Phoenix at The World Club Cup?
Phoenix at The World Club Cup?
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/category/story.cfm?c_id=86&objectid=10446947
Is this the right way to get the Phoenix in this competition? I can`t see this happening.
Is this the right way to get the Phoenix in this competition? I can`t see this happening.
We should get a dispensation from FIFA which allows us in the Asian
Champions League, would be way better as we would get heaps more
competitive games if we made it through
shouldn't happen...won't happen...top man at NZF needs to pull his
head in and start supporting the development of the NZFC, find a
sponsor and promote a top national league not call it second rate
...
Calling the NZFC is second rate is actually a compliment.
It's fourth rate tops.
Much as I love going to the matches to watch the mighty City
play, the standard is poor, there is no atmosphere anywhere but
Kiwitea St and we are kidding ourselves if we think it is going to
get any better any time soon.
There is a large football mad section of the community out
there but the NZFC and to be fair, the local clubs themselves, have
done precious little to make them welcome - I'm writing of course
about the immigrant communities.
Start getting them to the games and we might start to get the
NZFC up a notch or two.
But the parochial club-based Kiwi football people
have shown over 30 years that they are not interested in
going along and watching or supporting the local product.
The only reason the Phoenix has a chance, is because it is
precisely NOT that. It is a new Australian game, and it just might
succeed.
know where your coming from but its a different issue. The phoenix
is not a registered team in Oceania & therefore won't end up in
the O league. Their rightful progression is Asia and to aim for
FIFA acceptance that if they win the A league they can then play
there!
Yes Steve, i think that is the direction they should be looking at.
But there are also a few obstacles in the way that way as well.
Then again if FIFA was to say no amateur teams allowed in this
tournament therefore no money to be won. Maybe the NZFC clubs might
see it differently?
sanday2007-06-21 13:21:51
sanday2007-06-21 13:21:51
If that happens Sanday all the more reason for NZF to find a local
sponsor and promote the local game. O league funds are a bonus and
if FIFA cut all Oceania out then we still have to look after
ourselves. Furthermore NZF is reponsible for promoting the game not
sl*gging it off...there are plenty out there capable of that!!!!
I think that the Phoenix should just be classed as an Asian
Confederation team and as such have the same pathways as the aussie
clubs to the Asian Champions League and World Club Champs. On
a second point I love the NZFC and look forward to the upcoming
season. With no Pro team in Auckland it allows Auckland City
and Waitakere Utd to continue their intense rivalry, one O League
title each and with Auckland having yet to be defeated these derby
matches will become huge and great for the NZFC. The
challenge is for the other franchaises to match them.
Manawatu have proven that a well run team can compete and
Canterbury and Wellington should do well this time. Game On I
say!
I agree with nzowl on this, the Waitak vs ACFC rivally is good
and healthy and adds real interest. It's up to the others to try to
keep up.
And on the subject of the O-League I do like the idea of the
Nix against the NZFC Champs as a play-off. That would be very
interesting.
To play in the ACL the team would need to be all Australian players
with only 3 foreigners including Kiwis. That is why it will
never happen.
That is the main obstacle that has to be overcome somehow. Maybe in
future years this can be worked through and solved allowing the
Phoenix to participate in the ACL. Rules can be changed. Never say
never. Do you remember the rules regarding non English players
playing for English clubs in the late `80`s? Was it limited to
four? That rule didn`t last long.
sanday2007-06-21 14:25:32
sanday2007-06-21 14:25:32
First we should decide what makes sense and then worry about whatever rules & regulations are needed to achieve that outcome.
Wellington Phoenix are at the top of the NZ football pyramid.
The NZFC supports and feeds that and then regional club football
supports and feeds the NZFC.
The only reason the Phoenix play in the A-League is because NZ
can't sustain it's own professional football league at that level
(and it's clear that a New Zealand team in the A-League
is a much better stepping stone to the All Whites than the
NZFC).
The Phoenix should play in the O-League as NZ's
representative. They are the best NZ team. That is what is going to
make the most sense to the general public, sponsors, media etc. The
existing rules shouldn't be the driver of decision-making. Rules
should always reflect and produce the desired outcome not the other
way round.
That said, the NZFC also needs NZF's support. The franchises
need something worth playing for in order for them to effectively
play their role in the overall structure. But putting amateur teams
who don't even represent this country's elite into the World Club
Competiton isn't it. The NZFC franchises can bitch all they want
but it's only thanks to FIFA's rather egalitarian generosity that
we've got away with it up to this point. When Sepp Blatter speaks
it's well worth listening because by hook or by crook the man
usually gets what he wants.
