The Big Question - Phoenix for O-League?
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Should the Phoenix be permitted to compete in the O-League and represent Oceania at the Club World Cup? This is a very important and topical debate for NZ Football, the Oceania Federation and Fifa.
Dom Post football writer, Fred Woodcock, makes his views clear
in this morning's paper. We have posted his opinion article in our
features section. You can find it at http://www.yellowfever.co.nz/show-news.asp?ID=1434
Yes, there has been considerable banter about this question on
the forum already, but it remains a major issue for football in New
Zealand. So, if you have a view on the issue or Fred's column, dont
be shy ...
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Woodcock's view makes far more sense to me than the idea of a NZFC
selection noted by Maddaford in the article linked from our front
page (as if the Island nations would accept that!)
the following quote from that article exposes the lack of a reasoned argument from Vuksich, whilst his quote is probably taken out of context, it still rings of sour grapes
>>
woodcock's point about the hypocrisy of those two sides rabbiting on about a level playing field, seems to be worth noting
the key thing would seem to be that unless we get a decent team in there (guess which one
) - no one
will get any benefits
the following quote from that article exposes the lack of a reasoned argument from Vuksich, whilst his quote is probably taken out of context, it still rings of sour grapes
>>
Ivan Vuksich and Rex Dawkins, chairmen of Auckland City and Waitakere United respectively, while insisting the NZFC must provide the New Zealand representative in the O-League/Club World Cup, propose that an NZFC select Xl involving the best players from all teams but playing under the banner of the successful club should go to Japan.
"I would rather see that than having the Phoenix involved," said Vuksich. "To me something like that makes a lot of sense. It would be a one-off thing with the players returning to their clubs once the Club World Cup is over." <<
woodcock's point about the hypocrisy of those two sides rabbiting on about a level playing field, seems to be worth noting
the key thing would seem to be that unless we get a decent team in there (guess which one
) - no one
will get any benefits
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If it adds validity to Oceania's bid, then heck yes. FIFA might be
more inclined to keep Oceania in the qualification process if it
knows a fully professional team is in the mix.
What I'd like to see is:
- Phoenix playing against the NZFC champion, in the NZFC's home town at a larger stadium (ie Mount Smart if it's against Auckland, McLean against HBU etc), large proportiong of the funds from that match going to NZF to help develop the NZFC
- A large proportion of the funds from WPFC's O-League campaign going to NZF to develop the sport in general.
What I'd like to see is:
- Phoenix playing against the NZFC champion, in the NZFC's home town at a larger stadium (ie Mount Smart if it's against Auckland, McLean against HBU etc), large proportiong of the funds from that match going to NZF to help develop the NZFC
- A large proportion of the funds from WPFC's O-League campaign going to NZF to develop the sport in general.
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I have a feeling that after the 2010 World Cup - Oceania will become part of Asia ( as suggested on this forum previously & by Mr Woodcock in his article) This will then mean a revamp of the O-league and Asia Champs league so this debate may not be necessary after 2010 !! But I do say yes to the Phoenix being part of the O-league but only after a home & away playoff game with the NZFC winner.
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This is a no brainer (although I think it will become largely
irrellevant in a few years time when Sepp and his mates throw
Oceania away and make us part of Asia).
We MUST allow the Nix to play the NZFC champ in a multi game
play off format. The prize money for winning entry into the O
league MUST be shared (as evenly as possible) between the Nix
(assuming they win...), NZF, and evenly between the 8 NZFC
sides.
Stupid Aucklanders with their own stupid agendas have to stop
holding NZF to ransom for their own personal gain. Like Fred said,
acknowledge your place in the food chain here. If Oceania soccer
does not start to compete at this tournament, we will lose the
opportunity. the only way to ensure that is to send the Nix.
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Playoff between Phoenix and NZFC champions, money split between all
nine.
Then get rid of Oceania.
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I think just as a credibility thing the Phoenix must be the ones to
compete in this league. A play off with the NZFC champs is a great
idea as well but lets face it the Phoenix would highly likely be
the team to represent us.
And this would be awesome!! We could have a team in there that
will gain a reputation for NZ football. Who knows, they may
(definatly will) even progress to the playoffs and really get
NZ football in the spotlight!
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the way it stands now they have to, but i would rather see oceania
champs qualify through asia at all levels
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while this seems like a no-brainer to me i would think football
politics will be the winner here. while i dont know the ins and
outs of it it wouldnt suprise me if all the power in football is in
auckland ( remember the nix are LARGELY a stand alone enteprise)
and the auckland teams dont wana give up there nest egg which most
years will be theres because theyve got the money to win the
nzfc.
i might be incredibly wrong about this and would be happy to be put right
i might be incredibly wrong about this and would be happy to be put right
www.kiwifromthecouch.blogspot.com
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Thats why the Aux teams need to see sense, if they are going to
continue to 'compete' the way the Waitakere did a few weeks back it
won't be a nest egg for much longer.
