The Big Question - Phoenix for O-League?

Considering Stu Jacob's holds positions with both the Phoenix and TW, anything from Team Welly could be seen as a conflict of interest.

I don't see any point in the Phoenix playing in the O-League. They'd (arguably) be a class above and it would probably ruin the competition for all concerned.

terminator_x2007-12-20 16:31:05

Now we're getting somewhere! I agree that there's no point in even discussing putting the Phoenix in if you don't expect them to represent Oceania at the WCC. So what's the point in either making them play-off against the NZFC champs or even running the O-League at all?

Sure, some misty eyed clowns out there are going to say "but it's not fair, the Phoenix should earn their place, boo hoo". Bollocks. The danger with that is that once in a while they might actually get beaten by a semi-pro side who have their day as "giant killers". It happens to the best of teams. But what happens then? The amateurs go to the WCC having played the game of their lives a couple of weeks before and get their arses kicked. Back to square one.

We are looking for long run consistency in Oceania's performances at the WCC and the Phoenix are the only club in Oceania with a hope in hell of delivering that.

There should be no half measures - if we want the Phoenix in just put them in and abandon the O-League. Split the prize money as fairly as you can to at least provide some financial stability to those who will be missing out..

Direct entry for the Phoenix may be accepted by the NZ sides, at least they still get some money out of it. But what about the rest of the oceania sides that don't get any benefit at all? Or are you suggesting that we divide the money all round? I don't see that as a viable solution...I think the Phoenix should look at being eligible for the ACL.james dean2007-12-20 16:36:11

Phoenix to play winner of O League to qualify - if nothing else it would annoy the Auckland and Waitakere Managers. Either way hopefully Team Wellington will stuff them anyway. 

lol wellington beat the phoenix..???

NZFC teams can NOT compete in the World Club Championships. They simply aren't good enough. If, within two years, Oceania can't prove it's worth in that tournament, we will be kicked out, so it makes sense to let the Phoenix join the O-league to participate at the WCC. Some of the money the Phoenix receive would go to NZ Football, the NZFC teams, and to the club itself. So, in the long run, if the Phoenix were able to keep Oceania's place in the WCC open, NZFC clubs could receive a far greater financial boost than they could from NZFC teams representing Oceania at the next two WCC's before being kicked out.

Hope that made sense

It did.

I must be the only person on YF not to know that the Phoenix are ineligible for the ACL. I'm amazed. No, make that horrified! This needs to be rectified as soon as possible. The future of this club should be tied to the A League ( and by connection Asia) with all the potential rewards that success offers ALL of the A League clubs.

But that doesn't solve the problem of Oceania being kicked out of the CWC because of fielding weak teams! It's very circular, there is no completely right answer, I think the least worst will have to suffice...much like a lot of NZF decisions.

Am i right in assuming the reason the Phoenix are not allowed to play in the ACL has something to do with N.Z. players being classed as foreigners in that competition?
Agree j.d no completely right answer.

I'm not sure who I'd cheer for!

I'd probably just shout "GO WELLINGTON" and hope for a draw

If the Phoenix played in the ACL that'd make it easier on me. WPFC in Asia, Team Welly in Oceania. Easy.

The European competitions have no restrictions on imported players (some nations extend domestic conditions to sides form the nation that play in Europe - see Denmark).  The Asian Champions League has a 3 import restriction.

That isn't the reason why NZ sides are not elligible though, it's because the Aussie clubs would whine if we represented Australia.

I think it's more with the franchise being a national representative than the players. The FFA doesn't want an NZ-based team to represent Australia, it'd be embarrassing and wouldn't help the FFA with their aim to develop the sport in Australia. It'd help us a lot, but that's NZF's problem to deal with, not theirs.

on the matter of the benefits of somehow belonging to Asia ...

People didn't turn up to Vanuatu though, would they turn up for Bahrain or Quatar?  I'd love to say yes, but really, are we sure??  I think NZ is still a pretty green football audience, unless it's got premiership written all over it a lot of people still aren't interested

That's absolutely right.

Yet another reason to join the AFC...

Yep, but would you get 20-30,000 to watch Bahrain and Qatar in NZ right now? I would think not.

The All Whites profile in New Zealand is quite low (unfortunately), and for the average pundit who knows little about international football, and of whom you'd need thousands of to turn up to get the sort of crowd that you're talking about, Bahrain isn't that much different to Vanuatu.

Having said that, I agree that Oceania is a black hole sucking life out of NZ football. But even assuming that NZF resolves all the issues over joining AFC (financial, FIFA approval, etc) and actually joins up, the crowds would I think improve, but only gradually. I think teams like Australia, Japan and South Korea would draw good crowds straight away because of their profile, but others would take time. The other factor would also be that the AWs would in all likelihood be on the losing side in most of these encounters, at least in the first few years, and with general NZ sports crowds being notorious for only turning up when things are going well (with honourable exceptions, there, a little self-serving pat on the back for myself and the rest of the Feverites), the attendance would not boom the same way it is in Australia. The crucial difference being that the Socceroos profile is at an all-time high, and they're a good side which the Australian public expect to play well and win games like these, comfortably. The AWs and the general NZ public are some way from that at the moment.
el grapadura2007-12-22 23:23:17

Still the Vanuatu game wasn't marketed well and on a mid-week day.

I accept some of that to a degree. Marius Lacatus2007-12-22 23:33:30

Completely agree with your first point.

I think, however, there's a bit more to the second one. If (hopefully when) we have a game at home which will go a long way to determining whether we go to the World Cup or not, I'd say a crowd of 25-30,000, if not more, is a distinct possibility, even if the opponent is a low-profile team like Bahrain or Uzbekistan. But series of home qualifying games for Asian/World Cup will be susceptible to factors such as AW performance. Say, we play two away Asian Cup qualifiers early on, get hammered in both, and everyone realises that not only are we not likely to qualify, but would in fact likely lose most of our games. How good would the crowds be in that case?
I'm not trying to argue against your point of joining the AFC, because that is the right move for NZF to make, but rewards of such a move are in my view, long-term, with a decent chunk of short-term pain (both financially and on-field) to be endured first.

By the way, I'd very happily be wrong about this...

I think NZF needs to prove itself in Oceania before trying or thinking about joining Asia. convict2007-12-23 05:19:09

Its not a case of NZF joining asia but Oceania joining asia. and that means the champion of that comp at what ever level representing it, be it the solomans beach soccer team or the fijian U20s

There's no good reason why they shouldn't be.  The National League clubs are only complaining due to the fact that the Phoenix are half decent whereas the National League aren't, so they have the fear of losing. That dooms them from the beginning. I guess they could argue that The Phoenix are technically eleigible for the Asian Champions League but that's about the only semi-credible reason I can think of.

Sam, I think you over estimate the effect joining asia has had on the socceroos profile.  I hink it is almost exclusively down to the WC, they still  talk about it over here I'd say once a week on the news.  That match v Kuwait was in the middle of the single biggest football high in NZ history, and I think Aussie are there at the moment. 

Tommy Smyth is a very average pundit, he also knows little about football.

Do we have to mention that imbecile with a 'Y' again on this forum folks....????????????