I think Graeme Seatter is right to react to the threat of NZ
not getting any acccess to the World Club Champs by suggesting it
should be the Phoenix playing in the O-League. But he does leave
himself open to criticism if he doesn't support that view with
renewed support for the NZFC (a new sponsor and a marketing push
would be a start).
On a related point, whether it's going to the Phoenix or an
NZFC club the formula for distributing any prize money from the
World Club Champs desperately needs to be looked at to ensure it
gets used more effectively. The franchises (or the Phoenix)
only get access to this money through NZF and the existence of the
NZFC and that's where the bulk of the prize money should be going.
The winners should get enough to keep them motivated and that's
it.
Well made points x. The way Seatter is talking he would appear to
see the o league as the way for the Phoenix to go. Whichever way
NZF go there are obstacles.
It is something that my beloved Swans face even now. As a Welsh
club which play in England, they are ineligible for European
competition, through all of the ways other clubs in Europe can
qualify. The Football Association has ruled that none of the six
Welsh clubs who play in England will take their place in the
competition if they were to win the FA Cup or finish in the top
seven (I think) of the Premiership. For those of you with short
memories, Swansea finished fifth in the early 1980s of the then
first division, and Cardiff have won the FA Cup in the past.
So the only fully professional clubs in Wales (Cardiff,
Swansea and Wrexham)are barred from the UEFA club competitions,
while their places are taken by part-time clubs such as Barry, and
Llansantfraid (where? exactly).
I might be biased, but I'm pretty sure most of the Welsh
public would sooner have their best sides in the UEFA competitions,
than the part-timers. I'd even rather see Scumdiff there and
performing on the big stage, and that is a big admission.
And as a Auckland City fan, I'd rather get there by beating
the Phoenix, than by keeping them out. And I would like to see the
Phoenix there if it meant a club, rather than not, which is the
threat Blatter has made to Oceania.
As it stand the Phoenix are in the same boat as the Welsh six,
out in the cold.
That's a good comparison Daikiwi, although the difference would
seem to be that at least NZF are prepared to offer the Phoenix
another route through the O-League (if a bunch of other obstacles
can be cleared out of the way).
Have the Welsh FA never considered allowing the Welsh clubs in
the English leagues to play-off against the Welsh league champions?
Is it only the English FA standing in their way or is it also a
UEFA decision?
That's the problem NZF will have, getting the Oceania
Federation to agree to having the Phoenix in the
O-League. Again, the saving grace may be that ultimately it's them
or nothing from Oceania.
Yeah I hear you terminator but I just can't see Oceania
agreeing...infact a source tells me they have already told Seatter
that in writing!
Still think clearing the obstacles to allow Phoenix into Asia
is the way to go. Remember they are a privately owned professional
club playing in the A league. Then Oceania hope for continued FIFA
support.
NZF make me laugh. Last year the knights had in writing from
oceania permission to play in the o-league. there was an agreement
in place regarding tv rights, prize money distribution and it was
all agreed, but who was it that stopped this plan....
NZS the CEO and the board, now they change their tune and
decide that the phoenix should be in. Why the change in thinking,
simple really the CEO at NZF wants to be the great redeemer.
because it was not him who came up with the idea last year they
scrapped the plan now they want to change it
The change in thinking is simple - the license for the A-League
franchise in NZ is now held by NZF.
NZF are just looking out for their own, which they
should.
Admittedly, trying to block the Knights doesn't really meet my
common sense definition of who should represent NZ in the O-League
but the Knights were a f**king shambles after all and hardly made
it easy for NZF to go along with the idea.
An understandable turn-around by NZF though, given the
circumstances.
We should get a dispensation from FIFA which allows us in the Asian
Champions League, would be way better as we would get heaps more
competitive games if we made it through
Yeah spot on.
If AUS got in, and now NZ is being recognized as a football
country, i dont see why not!!!
Were only across the tasman, im sure people in China think NZ
is just a island off AUS anyway.
If accepted by FIFA what about our Kiwi players?? Kiwis are
classed as foreign players in the A-league and should we sign 19
AUS + 4 Imports?? Then what's the point of having one team in
NZ?
There are all sorts of obstacles...
There are all sorts of obstacles...
The Welsh clubs don't want the Big Three to take part which is
exactly the situation that you have with the NZFC. The Welsh FA
like the NZFA are powerless to do anything about it as they have to
fight for the Welsh FA clubs, while the big three are theoretically
English clubs, even if they can't win a place in those comps.