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>>
Ivan Vuksich and Rex Dawkins, chairmen of Auckland City and Waitakere United respectively, while insisting the NZFC must provide the New Zealand representative in the O-League/Club World Cup, propose that an NZFC select Xl involving the best players from all teams but playing under the banner of the successful club should go to Japan.
So doesn't that defeat the purpose of a CLUB world
cup????
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>>
Ivan Vuksich and Rex Dawkins, chairmen of Auckland City and Waitakere United respectively, while insisting the NZFC must provide the New Zealand representative in the O-League/Club World Cup, propose that an NZFC select Xl involving the best players from all teams but playing under the banner of the successful club should go to Japan.
So doesn't that defeat the purpose of a CLUB world
cup????
Quite correct, not that they, nor Teflon Blatter will
care.
Proud to have attended the first 175 Consecutive "Home" Wellington Phoenix "A League" Games !!
The Ruf, The Ruf, The Ruf is on Fire!!
The Ruf, The Ruf, The Ruf is on Fire!!
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So what if the Phoenix win the A League ?? Does that mean they
qualify in both Asian and Oceania leagues ?
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I see a couple of issues here:
1. What is the incentive for the Island Nations accepting The
Nix into the qualifiers? At the moment they have a reasonable
chance of beating the top 2 NZFC teams don't they? Shouldn't they
be offered some of this money?
2. Why not have the top NZFC club qualify for the O League and
they be joined by the Nix?
3. How can Auckland and Waitakere stand with hand on heart and
say the status quo should remain? Woodcock is right that those 2
clubs already operate on an unlevel playing field simply because
they have extra money from playing in the WCC.
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Cut Oceania,put us in Asia.
She wore a yellow ribbon
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why can't they understand
nix = wcc = $$$
no nix = no wcc = no $$$ for anyone
anyways a NZFC selection will be weaker than sending the winner otherwise no one would bother with pre-season.
nix = wcc = $$$
no nix = no wcc = no $$$ for anyone
anyways a NZFC selection will be weaker than sending the winner otherwise no one would bother with pre-season.
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The way I see it NZ football has gone ahead in leaps and bounds
over the past couple of years. The formation of the NZFC is a big
plus for the sport in this country. It will improve over time, but
it concerns me that FIFA want us to to improve overnight and be
able to compete with other confederations who have been playing
professional football for years.
I think its quite reasonable to have the Oceania
representative playoff against the Asian team to see who qualifies
for WCC. I didn't see the whole game so I can't comment
on how poor Waitakere played, but 3-1 doesn't sound like much
of a flogging to me. The fact that they took US$1
million home (I think thats how much?) means this money can be
invested back into the game here. Just the very fact they
were able to qualify is an achievement in itself. Having said
that, we can't rest on our laurels. We need to aim for
improvement from year to year.
What if the AW's qualify for WC in 2010? Say we
qualify and are beaten in every game during the round robin (not
unlikely). The fact that we qualified is a huge achievement in
itself (the impossible dream). Is that not going to be good
enough for FIFA? Will they take away the best chance we have of
playing in the WC if we get beat? I hope not, because it would be
the last time we ever play in it.
The bottom line is that NZ has to have a a team in the
WCC. If this is to be the Nix then so be it, but as long
as the money is used to help NZ football - not just one
club.
To all you t**sers out there who think that us Aucklanders are
being greedy..
1) Perhaps your view would be different if your own NZFC
team was good enough to win OCC
2) And how much money do you really think the Nix would put
back into grassroots NZ football with the
prizemoney?
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2) And how much money do you really think the Nix would put
back into grassroots NZ football with the
prizemoney?
I personally believe the Nix must invest a previously agreed upon amount back into NZ football as part of earning the right to competing in the OCL. I'd be disappointed if they didn't. Hopefully the incentive to do so will be there.
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re your point 1) Hammerhead - i think there's a good chance team
welly will win the NZFC this season, and could therefore go on to
win the OCC
and if that happens i'd still be happy for the nix to go to the WCC in place of Team welly
tigers2007-12-19 21:55:06
and if that happens i'd still be happy for the nix to go to the WCC in place of Team welly
tigers2007-12-19 21:55:06
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The sooner FIFA scrap Oceania the better. Only reason they haven't
yet is because they have more important things to do. Oceania's
embarassing. Asia's the future for NZ - just as Oz recognised.
