Nix U-20 - getting ROF home games!
Permalink
Permalink
Top marks to Phoenix management for pursuing the idea of having an U-20 side (based in Sydney if that's the only way to do it), in the new FFA National Youth League.
The FFA plan is to have these NYL U-20 teams play the curtain-raisers for A-League fixtures. So if CCM plays Adelaide, for instance, the young talent from those clubs would be on display as the opening act. Except for our boys!
Nix CEO Tony Pignata is on record as saying Wellington would be unlikely to gain any home matches and that the FFA would just meet travel costs within Australia.
I assume that means the FFA would be prepared to fly other teams from Perth, Brisbane, Adelaide, etc, to Sydney to play Nix U-20 "home" games. Any other scenario would seem unfair.
Would the FFA really object if some way could be found (at no additional cost to them) to then transport both teams on from Sydney to Wellington?
This would let both sides play genuine curtain raisers for their seniors (as proposed by the FFA). It would also provide (clich� alert!), a "level playing field" by giving the Nix U-20s genuine home games in front of home town fans. (Sydney might be their base, but for the Nix U-20 squad, Wellington and the ROF would remain their "real" home.)
This could be possible with enough Sydney-Wellington airfares and accommodation.
Does Air New Zealand currently provide sponsorship to the Nix? Does any airline?
Is there a hotel in Wellington that would provide overnight accommodation and meals for two U-20 teams for Nix home games? (How about a backpackers hostel? No, that's silly, but let's think laterally!)
I'm sure Perth Glory, or CCM, or Adelaide - or any team in the A-League - would prefer to have their young squads with them playing meaningful curtain raisers before senior games on either side of the Tasman.
Finding a way for the Nix U-20s to play at the ROF would benefit everyone.
Any bright ideas out there in "Yellow Fever" land as to how we can find what we need to make this happen?
Permalink
Permalink
Qantas are FFA sponsors, so there is no way they would allow Air NZ to sponsor the Nix
When Hibs, went up, to win the Scottish Cup - I wisnae there - furfuxake!
Permalink
Permalink
Let's work towards getting the side in the league first, I get the impression it's going to take a stack of lobbying.
Permalink
Permalink
Let's work towards getting the side in the league first, I get the impression it's going to take a stack of lobbying.
If we can offer the NYL a more balanced draw by finding a way for the Nix U-20s to play real home games (at the ROF) and help make the NYL a "win-win" for all the A-League clubs, it could be viewed as a plus, not a minus during negotiations. 
scribbler2008-03-10 12:32:13
Permalink
Permalink
The NYL is already a win for the Aussie A League clubs. I can't see how any of them is going to be especially excited about having to do MORE travel.
Would be lovely to have a youth league team playing home curtain raisers but I can't see a winning argument in there anywhere.
Incredible stamina. No shame. Yellow Fever.
Permalink
Permalink
I'd say make sure we get a league side definetly before we try to bring the games to wellington
Permalink
Permalink
Good points scribbler. The logic suggests that FFA should not have any objections to flying youth teams to Sydney then the Phoenix paying to get them to ROF for the home games against the youth Phoenix side.
It seems to me that it would be cheaper to base the Phoenix youth team in Wellington and just pay to fly the opposition in from Sydney for the home games.
It would save a fortune, you would not double up on physio's, managers etc. Plus the youth guys could train with the senior Phoenix all week.
It was interesting that Terry P said they would be happy to have 10 Aussie youngsters in the Phoenix youth side if it helped them get in the comp. Obviously they see the value in playing Four seniors each week in the Youth side. It essentially then becomes a semi reserve grade. With a squad of 23 players, too many players dont get enogh match time.
Permalink
Permalink
An Oz-based youth Phoenix seems a convoluted suggestion at the moment.
Is it better to have a Nix youth team if they have to be based in Australia and can't help NZ kids?
I don't think so - I'd rather not have one if they have less than 6 kiwis in the team
Is it better to have a Nix youth team if they have to be based in Australia and can't help NZ kids?
I don't think so - I'd rather not have one if they have less than 6 kiwis in the team
Permalink
Permalink
Still the phoenix not only want to guarantee NZ's football future but their own future- surviving in the a-league. If that means developing some Australian players who will play for us when they are old enough I'm happy with that.
Permalink
Permalink
Yeah, while I'd rather a side full of locals, if the choice is young Aussies in 'Nix shirts vs. no one in a Nix shirt, I'd prefer Aussies.
Permalink
Permalink
Besides, we are even struggling to come up with 10 decent NZ youth footballers LOL 
Permalink
Permalink
What an opportunity it would be for our young players to be based across the ditch and play against the best Aussie has to offer week in and week out, to get noticed and have a chance to shine.