There has been talk of the Welsh Premier Cup, a knockout
tournament in which the Welsh exiles
play against the FAW club, being used as an avenue
but so far FIFA has blocked it.
So you get the stupid situation where Barry or Neath get
knocked out in the first round of qualifying in front of 600
people, while Swansea, Cardiff or Wrexham (all of which have beaten
big Euro clubs in the past, Benfica being one if I remember right)
who would fill their grounds sit by.
This will be situation with the NZFC v Phoenix.
And Wales is a good comparison because they both have huge
rugby following, and football is the second sport. Similar
populations et al.
Funnily enough that could why Oceania might actually consider
having the Phoenix play in the O-League. If they don't it does
leave NZ looking at it's options and Asia might start to look more
attractive.
If accepted by FIFA what about our Kiwi
players??� Kiwis are
classed as foreign players in the A-league and should we sign 19
AUS + 4 Imports?? Then what's the point of having one team in
NZ?There are all sorts of obstacles...
That is a problem, but couldn't FIFA give us a dispensation? There's no reason for them not to, because they are all for spreading football, and this would definitely spread football.
Will the Oceania confederation exist for much longer anyway, the
logical choice would be to split the Asian confederation into West
Asia and East Asia and combine Oceania with East Asia, instead of
having a confederation of several billion people and high
popularity of the game, with one of 10 million and low popularity
among many of the member countries.
If Pheonix is going to play in the World Club Championships it would have to be through an arrangement where they play via Oceania. This could be done through a two legged play-off with whoever the New Zealand amateur champions where. Then the Pheonix would enter the wider O-League play-offs.
The Pheonix would be ineligible to play via Asia as the possibility may arise where two NZ teams make the World Clun Championships. Whilst Kiwis may be please I believe the rest of the World would take a dim view
So is the Phoenix a New Zealand team or an Australian team??
An A-league franchise means we are under FFA not NZF so we are actually an Australian team under AFC, nothing is related to NZF, but I think the reason we are eligible for Asians Champions League is because of the Kiwi players we've got.
If we have 19 AUS players there is no reason we can't play in the ACL.
But now NZF wants an Australian franchise to join the O-league it might be too hard...
Just my thoughts.
An A-league franchise means we are under FFA not NZF so we are actually an Australian team under AFC, nothing is related to NZF, but I think the reason we are eligible for Asians Champions League is because of the Kiwi players we've got.
If we have 19 AUS players there is no reason we can't play in the ACL.
But now NZF wants an Australian franchise to join the O-league it might be too hard...
Just my thoughts.
So is the Phoenix a New Zealand team or an Australian team??
An A-league franchise means we are under FFA not NZF so we are actually an Australian team under AFC, nothing is related to NZF, but I think the reason we are eligible for Asians Champions League is because of the Kiwi players we've got.
If we have 19 AUS players there is no reason we can't play in the ACL.
But now NZF wants an Australian franchise to join the O-league it might be too hard...
Just my thoughts.
An A-league franchise means we are under FFA not NZF so we are actually an Australian team under AFC, nothing is related to NZF, but I think the reason we are eligible for Asians Champions League is because of the Kiwi players we've got.
If we have 19 AUS players there is no reason we can't play in the ACL.
But now NZF wants an Australian franchise to join the O-league it might be too hard...
Just my thoughts.
Isnt NZF the owners of the club and Terry is the sub owner of
the club?
I thought NZF are the owners because they dont want to stuff
their last chance of having a A-League team up.
Personally think Oceanias future is cloudy to say the least -
the thing that worries me is that if we do become part of Asia
- will that change anything regards the Phoenix qualifying for the
ACL?
If Korean/Chinese/Japanese etc players are considered
foreigners then Kiwi's still would be too.
AFC needs to look at the way Europe do things - I know in
Europe it's about the EU but practically every nation in Europe is
part of the EU. So I think AFC should bring in a rule letting
Asian players play in any Asian league without worrying about
qualifying as a foreinger etc.
Personally think Oceanias future is cloudy to say the least -
the thing that worries me is that if we do become part of Asia
- will that change anything regards the Phoenix qualifying for the
ACL?
You`re on to it. That is the way it will probably go re eligibility
some time in the future. Name a business in Australia where the
company is limited as to the number of New Zealanders they can
employ?If Korean/Chinese/Japanese etc players are considered
foreigners then Kiwi's still would be too.
AFC needs to look at the way Europe do things - I know in
Europe it's about the EU but practically every nation in Europe is
part of the EU. So I think AFC should bring in a rule letting
Asian players play in any Asian league without worrying about
qualifying as a foreinger etc.
Yeah they need too for the sake of the development of Asian
Football.