Hopefully a Stephen Tindall comes along to make the an A League
happen again for Auckland. Until that happens, the A League
won't go near them. As for the lunatic idea of a
composite NZFC side for world club stuff, words fail me - the
football world must be shuddering. NZ Football has no money -
they're an amateur outfit - and unless they capatilise on The
Phoenix - the gap between them and the Terry S super-funded
Wellington professional side will just widen. Just like in Oz, it
took some-one with a lot of money from outside the political
football circle, to make it happen here
too.
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I dunno, I can't help thinking there's an element of bluff in this
whole "shape up or ship out" stuff apparently attributed to a
Fifa rep (though I haven't seen a quote). A 2 goal losing
margin hardly seems to justify such a harsh reaction. Surely it
would be against Fifa's charter that preaches development and
inclusion of all regions of the footballing world.
I don't feel comfortable with the idea of the Phoenix having a
bite at both the Asian and Oceania cherry, no matter how evenly the
money is spread. Why does the assumption seem to be that we will
waltz into some hypothetical playoff? What, because we are
professional and the other clubs aren't? And supposing we do have
our playoff, how does this single game "raise the standard of the
O-League" as Fred Woodcock claims?
I may be wrong but I doubt there is any other club team in the
world that has the privilege of competing for cups in different
regions, and I'm sure Fifa will not want to set such a precedent.
And Oceania is not going to be scrapped either: NZ itself
would barely be able to afford to play in the Asian region (it's
big!), the Pacific nations would find it financially impossible and
therefore be effectively excluded.
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So what if the Phoenix win the A League ?? Does that mean they
qualify in both Asian and Oceania leagues ?
Nope. At the moment, if they win the A-League, one of the "second" teams goes into the ACL. And the Phoenix go nowhere.
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I dunno, I can't help thinking there's an element of bluff in this
whole "shape up or ship out" stuff apparently attributed to a
Fifa rep (though I haven't seen a quote). A 2 goal losing
margin hardly seems to justify such a harsh reaction. Surely it
would be against Fifa's charter that preaches development and
inclusion of all regions of the footballing world.[/QUOTE]
terminator_x2007-12-20 09:43:36
I don't think it's the margins so much as the performances.
You need very rose-tinted glasses not to admit that both Auckland
City and Waitakere have been completely outclassed at the WCC. Both
of those defeats could easily have been 5 or 6 goal thrashings
against teams who barely had their foot on the pedal.
Blatter's threats are typical of his modus operandi and he
tends to follow through. If you're the President of FIFA you don't
say things in the media that you don't intend to make happen by
hook or by crook.
I don't feel comfortable with the idea of the Phoenix having a bite
at both the Asian and Oceania cherry, no matter how evenly the
money is spread. Why does the assumption seem to be that we will
waltz into some hypothetical playoff? What, because we are
professional and the other clubs aren't? And supposing we do have
our playoff, how does this single game "raise the standard of the
O-League" as Fred Woodcock claims?
They don't have two bites at the cherry - they can't get to
the WCC through Asia. The Phoenix are an Oceania based team who
have dispensation to play in another region's league because it is
the only way NZ (or Oceania) will ever have a professional football
team and because of commercial reasons (basically the TV contract
for the A-League and the major sponsors' contracts include having
NZ as part of the 'market'). The Phoenix playing in the A-League
should be viewed as the exception to the rule and therefore there
is no issue with the Oceania Federation inviting the Phoenix into
the O-League (whether that be through an NZFC play-off or
not).
[QUOTE=StopOut]I may be wrong but I doubt there is any other
club team in the world that has the privilege of competing for cups
in different regions, and I'm sure Fifa will not want to set such a
precedent. And Oceania is not going to be scrapped either:
NZ itself would barely be able to afford to play in the Asian
region (it's big!), the Pacific nations would find it financially
impossible and therefore be effectively excluded.
As above, the Phoenix don't have the privilege of competing
for different cups in different regions. In fact, at the moment
they can't even compete for the WCC via their "home" region -
Oceania.
The most likely and sensible answer to the future of the
Oceania Federation would be to absorb it into Asia and split Asia
into sub-regions, who each put two or three teams through to a
final group stage for the World Cup.
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So the NZFC gets two places in the O-League at the moment?
Ok so "NZFC 1st" vs "Phoenix" and then "Loser" vs "NZFC 2nd".
This allows for expansion if/when NZ gets a 2nd team...
"1st NZ A-League Team" vs "NZFC 1st" and "2nd NZ A-League Team" vs "NZFC 2nd"
Ok so "NZFC 1st" vs "Phoenix" and then "Loser" vs "NZFC 2nd".
