Wellington Phoenix Men

What is this obsession with a target man?

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

What is this obsession with a target man?

All I do is make the stuff I would've liked
Reference things I wanna watch, reference girls I wanna bite
Now I'm firefly like a burning kite
And yousa fake fuck like a fleshlight

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Reading these forums quite a bit over the last few days, and there seems to be a growing obsession with the nix acquiring a target man. We have signed a League 1 quality centre forward - right all we need is a target man. We have signed a Championship quality winger/attacking midfielder - great, but where is our target man?.

If we sign Morientes, people will be screaming WHERE IS OUR TARGET MAN?

Disclaimer - we are never going to sign Morientes, I was just using that to make a point.

Why do we need a target man?

I think it is a roll that died out in the 80's with the last generation target men being players like Alan Smith, Peter Withe and Andy Gray - players that you could fire a cannonball at and they would bring it down on their chest and lay it off. Nowdays there are a few in existence (Peter Crouch, Cartlon Cole, Emile Heskey) but many more examples of teams not using one. Manchester United don't (Berbatov is not a physical, back to goal player), Liverpool don't (someone like Torres can hold the ball up, or win the odd header when it is humped to his head, but that is because of great technique not because he is a target man). Only Chelsea of the top 4 do (Drogba) as Adebayor is not a target man (just because he is big and strong - when he can be bothered - he doesn't play a 'back to goal' target man role).

I think that we have to have faith that someone like Greenacre can hold the ball up due to technique rather than strength. We might not win many headers when it is hit long, but that will ensure that the team play to feet - if Man Utd can play midgets with Rooney and Owen up front, we should be able to cope with Greenacre and Ifill/Costa/Hearfield/whoever. If anything, people should be screaming out for some creativity in midfield.

All I do is make the stuff I would've liked
Reference things I wanna watch, reference girls I wanna bite
Now I'm firefly like a burning kite
And yousa fake fuck like a fleshlight

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Frankie Mac wrote:

Why do we need a target man

Because the targetman can...

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

IMO it's people rolling with Ricki's plan of an old-fashioned targetman + man to feed off scraps (Greenacre) combo. Sure there are other ways to from an attack but that seems to be what we're after, perhaps to do with a lack of midfield creativity, or the fact we do have talent on the wings and we want someone for BoomBoom, Troy, Daniel and co. to aim for. The Palace fan who posted in the Ifill thread said he's not that great in the air, our last striker should be able to put away crosses like Smeltz.

You know we belong together...

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Some good points in there, but a like bit of variety on the striker front wouldnï¿½t hurt

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Because most players in the A-League aren't skillful enough to get past players/pass through teams so you need a big, no nonsense guy up front who you can lump the ball to. Van Dijk, Dadi, Allsopp, Cristiano, MacAlister/Simon/Mrdja are pretty much in that mould.After seeing all of the long ball tactics in the first half against the Chinese team I think we'll need that type of player. Comparing A-League teams tactical ability/passing ability to EPL team's is a bit strange - though I suppose you could say that the defensive ability and awareness is also not as good as in the EPL so it evens out but it's easier to find a decent defender than someone who has the skill to get past players.

In saying that I think we would still be alright with just Greenacre and Costa up front. Only if we stop with the long ball, though.
valeo2009-07-22 21:25:37

a.haak

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

The thing is that you do not need to be "a target man" to be good in the air. Timing of the run/jump, quality of service, set peice plans all contribute significantly. Over the last couple of seasons, Michael Owen has scored at least half a dozen goals with his head - probably about the same number as Crouch (I am making things up here to back up my point, but I am sure no one minds about that).

It is also the same with the ability to hold the ball up. Big fellas can get away with a slightly worse first touch because they have the strength to hold off the defender. A smaller striker with a good first touch can hold the ball up just as effectively as they will put the ball in a place where the defender has to foul them if they want to try and get it.

bottom line - you do not need to be a big target man to hold the ball up or score headers.

I would be much happier with the club focusing on signing players with quality as opposed to someone who fits the supposedly required physical attributes. Otherwise we might as well sign Irene Van Dyke.