They would lap it up, wouldnt they??!!
Every 2nd game they would be somewhere round the country with our senior team, playing the curtain raiser before them, being in the atmosphere.
Lets not get too fussed yet about whether they play here, get them in there Tony, keep our name out in front, and build a youth base
They would lap it up, wouldnt they??!!
Every 2nd game they would be somewhere round the country with our senior team, playing the curtain raiser before them, being in the atmosphere.
Lets not get too fussed yet about whether they play here, get them in there Tony, keep our name out in front, and build a youth base
Permalink
Permalink
Are the youth players in this new Youth League going to be full time trainees?
Permalink
Permalink
Good points scribbler. The logic suggests that FFA should not have any objections to flying youth teams to Sydney then the Phoenix paying to get them to ROF for the home games against the youth Phoenix side.
It seems to me that it would be cheaper to base the Phoenix youth team in Wellington and just pay to fly the opposition in from Sydney for the home games.
It would save a fortune, you would not double up on physio's, managers etc. Plus the youth guys could train with the senior Phoenix all week.
It was interesting that Terry P said they would be happy to have 10 Aussie youngsters in the Phoenix youth side if it helped them get in the comp. Obviously they see the value in playing Four seniors each week in the Youth side. It essentially then becomes a semi reserve grade. With a squad of 23 players, too many players dont get enogh match time.
Its Tony P and Terry S lol not Terry P
You make some good point but it is cheaper to base in Oz FFA wont pay to fly teams here or us to Oz every second week
Permalink
Permalink
There might be benefits for the Phoenix having some sort of a base in Sydney. NZ teams playing in Australian competitions have often found the travel an issue. Even the trip to Perth for many Aus pro sports teams is a big factor. Similarly, the Australian teams have found it difficult travelling to New Zealand. Maybe it's just a psychological thing, but having a piece of Phoenix land in enemy territory may be beneficial to the senior team as well.
Having the youth team in Sydney may also help build the Phoenix profile in Sydney, develop the Nix fanbase there from all the NZ ex-pats, and therefore benefit the club. There might be some comparison to be drawn from the Birsbane Bears - Fitzroy Lions merger in the AFL, where having enough 'away' trips to Melbourne is important for a Brisbane team.
The Phoenix have also said its Under 20 spots would be for NZers (which is why O'Dor wasn't counted as one). Presumably these players would be in the youth squad, even if the rest were Aussies. Also, young kiwi athletes don't seem to have too much problem moving to Australia to play NRL, or to go to college in the US.
It probably isn't an all or nothing either. Surely some of the home games could be played at the RoF if playing the whole season is too expensive.
Permalink
Permalink
I read somewhere that WP were going to throw about $300,000 at this youth league team to make it work. (i'm not sure where I remember that from but for some reason I do) If that is the case here is my plan.
The WP youth team play in the already created NZ youth league.
Change the rules so that each of these youth teams can play 4 over 20 players.
Align a NZFC Franchaise team with each and they therefore can play 4 of their senior members .
So the League would have
Wellington Phoenix Yth linked to the Phoenix
Auckland City Yth linked to Auckland City
Waitakere Utd Yth linked to Waitakere and so on.
At present Auck/Manukau and the NZ U16 team are entered, I would suggest merging them into one team and you would have a 10 team league that could play home and away and you would still be under $300,000.
It would allow the Phoenix to develop young NZ players and get their others fit and would also allow a huge talent pool of younger players to be on show.
I know this is all a pipe dream but hey it's just an idea.
Permalink
Permalink
Two points.
1, The current youth league sides (apart from the NZ and Auckland Manukau sides) are already aligned to NZFC squads.
2, The Phoenix could not drop senior player or promote youth players as they would have to make an international transfer to do it. You are only allowed one international transfer a year so they could not move back to Aus or back to the Youth league after a single appearance.
Hard News2008-03-11 15:31:56
1, The current youth league sides (apart from the NZ and Auckland Manukau sides) are already aligned to NZFC squads.
2, The Phoenix could not drop senior player or promote youth players as they would have to make an international transfer to do it. You are only allowed one international transfer a year so they could not move back to Aus or back to the Youth league after a single appearance.
Hard News2008-03-11 15:31:56
Permalink
Permalink
Yeah i know they have aligned themselves but they don't allow over 20 players to play which would help the NZFC players who weren;t playing regulary.
Would they really need to transfer? Surely this new youth league could be under the guise of friendly matches no different then playing the la galaxy.
Permalink
Permalink
Would they really need to transfer? Surely this new youth league could be under the guise of friendly matches no different then playing the la galaxy.
It is competition run by the FFA. Players will have to be registered with the FFA.