This allows for expansion if/when NZ gets a 2nd team...
"1st NZ A-League Team" vs "NZFC 1st" and "2nd NZ A-League Team" vs "NZFC 2nd"
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Nice work TX.
Good to see some constructive debate going on here.
Short term solution = let the Nix play off with (read: 'beat')
NZFC champs
Long term solution = absord Oceania into Asia.
It's the only way.
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No NZFC does not get two places in the O league at the moment. NZFC 1st plays off with Nix - simple.
And where did all this talk of two NZ teams in the A League
come from?? Lets not get carried away here. We have had one
successful season off the field, and an average one on the field.
The A-league would have to expand by at least three teams if NZ
were to even get a sniff.
We have a long way to go to redeem ourselves for the shambles
that was the Kingz/Knights
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NZFC does get two places in the A-League. Auckland and
Waitakere have both player two O-Leagues games already this
season.
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Yeah I was thinking LOOOOOONNNNGGGG term :P
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NZFC does get two places in the
O-League.� Auckland and
Waitakere have both player two O-Leagues games already this
season.
Fixed
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Face Fifa could not give a sh*t about oceania, once Blatter
had bought off the NZ vote for the 2006 world cup, all promises
were abruptly dumped. It was such an obvious con, only our
representative could not see it (But thats another thread on its
own) much to Blatters amusement.
If we promised to vote for Germany, we'd (Oceania) have
automatic qualification to the World Cup finals. Vote given but
automatic qualification instantly removed.
Despite which World Cup zone New Zealand is stuck in, the
Phoenix are aligned to the A-League and therefore under their
umbrella. Therefore, if we won the A-League, we deserve and have
earned the right to the Asia Club Champions League under
A League authorities. It's fine for the Australians to hide behind
this, that and every legal angle, but the Nix are abiding by their
rules. It's open and shut. It gets cloudy because it's allowed to
get that way.
The World Club Championships come from the various Club
Champions League, not the national boudaries. Hence, the nix should
play in the Asian version of the Champions League if we are good
enough to win the A League.
Proud to have attended the first 175 Consecutive "Home" Wellington Phoenix "A League" Games !!
The Ruf, The Ruf, The Ruf is on Fire!!
The Ruf, The Ruf, The Ruf is on Fire!!
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You're right LG. Phoenix are a club that belongs to an Asian league
whether we like it or not. If they win their league they should be
allowed to play in ACL.
Hammer Head2007-12-20 13:10:52
But that still leaves us with the problem of what to do with
Oceania?
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[/QUOTE]
The most likely and sensible answer to the future of the
Oceania Federation would be to absorb it into Asia and split Asia
into sub-regions, who each put two or three teams through to a
final group stage for the World Cup.
two and a half spots each zone third placed play off against each other
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You're right LG. Phoenix are a club that belongs to an Asian league
whether we like it or not. If they win their league they should be
allowed to play in ACL.
But that still leaves us with the problem of what to do with
Oceania?
Make Oceania a sub group of asia, Oceania's champs be it club or country then go into asia group phases - simple!
If Oceania's football imp roves then get two spots
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Wat is the fundamental probem with the Phoenix playing in the ACL?
They already play in an asian club comp, how would that be any
different? SHould the fact that they are based in NZ override the
fact that they exist to play in an Asian competition?
Normo's coming home
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Didnt the club sign a deal not letting them in for two years, as
were not likely to win the comp this season it dosnt matter. But
soon as we win the A league they would have to let the Nix in,
after all the A league gets two spots
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What's Team Wellington's position on this?
We hear plenty from those muppets up in Auckland so it would
be good to hear TW make a statement. Even better to hear them
make a "common sense" statement that reflects a desire to do what's
best for the game in NZ (and in Wellington for that matter).
Having one or two NZFC franchises come out and say "we're
prepared to get out of the way here so that the Phoenix can try and
save Oceania's credibility" would be very refreshing. And I'm sure
no one would mind if they followed such a magnanimous statement
with "and we'd love a nice big slice of the cash as well
please"!
I reckon a lot of the franchises would actually prefer to be
budgeting based upon a consistent, evenly spread payout among the
franchises rather than never quite knowing what they'll get under
the current system (and that might be nothing if Blatter has his
way). That assumes of course that the Phoenix can consistently get
to the WCC and FIFA are happy with their performances.
TW is owned by the good members of a number of Wellington
clubs so why not push your club committee to push TW to come out
and make a statement.
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I dont think the Australian FA would allow a NZ team to represent
them in the ACL. After all, its their League and they write the
rules. i think we should push for the phoenix to be eligible to
play in the O-Laegue.
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