All I do is make the stuff I would've liked
Reference things I wanna watch, reference girls I wanna bite
Now I'm firefly like a burning kite
And yousa fake fuck like a fleshlight

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Frankie Mac wrote:

The thing is that you do not need to be "a target man" to be good in the air. Timing of the run/jump, quality of service, set peice plans all contribute significantly. Over the last couple of seasons, Michael Owen has scored at least half a dozen goals with his head - probably about the same number as Crouch (I am making things up here to back up my point, but I am sure no one minds about that).

It is also the same with the ability to hold the ball up. Big fellas can get away with a slightly worse first touch because they have the strength to hold off the defender. A smaller striker with a good first touch can hold the ball up just as effectively as they will put the ball in a place where the defender has to foul them if they want to try and get it.

bottom line - you do not need to be a big target man to hold the ball up or score headers.

I would be much happier with the club focusing on signing players with quality as opposed to someone who fits the supposedly required physical attributes. Otherwise we might as well sign Irene Van Dyke.

Obviously they are or we would have signed Potty already and not even considered the Chinese fella. Seems like you're complaining about nothing to me - Ricki identified the need for a certain type of player at the beginning of the pre season and has tried to find that player. If we don't, no big deal, but it's probably better if we do.

It's all well and good saying that smaller players can hold it up well etc. but it remains to be seen if any of the players on our books can do that. Greenacre did it a couple of times last night but who knows against A-League teams. It's a simple fact that height often = more headed goals to be honest. Unless the guys name is 'Cahill'..

Seems like we'll be focusing on wing play and heaps of crosses in from the likes of Hearfield, Leo and now Ifill so having a big guy to get up above defenders would probably be a good thing.

By the way, having small guys up front didn't stop us playing long balls to no one last night. I don't think we'll stop doing that. Though to be honest the bigger problem is probably our inability to transfer from defence to attack which makes us resort to these kind of tactics in the first place. Had the same problem last year.

valeo2009-07-22 21:38:15

a.haak

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

I thought there ware some good points there. id be happy with Greenacre Costa Ifill. up front. Honeslty think we have a pretty good team comming together

All Aboard the Phoenix/ All Whites Bandwagon!!

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Frankie Mac wrote:

The thing is that you do not need to be "a target man" to be good in the air. Timing of the run/jump, quality of service, set peice plans all contribute significantly. Over the last couple of seasons, Michael Owen has scored at least half a dozen goals with his head - probably about the same number as Crouch (I am making things up here to back up my point, but I am sure no one minds about that).

It is also the same with the ability to hold the ball up. Big fellas can get away with a slightly worse first touch because they have the strength to hold off the defender. A smaller striker with a good first touch can hold the ball up just as effectively as they will put the ball in a place where the defender has to foul them if they want to try and get it.

bottom line - you do not need to be a big target man to hold the ball up or score headers.

I would be much happier with the club focusing on signing players with quality as opposed to someone who fits the supposedly required physical attributes. Otherwise we might as well sign Irene Van Dyke.

We can't trial everyone, so might as well target those who are most likely to fit plans, i.e. bigger strikers.

You know we belong together...

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

valeo wrote:

Seems like you're complaining about nothing to me - Ricki identified the need for a certain type of player at the beginning of the pre season and has tried to find that player. If we don't, no big deal, but it's probably better if we do.

I guess - I just get a bit annoyed with people seemingly glossing over the fact that we have signed a Championship quality player who has appeared in an FA Cup Final becuase he is not a target man. This is potentially one of the biggest signings in New Zealand football history (transferred for near a million quid in the recent past, still at an age where you can say he is still in his peak) which would be making my pants tighter if I was in NZ. Get excited, and spread that excitment.

All I do is make the stuff I would've liked
Reference things I wanna watch, reference girls I wanna bite
Now I'm firefly like a burning kite
And yousa fake fuck like a fleshlight

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

its cos some people dont have a mind of their own

Founder

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Exactly, it's the targetman-bandwagon

Fruglo on 15.01.2013 wrote:

Fuck this stupid game

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Feverish wrote:

its cos some people dont have a mind of their own

yeah, I agree - some people don't have a mind of their own.

All I do is make the stuff I would've liked
Reference things I wanna watch, reference girls I wanna bite
Now I'm firefly like a burning kite
And yousa fake fuck like a fleshlight

Permalink

over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Frankie Mac wrote:

Feverish wrote:

its cos some people dont have a mind of their own

yeah, I agree - some people don't have a mind of their own.

