.
However it seems like both Chiefy/Dome are rattled with the success of Auckland FC and make any excuse in the book to play the smaller brother even though we have been in the league for 15 years.
If the fans want Chiefy gone after one poor season after one that exceeded all expectations, fans should be holding Dome and the rest of the board just as accountable and wanting a shake up their too.
FWIW I would not have re-signed Chiefy and looked elsewhere. Maybe someone like Danny Hay who would want to jump up and already has been in a winning environment.
Danny Hay? - your having a laugh - there's a reson he'ss an assistant at AFC and not still the boss at Perth.
Ok so not Danny Hay, I was just trying to find a name that knows NZ Football that could realistically come. Des will try get another job in the EFL too.
if we are gonna replace Italiano, which we are not for next season - but if we do decide he has to go we shouldn't be restricting ourselves to managers who know the NZ landscape - its a small pool and even smaller when you need a A licence. We should be looking for someone who brings in new ideas and a winning plan.