Welliington Phoenix is a NEW ZEALAND club playing in the AUSTRALIAN
competition.
If it was officially an Australian club, it would be eligible
to play in the Asian club competition and all this discussion would
be irrelevant as they would have a pathway to the World Club
Cup.
It is exactly the same as the Welsh clubs playing in the
English league.
Incidently, the big three Welsh clubs, Swansea, Cardiff
and Wrexham have always played in the English league
and actually preceded the formation of FIFA.
The Phoenix will be in the same situation as the Welsh clubs
even though in reality there situation is identical to Toronto FC
who are eligible for the World Club Cup, through the MLS.
Good point Daikiwi. Thats also what i thought. But then we would
have to abide by the foreigner rule and our team would need to
consist of all Australian pretty much.
We would need to get an exception so look to fifa for
that one.
uncle steve2007-06-25 11:08:05
New Zealand football need quality opposition and we do not get it
locally ie the other Oceania teams.So the National teams need to go
far and away to test there skills and ability.
I favour the move to the Asian Confederation , but the losers
will be the Island teams and the downfall of Oceania ,it would be
a tough call for New Zealnd Football .
shouldn't happen...won't happen...top man at NZF needs to pull his
head in and start supporting the development of the NZFC, find a
sponsor and promote a top national league not call it second rate
...
yup definitly agree with ya on this one.
If we're going to compete in an aussie league we should seek
qualification to the world club champs and anything else through
the specifications of that league.
give the NZFC teams a shot
New Zealand football need quality opposition and we do not get it
locally ie the other Oceania teams.So the National teams need to go
far and away to test there skills and ability.
I favour the move to the Asian Confederation , but the losers
will be the Island teams and the downfall of Oceania ,it would be
a tough call for New Zealnd Football .
I think we should prove that we can consistently beat the
island sides like the Solomans and vanuatu before we decide we're
good enough to even consider moving to Asia.
The Phoenix will be in the same situation as the Welsh clubs
even though in reality there situation is identical to Toronto FC
who are eligible for the World Club Cup, through the MLS.
Except that Canada and the US are both members of CONCACAF.
That and the rules concerning Toronto's imports are a little
different. "In accordance with MLS policies, Toronto FC is
restricted to an 18 man senior roster and a 10 man developmental
roster. Like its American counterparts, the squad consists of both
domestic and foreign players (though these domestic players are
Canadian rather than American). The club is allowed the
MLS-standard four senior foreign players (including Americans) as
well as five younger foreign players. They are also allowed three
additional foreign senior players who must be American." (that's
from their wiki page)
It's a little more confusing than "19 domestics which can be
aus or nz, and 4 imports".I'm not sure what the point I'm trying to
make here is with reagrds to the Phoenix though. I would like to
see them play in AFC champions league as it makes no sense for
teams from the same league to be taking different routes. The AFC
and FIFA should really just take a look at this situation and make
the exception. It's not that hard, seriously. A brief glance would
do.
I think the Phoenix should be able to qualify via Asia, but if we
can't then all the teams who are not eligible for the world club
cup should have a play-off tournament to decide who get's into the
cup(e.g. Wellington Phoenix, Wrexham, Cardiff City and whichever
other teams there are out there in similar positions).
But then again, the clubs in the world club cup are supposed to represent confederations, I suppose we would be under miscellaneous lol.
But then again, the clubs in the world club cup are supposed to represent confederations, I suppose we would be under miscellaneous lol.
As much I as would love to see Wellington in Oceania think about
this: We would be the least deserving club in Ocieania and if
we qualified for the Club World Champs, we would be the ONLY team
to NOT WIN their own league/cup competitions. If you've payed
attention to the Asian champions league, the Aussie teams didn't do
that great although I feel that Melbourne will do better in the
next installment.
I realise that this is bit of a sideways movement for the
column but in the end if this went through and we moved to Ociania,
well, we would have to be the luckest team in the world!
Are the rules regarding limits on foreigners in Asian Champs League
teams really FIFA rules or have they been put in place by the Asian
Confederation? After all there are no such limits in the World Club
Champs.
The other thing to consider is that if NZ were to become part
of Asia and the Nix were allowed into the Asian Champs League,
wouldn't they then have to have 19 NZers (not 19 Aussies) and 3
foreigners (including Aussies)?
If that were the case then we might find that some of the same
players who would have played O League games for their NZFC team on
loan to the Nix for the Asian Champs League.
Not quite sure where I'm going with this... sorry I'll shut up
now and go get some sleep.
Malky2007-06-26 12:11:58