Yes, we're all individuals

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Frankie Mac wrote:

valeo wrote:

Seems like you're complaining about nothing to me - Ricki identified the need for a certain type of player at the beginning of the pre season and has tried to find that player. If we don't, no big deal, but it's probably better if we do.

I guess - I just get a bit annoyed with people seemingly glossing over the fact that we have signed a Championship quality player who has appeared in an FA Cup Final becuase he is not a target man. This is potentially one of the biggest signings in New Zealand football history (transferred for near a million quid in the recent past, still at an age where you can say he is still in his peak) which would be making my pants tighter if I was in NZ. Get excited, and spread that excitment.

I am very excited....and am spreading my excitement everywhere Frankie.....

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Every Younger one with Facebook or Bebo. Should make every second update a Phoenix related one. Cant hurt. Cope a bit of flack, but might get people talking.

All Aboard the Phoenix/ All Whites Bandwagon!!

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

scoop wrote:

Every Younger one with Facebook or Bebo. Should make every second update a Phoenix related one. Cant hurt. Cope a bit of flack, but might get people talking.

Might just do that.

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

scoop wrote:

Every Younger one with Facebook or Bebo. Should make every second update a Phoenix related one. Cant hurt. Cope a bit of flack, but might get people talking.

Done

Fruglo on 15.01.2013 wrote:

Fuck this stupid game

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

All about the Facebook is brilliant for that carry on, Targetman doesn't worry me. Anyone can do that job you just have pin the defender then get the ball under and set back. easy

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

I'm glad someone brought this up, target man is an optional tactic not a mandatory element of all teams.

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

I think its just because Ricki has identified the type of striker he is looking for publically. Its not my personal preference and I don't think we need one, but I'm glad that Ricki has identified player attributes he is looking for rather than sayin ' we need another striker or two'.

I don't think a targetman is needed in any team. But it was Ricki's choice so we should respect his judgement as coach

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Coxey wrote:

Frankie Mac wrote:

valeo wrote:

Seems like you're complaining about nothing to me - Ricki identified the need for a certain type of player at the beginning of the pre season and has tried to find that player. If we don't, no big deal, but it's probably better if we do.

I guess - I just get a bit annoyed with people seemingly glossing over the fact that we have signed a Championship quality player who has appeared in an FA Cup Final becuase he is not a target man. This is potentially one of the biggest signings in New Zealand football history (transferred for near a million quid in the recent past, still at an age where you can say he is still in his peak) which would be making my pants tighter if I was in NZ. Get excited, and spread that excitment.

I am very excited....and am spreading my excitement everywhere Frankie.....

Ohhh, oh oh oh oh ! Am I too late for the excitement spreading?

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

I would rather have a decent playmaker than a target man - we've got good wingers/wide players, but no one that can really read the game and set players up. Having said that, I do like the look of our squad so far!

and I'm stoked we've got a player like Ifill - targetman or no targetman
Cosimo2009-07-23 07:44:27

I like tautologies because I like them.

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

I don't really give a rat's arse about signing a "target man". We seem to have signed a couple of guys with decent credentials. Doesn't matter who we have up front, they aren't gonna score goals if they don't get the service. It's more about our midfield giving whoever plays up front the ammo to score some goals. If our midfield players do the business, I'm sure we've now got blokes who are capable of scoring some goals for us.

Apparently I'm apathetic, but I couldn't care less.

"Being a Partick Thistle fan sets you apart. It means youre a free thinker. It also means your team has no money." Tim Luckhurst, The Independent, 4th December 2003

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Yeah I reckon - Ifill seems to be both a creator and a Goalscorer so he should be a good fit.

But I agree that we do need a creator, but at the moment I feel like we will just sign Chen and be done with it. No targetman in the end - we do have a bit more creativity in the middle now with Diego, Daniel, Bertos and Hearfield all looking good this pre season. Not to mention Costa/ Marco coming through

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

I suppose we did alright with Smeltz and he isn't exactly a targetman (though he holds the ball up pretty well)

Ifill is a great signing but comments from CP fans worry me a bit. I don't think he is a striker and i'm wondering if Greenacre can pull it off playing up there pretty much alone or if Costa will have to step up (hope he does!)

