Phoenix outside the A-League. Caution needed?

Just thought I'd capture people's thoughts on this. Likely to be a bit varied. It is around Phoenix's growth as an organisation in area's outside their core business (playing in the A-League). 

The Nix caused a bit of a stir when they half stepped into the ASB Prem and upset the apple cart with teams in that league. Next step was taking over a winter club side, and now I believe they will have a team in the ASB Youth League.

Now the majority of Nix supporters and perhaps sponsors have a winter club. Quite often this is their primary club, with the Nix coming in at number two (or three behind EPL). 

Are the Nix heading towards more clashes with local clubs and thus risk their level of support dropping off?

They have taken a lot of the top youth out of clubs and had conflicts with NZ/Nix games in the winter league.

As an example which I have heard of a couple of local clubs - the Phoenix plan to have a school holiday coaching programme in the next school hols. Someone reckons it costs $250 a day (wtf?). Now traditionally school holiday programmes have helped junior clubs pay their bills by providing some revenue if they are well planned and well structured. The Nix will be eating into the clubs market. The sore point is they have booked up all the turfs leaving a sour taste in the mouths of club executives who should be the stakeholders the Nix want to keep onside.

Are these factors something that the Nix need to keep tabs on so as to not risk alienating an important supporter demographic?

I really doubt that a majority of nix fans have a winter side as their primary club with the nix coming in 2nd. 

Club football is more of a social thing to me, I watch a varied number of games when I can, I play for Naenae and thus support the first team but only on a very social level. 

Having said that, I do think nix need to be careful not to alienate the local football public. The Wellington United incident on the weekend probably didn't do much good in that regard. 

Have no problem with them associating themselves with WU as it was a mutually agreed on decision that both parties decided was in their best interest. Same with ASBP and youth league - those who are against it are mostly those knitters who are against the nix in the first place. Plus that is for a greater good. 

Think you may find there are many of us who have come back to football because of the Phoenix.If because of the Phoenix being on the scene it means clubs have to lift there game  in some areas that has to be good for the game.For to long football have been very much a case of who you know as much as it has been about anything else.

Handled properly i dont see why it should be a problem maybe the clubs need to approach the Phoenix about some of these issues instead of letting things just fester along under the surface.I for one hope the Phoenix are not just being bully boys if thats the case then they need to be brought to account.

How does "damned Phoenix ruining our Cap One" differ from "damned Phoenix ruining our ASB Prem", aka the Knitting Circle?

Feverish raises some great discussion points.

With regard to the holiday programme clinics, if managed properly, this could be a win-win for both the Nix and local clubs. For example, if local clubs partner up with the Nix and run their respective holiday programmes as a joint venture, then there is no reason why both can benefit. 

The Nix implementing their own separate holiday coaching programme(s) will definitely attract junior players at the expense of their own clubs holiday programmes (and some will argue rightly so given their brand and expertise). However, such a situation is not ideal for the local clubs, where they are relying on the exposure and revenue for the coming season. Further, if all the turfs have been locked down by the Nix over the holidays, this itself will be a deterrent, as given the choice of a coaching clinic on turf vs Kaiwharawhara park, I know what one I'd send my kids too.

With regard to the Nix and WU first team - I have no doubt the exec committee made the decision to merge after considering all the facts and would have not made it lightly, and most of us will respect that the reasons for such a move would have been solid. However, my concern/criticism is that the WeeNix players/coaches themselves should respect such a merger and the identity of the club they play under. This includes simple gestures like wearing United gear (not Nix tracksuits), and doing more to represent United as a club. While I am relying on hear-say (given I am no longer on NZ's shores), actions like not turning up to clubrooms after matches etc, is not a good look, especially at an exec level. 

Finally, viewpoints have already been expressed on the presence of the Nix in Cap Prem, and the difference between the recruiting of players to join a squad versus the replacement of an entire established first team. Similar viewpoints would have been expressed when IB and Ole merged - which from some vantage points was a disaster for the club. 

If the motivation is purely to have the Nix youth playing in a competitive grade, then instead of disestablishing a well-known club first team like United, why not have entered the Nix youth team at Cap 3 level (much like what Douglas Villa had to do when they wanted to play in Capital Football) and then earn your promotion, along with your own identity as a team. Sure, it may have meant playing on some muddy pitches, and playing the likes of Wainui/Stokes Valley/Naenae along the way (character building one would say!!), but at least it would have gained the respect of the local clubs the Nix would eventually come up against. Food for thought.

For me the ASBP/Cap Prem junior teams shouldn't be an issue - as long as the WU board okayed it then so what basically? Other clubs might be pissed off but it's just bedding in, sooner or later they will just be another team and people won't think twice about it. If WU players were unhappy with the situation they should direct their anger at the club, not at the Nix. And in terms of a "football community" approach I think that anything which a) gets young kiwi kids into a pro environment, and b) gets them playing competitive games can only be a good thing. I know some people don't view it that way and consider Nix youth/reserve teams in their competition as devaluing it, but that's a cultural issue as far as I can see - and really it's not that different from a local club's 1st team playing in the same grade as another local club's 2nd or 3rd team.

