Disappointing to hear that from Uffie. Unnecessary comment. Seems like the process has set back the Nix and NZF.
The question then has to be why they didn’t snap up Des. Best performed age group coach of recent times.
So this candidate with family issues was never Herdman? Or it was and they’re trying to cover up?
The easiest con is when the people you’re conning desperately want to hear what you are telling them.
Sounds like we had the potential of at least two decent coaches and now we’ve got no one or this one other preferred candidate who isn’t, despite Piney being certain, Herdman.
I’m still thinking Hiddink might be a target. He’s been to New Zealand once right?
Hiddink only helped out Arnold for those two matches against us because Arnold's assistant was off scouting two of Australia's WC opponents, apart from that, he is retired.
That's exactly what I've been hearing from my Canadian footy community. He is negotiating with Canada for more $$Ryan
theprof
just heard it announced on RNZ, Herdman is staying with Canada until 2026. Two parties at fault, NZF for ever believing he'd leave Canada for us and Herdman for even applplying when his situation wasnt certain.
I'm guessing whatever the family issue was meant he can't leave Canada - which would suggest wife and kids didnt want to come to NZ.
So, NZF readvertises the role after March?
His kid plays for NZ. The personal situation was probably he's negotiating with Canada.
I've heard the 5 shortlisted candidates were Herdman, Bazeley, Talay, Buckingham and Paul Nevin - process of elimination would suggest the answer but I have no idea how reliable my maths (or rumour source) is.
Well the maths ain’t hard.
Paul Nevin on face value has an excellent resume. I hope like hell now it’s him, and this mess is soon over. Again only face value but I can see why he would be called a Standout candidate
Man this is a soap opera. Latest information is that NZFs requirements was that the coach lives in Auckland and that they rang David Dome to see if that was all right, so it might not be that Ufuk was rejected just because they thoguht they had Herdman lined up, but also because the Phoenix didn't want their full time head coach to move to another city for a part time position.
I don't recall how Gourdie introduced it on Newshub last night but he seemed pretty confident that Herdman was #1, report seemed to indicate that it was a source inside NZF. Herdman was offered something, he turned it down, leak occurs and the press run with it, the fans get all excited becuase Herdman would be a massive coup, now we are all dissappointed and confused, beacuse NZF has dashed our hopes of having a manager in place before games take place. They give with one hand and take with the other. I'm sure the Nix relationship with NZF is fine, Uffie on the other hand probably isnt happy. If, like the latest report suggests, NZF's #1 wasnt herdman then I have no idea who it could be? Nevin would be interesting but his last contact with NZ was in 2006 with the Knights for a year.Looks like he is currently part of the coaching staff for england.
I don't recall how Gourdie introduced it on Newshub last night but he seemed pretty confident that Herdman was #1, report seemed to indicate that it was a source inside NZF. Herdman was offered something, he turned it down, leak occurs and the press run with it, the fans get all excited becuase Herdman would be a massive coup, now we are all dissappointed and confused, beacuse NZF has dashed our hopes of having a manager in place before games take place. They give with one hand and take with the other. I'm sure the Nix relationship with NZF is fine, Uffie on the other hand probably isnt happy. If, like the latest report suggests, NZF's #1 wasnt herdman then I have no idea who it could be? Nevin would be interesting but his last contact with NZ was in 2006 with the Knights for a year.Looks like he is currently part of the coaching staff for england.
All well known football media seem 100% certain that the "preferred candidate" was Herdman and are confused by the statement from NZF today. Piney seems to have doubled down on it with an opinion piece in the herald, but I don't have a subscription so I don't know the details.
So I think there are two option here. 1) this is NZF trying to save face by saying there is someone else out there 2) Herdman was the preferred candidate at some stage, he declined it (he's admitted he turned down a contract), and now the new preferred person with finally health issues is the target
Hmmm family health issues… Wonder how Kevin Fallon is feeling these days.
I don't recall how Gourdie introduced it on Newshub last night but he seemed pretty confident that Herdman was #1, report seemed to indicate that it was a source inside NZF. Herdman was offered something, he turned it down, leak occurs and the press run with it, the fans get all excited becuase Herdman would be a massive coup, now we are all dissappointed and confused, beacuse NZF has dashed our hopes of having a manager in place before games take place. They give with one hand and take with the other. I'm sure the Nix relationship with NZF is fine, Uffie on the other hand probably isnt happy. If, like the latest report suggests, NZF's #1 wasnt herdman then I have no idea who it could be? Nevin would be interesting but his last contact with NZ was in 2006 with the Knights for a year.Looks like he is currently part of the coaching staff for england.
All well known football media seem 100% certain that the "preferred candidate" was Herdman and are confused by the statement from NZF today. Piney seems to have doubled down on it with an opinion piece in the herald, but I don't have a subscription so I don't know the details.
OPINION:
New Zealand Football CEO Andrew Pragnell probably slept soundly last night.
He believed he’d succeeded in pulling off a major coup, convincing Canadian coach John Herdman to become the new All Whites coach. While he wasn’t mentioned by name, it was widely known Herdman was the “preferred candidate” with terms agreed and just a contract to be signed once a family health matter had been dealt with.