By the way, Hearfield really, really impressed me in the last game. It seems like he's stepped up. He showed it at the end of last season before he got that silly send off as well and I think he'll play a big part this season.
valeo2009-07-23 09:59:56

a.haak

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Sign this guy up:

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Looks like Elrich!

Apparently I'm apathetic, but I couldn't care less.

"Being a Partick Thistle fan sets you apart. It means youre a free thinker. It also means your team has no money." Tim Luckhurst, The Independent, 4th December 2003

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

valeo wrote:

I suppose we did alright with Smeltz and he isn't exactly a targetman (though he holds the ball up pretty well)

Ifill is a great signing but comments from CP fans worry me a bit. I don't think he is a striker and i'm wondering if Greenacre can pull it off playing up there pretty much alone or if Costa will have to step up (hope he does!)

By the way, Hearfield really, really impressed me in the last game. It seems like he's stepped up. He showed it at the end of last season before he got that silly send off as well and I think he'll play a big part this season.

Agree with all that. Especially the Hearfield comment.

He was really showing class at the end of last season, also he seems to have an eye on goal which is definitely a good thing.

Ifill may not be a out and out striker, but he seems to have the ability to get past players and have a crack, so even as an attackive midfielder or wing, he will be a danger.

If its not working then we can always try Greenacre in the middle with Ifill and Bertos/Hearfield out wide for him?

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

im happy with not having a target man. for me I see greenacre and costa quite different players. ifill will be different again and I can see him playing slightly behind the striker(s). Im not really sure how chen plays but I dont think he'd bea target.

some of the best strike forces in the world dont play with targets (ie germany: lukas podolski and miroslav klose) and they bang in goals together most games.

I think hearfield and costa have come a long way since last season. they will want to be fighting hard for a starting position if they havent already got that already.

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

targetman
really necessary
especially in A league
Good sample as Team Wellington
Paul and Peter
they can cover lots of potential striker from the back
Thats y Luis got golden boots last 2 years.

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

however, if targetman appear, the beautiful football gonna disappeared at some stages.

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

At same time
i think when Heskey on the field, England beat most of the opp last xxx years.
England started to change the football style more close to the SKILL AREA
however, they find out Heskey is still important.

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

I suppose there was no chance you could just have said all that in one post, was there?

Jag2009-07-23 11:05:31

Apparently I'm apathetic, but I couldn't care less.

"Being a Partick Thistle fan sets you apart. It means youre a free thinker. It also means your team has no money." Tim Luckhurst, The Independent, 4th December 2003

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Terry wrote:

targetman
really necessary
especially in A league
Good sample as Team Wellington
Paul and Peter
they can cover lots of potential striker from the back
Thats y Luis got golden boots last 2 years.
[/QUOTE]

Terry wrote:

however, if targetman appear, the beautiful football gonna disappeared at some stages.

[QUOTE=Terry]At same time
i think when Heskey on the field, England beat most of the opp last xxx years.
England started to change the football style more close to the SKILL AREA
however, they find out Heskey is still important.

Very poetic

You know we belong together...

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Oh great targetman
Lead us to A-League Glory
For you are the one!

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

scoop wrote:

Every Younger one with Facebook or Bebo. Should make every second update a Phoenix related one. Cant hurt. Cope a bit of flack, but might get people talking.

I already am doing this. I've been told by some that I'm obsessed, but most times I get a bit of discussion. Like when I posted the picture of the strips it got a few people talking. Good idea.

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

I think it's good that we're packing our midfield with talented players, as I said before I reckon it's better to have 5 players scoring 8 goals each than one scoring 20.

This said, we still need someone who can hold the ball up front and connect with Leo's crosses.

VUW AFC - Victoria University Football for life

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

yeah lets think like individuals...except this thread is now the groupthink..we dont need a

target man...

I still believe with our style of play of short passing going forward till we get to the 18 yard box and then going sideways that we need someone who can then get the ball..or be given it and hold and lay off that final pass..or turn and lay it on for Greenacre or Ifill. When MV come to town I look at their big plaers and think where are all the Phoenix..oh there they are around the oppositions knees. We need height which to me partly means target and we need the ability to hold the ball once we get it into the business end of the field.

A small town in Europe........looking to bounce straight back up....well that aint going to happen

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