Even the Galaxy match would have required obligations and player registrations to a nation.
Permalink
Permalink
Sorry I don't really understand, our youth league isn't run by the FFA and thats what i'm suggesting a Phoenix youth team play in. I understand that the phoenix players will be registered with the FFA as they will be contracted players but at the moment we are not playing in their youth league so I'm suggesting a way we can base the team in NZ. These Phoenix players would get a min of 18 games which would be great for their development and fitness as well as helping the other development sides in the league. I;m suggesting that my new made up league be a tournament run by NZF who i'm hoping would have the wisdom to make allowances for any of these registration issues you are talking about.
In essence to make it easy all i'm suggesting is that the Phoenix youth team play 18 friendly matches a year.
Permalink
Permalink
Interesting idea NZOWL but 2 things against it for me
1. I think they would develop more in a competitive Aussie league, and that we should be doing all we can to get them included into this one which the Aussies are kindly setting up for us. It seems that Tony and co are of the same mind. We need to be in when it is established, look at how hard it is to get additions to the A league
2. I dont think NZF have the ability to run anything at presenthepatitis2008-03-12 14:59:48
1. I think they would develop more in a competitive Aussie league, and that we should be doing all we can to get them included into this one which the Aussies are kindly setting up for us. It seems that Tony and co are of the same mind. We need to be in when it is established, look at how hard it is to get additions to the A league
2. I dont think NZF have the ability to run anything at presenthepatitis2008-03-12 14:59:48
Permalink
Permalink
The benefit of the Aussie youth league is being able to play four senior players in the youth team, giving them game time in the absence of a reserve league. The Phoenix would not be able to play senior players in the NZ youth league team, and will miss out on that benefit. Plus, by allowing the NZFC aligned youth teams to play 4 senior players, you potentially disadvantage the Phoenix youth team.
Permalink
Permalink
Also, if a WP youth team played in a NZ league then it would be more difficult for youth players to be called up to the senior team.
As HN stated earlier they would need an international transfer before they could play in the A-League and then they would not be able to go back to the youth team without a second transfer. Then if they did they would not be able to play for the senior team again until next season as they would have used their 2 transfers for the year allowed by FIFA.
So what? you say, how often would the youth players actually be needed by the senior team. Well, part of the new A-League youth setup is the rule that any injury replacements in the A-League will come from the youth teams and the FFA is unlikely to give the WP any advantage by treating us any different.
As HN stated earlier they would need an international transfer before they could play in the A-League and then they would not be able to go back to the youth team without a second transfer. Then if they did they would not be able to play for the senior team again until next season as they would have used their 2 transfers for the year allowed by FIFA.
So what? you say, how often would the youth players actually be needed by the senior team. Well, part of the new A-League youth setup is the rule that any injury replacements in the A-League will come from the youth teams and the FFA is unlikely to give the WP any advantage by treating us any different.
Permalink
Permalink
Also, if a WP youth team played in a NZ league then it would be more difficult for youth players to be called up to the senior team.
As HN stated earlier they would need an international transfer before they could play in the A-League and then they would not be able to go back to the youth team without a second transfer. Then if they did they would not be able to play for the senior team again until next season as they would have used their 2 transfers for the year allowed by FIFA.
So what? you say, how often would the youth players actually be needed by the senior team. Well, part of the new A-League youth setup is the rule that any injury replacements in the A-League will come from the youth teams and the FFA is unlikely to give the WP any advantage by treating us any different.
As HN stated earlier they would need an international transfer before they could play in the A-League and then they would not be able to go back to the youth team without a second transfer. Then if they did they would not be able to play for the senior team again until next season as they would have used their 2 transfers for the year allowed by FIFA.
So what? you say, how often would the youth players actually be needed by the senior team. Well, part of the new A-League youth setup is the rule that any injury replacements in the A-League will come from the youth teams and the FFA is unlikely to give the WP any advantage by treating us any different.
great rule, will stop Sydney uasing the old injury rule to break the salary cap 
but - if they stop us having a youth team -then surely we can recruit any injury replacement we like 
so, to be consistent they'll have to let us in to the youth comp!
Permalink
Permalink
Malky I think his idea was to get around the transfer rules by not having the proposed WP youth team actually form part of any league.
Their matches would just be regular friendlies against NZ's Youth League teams.
I don't know if that is achievable under FIFA's rules or not.
Phoenix would have to hold the Youth Players' registrations so that they could be available for them if required. So the players would be registered to the FFA. Whether FIFA has a rule that prohibits players registered in Country X from playing 'too many' friendly matches in Country Y I don't know.
Smithy2008-03-13 09:04:49Incredible stamina. No shame. Yellow Fever.