The school holiday coaching sessions are a bit different though. Cutting into clubs' revenue streams is dicey.

Ultimately though I think WelNix haven't engaged as well with the local football community as they could have. There's a lot of young guys who play for local clubs but don't really have an interest in the Nix, at least as far as I've seen. I don't know how exactly they could partner better, but maybe something like membership discounts for registered local players, or Central League or Cap Prem games as curtain raisers at the RoF or something.

At least four players out of 13 in Jnr Jnr's team support the Phoenix, they also happen to be the ones who read the game a bit better too.

as you don't know the club scene - are you sure? I go to Nix games and the people I see are primarily pretty passionate about their club sides (and I know a fair few of the croud). Oh there's so and so from Petone, and the lads from Tawa (not stealing the money box) etc..

I would have thought whatever is good for the development of the Phoenix and NZ Football serves anyones best interest who considers themselves a fan of both. There might be some small concerns from some local clubs but I think it's very good in the big picture.

It's not a situation that is unique to Wellington either.

Brisbane, Newcastle, Victory and City all have youth teams in their respective local leagues, and there might be more clubs that do it that I don't know about.

I understand why clubs and their members might be a bit put out by the situation, but I think FFA, NZF and Cap Football have got it spot on in terms of giving these best players the highest quality development platform possible.

The Phoenix has brought a lot of fans and interest back to the football in NZ (for example myself).  If they use their brand recognition to help get people interested in the other national leagues then I really dont see any negatives.

I wrote a bit about my circumstance here. 

Well done for starting this thread Greenie. Some really good discussion points here.

Key take outs (so far) for me are:

1. There is a need for careful treading/careful thinking here - done clumsily, or wrongly, there IS the potential to alienate people/groups who otherwise might be supporters and/or stakeholders in the Nix
2. What the Nix, and most if not all clubs all want (big picture) is surely not that divergent - everyone wants to grow football, provide pathways for development, etc. The likely differences in opinion are mostly at the "how", not the "what" level; and/or because of the financial implications of certain decisions (e.g. school holiday coaching clinics and booking of turf grounds etc.).
3. It's not clear how different people rationalise their relationship with their club vs. with the Nix. But it seems it is far from a one size fits all answer.
4. I like Conan Troutman's ideas of:

• membership discounts for registered local players, and
• Central League or Cap Prem games as curtain raisers at the RoF or something

Lack of season overlap makes this really hard. Best you can do is ASB Prem, but these are better attended when they are standalone games rather than curtain raisers.

This is kinda where I sit.

What is the main aim here? Is it

a: For club to hold their patch?

b: For players to get some sort of structured set up with above the line coaching?

When you answer that question then you figure out what side of the fence you sit. 

For me, if you can get 20-30 kids into a programme and playing as a team with a better structure and set up than a regular club side with better coaching, that is ultimately going to be in the best interests of the players, and the national team/Phoenix. In the grand scheme of things, I really could not give a shark what some dingy club in blue fudge nowhere think about what the Phoenix are doing to the detriment of their club because the Phoenix are probably doing it infinitely better than the whingers.

If all you are about is your own patch then why would you have a whinge about a player progressing to a better level/better offer/better coaching? Get better at providing those pathways as a club so players stick around or STFU. (I also don't necessarily think that the Phoenix are the only people that can offer better coaching but for the sake of this point I am expressing that view)

Whats next? Damn that West Bromich Albion pinching our Chris Wood. How fudgeing dare they.

The best things I think some of these clubs can do its is to saddle up along side the Phoenix and ask 'How can we help you and ourselves improve football in this area? Do you want our most promising juniors? Can we borrow one of your coaches for 2 hours a week in return?"

Expect more this season.  Hearing rumours of some TV coverage for ASB prem this season and I only see that working at venues where costs are chaeap and equipment already set up...

I feel like that has been tried and failed very recently....

I am reading Bruce Holloway's the National League Debates at the moment.

Back in the early 90's around the time of the Winfield Superclub championship, the proposal for a regional franchise based summer league are motted, and there's a quote from a Waikato programme at the time...

...the rumours were that Waikato (or even Waikato / BOP) would only have one franchise, so the major Waikato clubs (Melville, Claudelands Rovers, etc. - there were 4) were looking at cooperating to found a Waikato United franchise.

There's the suggestion (I think from a match day programme's word from the chairman type article) that each club could:

• put in $1000 towards the franchise
• and in return receive 50 season tickets (to the franchise's games) to sell to the their members to recoup their investment, and generate club members/fans investment and interest in the franchise.

Which seemed to me agreat kernal of an idea...

The clubs could sell the 50 season tickets at just $20 each and break even. $20 for a season ticket is super-cheap. If they sold them at MORE than $20 the clubs would have made a profit.