Permalink
Permalink
Thanks Smithy that was exactly my idea. I mainly thought about it cos I just had the feeling the aussies would do everything the could to stop us playing in their youth league.
Permalink
Permalink
Following is from the Weekender (whatever that is);
If true hats off to Tony P for some creative lateral thinking - having a youth team based in Canberra (hopefully eventually relocated to the RoF) has got to be good for the long term health of the Nix - giving talented young NZ and Aussie players game time while they develop to first team standard and building an emotional tie and commitment to the Nix.
The Weekender:
"We�d like to set up an A-League Youth team in Canberra, as soon as possible,� said Wellington Phoenix CEO Tony Pignata speaking from Melbourne today (Friday).
"We�d like to set up an A-League Youth team in Canberra, as soon as possible,� said Wellington Phoenix CEO Tony Pignata speaking from Melbourne today (Friday).
Full artcile is at; http://nearpost.blogspot.com/2008/03/anzac-united-phoenix-to-raise-youth-of.html
If true hats off to Tony P for some creative lateral thinking - having a youth team based in Canberra (hopefully eventually relocated to the RoF) has got to be good for the long term health of the Nix - giving talented young NZ and Aussie players game time while they develop to first team standard and building an emotional tie and commitment to the Nix.
He dribbles a lot and the opposition dont like it - you can see it all over their faces. (Ron Atkinson)
Permalink
Permalink
this means Draper and Costa + training squad get games right??
but can still be pulled into the first team
but can still be pulled into the first team
Permalink
Permalink
AW ok
But taking youth away from home is a bit drastic
But taking youth away from home is a bit drastic
Permalink
Permalink
this means Draper and Costa + training squad get games right??but can still be pulled into the first team
The other question is, are there 8 or more quality NZ youth players about?
Are there any in the NZFC Youth League who would be able to step up?
Permalink
Permalink
They'll be Aussie kids for sure...as previously discussed right here...
Incredible stamina. No shame. Yellow Fever.
Permalink
Permalink
Yeah and My Friend jake(C.Arnaldo) his cousin tom came from england to play for manawatu but got signed with team welly then phoenix pulled him in the training squad
so its defiantly not just nz
HK_Keeper2008-03-16 21:47:06
so its defiantly not just nz
HK_Keeper2008-03-16 21:47:06
Permalink
Permalink
Its funny aye, while Costa has shown class through the age groups (as well as his brother "G") I betcha not many people knew of Draper/Spoonleys quality before the world cup - the point is, do we wait for another youth World Cup to unravel another potential player or could that player(s) be in the midst of the NZFC youth league - players who are potentially just as good as the Aussies?
Why would we not invest in them too?
Why would we not invest in them too?
Permalink
Permalink
I think we will. For starters they are still certain on the 3 Under-20 spots being kiwi's (last I heard) and I suspect they may well find a way to get some young locals in there, but if you want the FFA to fund it and to get the advantages from it, you make noises about what you are doing for Aus. football.
Permalink
Permalink
Its funny aye, while Costa has shown class through the age groups (as well as his brother "G") I betcha not many people knew of Draper/Spoonleys quality before the world cup - the point is, do we wait for another youth World Cup to unravel another potential player or could that player(s) be in the midst of the NZFC youth league - players who are potentially just as good as the Aussies?
Why would we not invest in them too?
Why would we not invest in them too?
NZ U17's play Austria soon
Scout there
Permalink
Permalink
Great move by Tony, not only will this be good for NZ youth, but it will build support for the Phoenix in Canberra where there isn't another A-league team to compete with.
loyalgunner2008-03-16 22:29:39
loyalgunner2008-03-16 22:29:39
Permalink
Permalink
Isn't one one of the rules for the youth league that they all have to be Australian? I don't think we'll see much, if any, benefit from this if it does go ahead. The only thing we'll get is a place for players to play when they are coming back from injury etc. It's a 'something is better than nothing' move.
a.haak
Permalink
Permalink
I'm considering a Canberra-based Phoenix affiliate a belated birthday present. The only way I'd be more happy is if the Phoenix Yoof played in Nowra! (Like THAT would ever happen...) No conflict of interest for me anymore! 
(In that I'd never have to worry about cheering AGAINST a second team. Even if the south coast got an A-League franchise, I'd cheer for the Phoenix when they meet up!)
Might have to look at adding a Phoenix Youth "home" match to my itinerary if I do go back sometime this year...
(In that I'd never have to worry about cheering AGAINST a second team. Even if the south coast got an A-League franchise, I'd cheer for the Phoenix when they meet up!)
Might have to look at adding a Phoenix Youth "home" match to my itinerary if I do go back sometime this year...
Permalink
Permalink