If all 50 tickets sold at 4 clubsd, that's 200 season tickets. And that is (surely) the beginning of a croud theough the gate.

...

In the end it failed, as after the4 clubs agreed to stop being parachoial and work together, NZFA came back and said no, we don't want conglomerate franchises, we want single club entities. (Shaking my head in disbelief!)

...

Anyway, this idea - not the precise details - but the concept behind it, seems one possible way to attempt to foster club / Phoenix cooperation and alignment.

wasn't that more or less the original idea of the ASBP? But then clubs lost interest for whatever reason and it fell back into being a bunch of winter clubs in disguise. 

That is pretty close to how TeeDubs originally worked.

And Waitakere. Then Bay Olympic got the sulks.

ACFC's Easter tournament was good Sky TV hour's worth of coverage using one camera plus interviewer plus great editing.

If I could ham-fistedly summarise this thread so far, there seem to be two key points bubbling up:

1. What's good for the Phoenix is good for aspiring young professional players and the All Whites and football in general, so we should facilitate and change things to help them however we can.

2. Where this runs headlong into local amateur clubs the Phoenix should tread carefully and respectfully.

It's probably that second point that is the key one. I'm not sure the Phoenix have done that, at least not lately.

Why should they care? 

Well, those local clubs are (as Junior82 illustrated) the Phoenix's market. That is who they need to like them, want to support them, and want to watch them.

So. I think that having the Phoenix in Central League will be good, and having them in the ASBP is good. 

But I also think what's gone on recently with rescheduling Cap Prem games, and (if true) running competing holiday programmes, and so on and so forth is a risk for the Phoenix if they keep doing it.

They could cut off their noses quite easily if they steamroll the local game.

I doubt that is their intention, but the "vibe" of the Phoenix has changed quite a bit in the last couple of years. I think they run the risk of alienating folks.

As a side note on the rescheduled Cap Prem "final". I think they had a reasonable case for that. But I think it was still a poor move for them to do it. They should have respected that competition, and the other clubs in it, more.

How do you mean? For better or for worse? Is this the Ernie effect?

Can you elaborate for us outside of Wellington?

I have found a few players at the higher level (a few, not speaking for all or making a generalisation of any kind) have the attitude toward the Phoenix of "I've played them in their preseason games and they're rubbish - why would I pay to watch that?"

Which is a weird one 

Terry was big football fan, WelNix aren't (or at least weren't when they took over the club). WelNix are expanding the operations into areas that Terry didn't, especially around the youth game. Is the "change in vibe" basically just a result of the change in ownership?

Not only have I had players tell me this but club administrators. I have informed them that without the Phoenix, 14 November 2009 would never of happened not to mention the wonderful World Cup performance of 2010. Since the introduction of The Phoenix, player numbers  have risen at a club level where we are now miles ahead of Rugby which continues to diminish each year.

I am a proud Wellingtonian and after the Jaffa's stuffing up with the Kingz and Knights, I want to ensure that the Phoenix are a success for Wellington.

A lot of Eurosnobbery going around too I think

I think it may be a bit of "I'm better than them because I had a good game against them that one time" kind of thing. Which gets worse when local kids make the team (often ahead of these guys) "oh he's not that great, why would I pay to see that rubbish player play for that rubbish team"

But it's hard to come up with a more solid reason why that attitude exists, I'm only guessing. 

Good old tall poppy?

I wouldn't be surprised that in say 5 years or so the Weenix drop the "United" tag and go it alone, leaving Welly United right up sharke creek!

How about having some under-6s play at half-time?

The AFL did this and it's fun to watch ...

this isn't the under 6's half-time show thread Bevan

It's not? Oh.

What about a dancing pussy cat thread?

It comes down to what the Nix are wanting to get out of running these holiday programmes. I can only think that they are a money making venture and I base this on the fact that the odds of finding and developing a future star through holiday programmes are pretty rare. More success would come from scouting. You can build brand recognition and brand loyalty in other ways, especially if they were to utilise some of their people resources in helping established clubs run their own programmes. Much of this relies on people in charge having an open attitude to having them help out. you are not going to go out of your way to have the Nix hanging around if they are going to swipe all of your good prospects and take them to Wellington United are you? On the other hand, in a partnership you would be quite happy to promote the Nix within your own club and get people on board with supporting the Nix as well as their own club.a couple of years ago here in Napier, we got the coaching staff of Napier City Rovers to run our junior club training sessions under the Whole of Football Plan. Our view was that they were the best coaches to help our kids, we helped pay NCR's wages for these coaches, and always believed that players should play at the highest level that they possibly could and our job was to provide them the ability to be as good as they wanted to be and encouraged them to go somewhere else if we couldn't supply what they needed. It was weird situation in that our club was being coached by NCR senior coaching staff while the NCR juniors weren't. We never lost any of our junior players to NCR either, why would they go when our club provided them everything they needed?

think it's just a case of growing the pie

I don't know how well spread it is, but potentially it could be a franchise in every city