Probably before Pragnell even had the chance to pour his morning coffee, he was hit with the news he’d lost his man. In a statement, Canada Soccer and Herdman reiterated their commitment to one another, with Herdman confirming he’d turned down the offer from New Zealand Football.
One of the truisms of recruitment is that until you have a signature, you don’t have a deal, and that has proven to be the case here. Rather than ink on a contract, NZF now has egg on its face.
Why did NZF even reference a “preferred candidate”? Pragnell and New Zealand Football probably felt they needed to provide an update on the coaching situation when they announced friendly matches in March against China. Having initially said they wanted a coach locked in by Christmas, they needed to show progress as we drifted into February. Unfortunately, it was widely known in football circles Herdman was the aforementioned “preferred candidate” and once Canada Soccer got wind of the fact others were circling, they moved quickly to lock him in, almost certainly on improved terms.
How has this happened? How have New Zealand Football been convinced they had Herdman, when the deal was clearly still uncertain? The likely chain of events is pretty easy to follow.
New Zealand Football opened a recruitment process for the next All Whites coach and Herdman applied. He went through an interview process and wowed the panel (which included a couple of senior All Whites) with a presentation on his vision for the side over the next World Cup cycle. That was followed by further conversations with Pragnell, those players and others — at which point NZF landed on Herdman as the one they wanted. They agreed terms, and it appears that Herdman gave every indication he wanted to take up the role. Then, at the 11th hour, he changed his mind and re-signed with Canada, leaving NZF with a PR mess to clean up and still no All Whites coach.
Did Herdman ever really want the job? Having last year guided Canada to their first World Cup since 1986, he could look forward to the next tournament in 2026, to be co-hosted by Canada. Why would he give that up to join a programme with an — at best — draft programme of fixtures and nothing in the way of competitive games until Oceania qualifying begins sometime in 2025? It’s highly likely he was always going to stay, but was indulging in Employment Negotiation 101.
Herdman is certainly not the first person to use this classic tactic and won’t be the last. Any interest from other parties is a key leveraging tool in occupational discussions; it happens in business every day. If you tell your current employer a competitor has offered you a job, it’s very common for your company to counter-offer, usually boosting your pay and benefits.
Pragnell and the others involved at NZF would have taken Herdman’s application in good faith. They would have assumed he actually wanted the job. That may seem naive in hindsight, but what other approach could they take?
They’ve become the hapless pawn in a greater game of chess. They’ve been played. That doesn’t paint Herdman in a particularly good light, but I doubt he cares. The outcome for him is a win.
The big question now is what NZF do next. They’ve lost their man (if they ever had him) and will no doubt take lessons from the way this has played out, but they still need an All Whites coach. They’ve failed to secure Herdman, had their number two candidate Des Buckingham withdraw from the race and told Phoenix coach Ufuk Talay he’s not the man they’re after. Much as interim coach Darren Bazeley is a faithful and loyal servant, he’s not the man to lead the All Whites.
Once they’ve dealt with the extremely awkward fallout from this and the inevitable questions about their apparent gullibility, NZF will need to go back to the market.
Buckingham and Talay seem like good first phone calls to make, but in Talay’s case in particular, he’d be quite within his rights to ignore the approach, having given everything to his initial application and been judged not good enough.
A trendy catchphrase often used by elite modern-day sports teams is you either win or you learn. There are very basic, yet harsh lessons to be learnt from this shambolic turn of events.
Sound representation of what might have transpired, the biggest issue for me is that NZF has had plenty of win or learn moments and as yet have not shown they've learned anything. Pragnell was brought in as he was different from the bumbling muppets running the show previously, yet he's been sucked n by the classic tactic to get a better deal. Herman was well within his rights to be looking for another job, we all do it while we are employed, stupid not to really. But anyone knows that until the ink has dried you havent got you person. Just naive from Pragnell and NZF, which is a worry. It's just more of the same! When we've been promised better.
Umm. So the 5th candidate wasn't Paul Nevin after all, but a Scot called Scot. Pretty similar CV to Bazeley's. Has had the Scottish U21 role for over 6 years, so must be rated for working with young players.
It is not known whether (Scot) Gemmill has been told he hasn’t got the job, like Talay, or if he still remains in contention, but compared with Herdman, Buckingham and Talay, the Scottish age-group coach could not be accurately described as “an absolute standout”.
Coaching career His first steps in to coaching were as a player/coach under Jim Smith at Oxford United in 2006. He then became player/coach at the New Zealand Knights in the Australian A-League.
Can't be particularly impressive or ambitious to stick around as an age group coach for 6 years. I'd rather have Bazeley and that's saying something. NZF should call up Ramon ASAP. Truly gutting that NZF turned down the chance to match/counter Des' Mumbai offer because they thought they were getting Herdman.
What an absolute farcical disgrace this situation is. A monumental stuff up by NZF.
The fact that they got 'catfished' by Herdman, and lost out on Talay who would have been the ideal coach is just incredible.
I don't know where to start with this situation. How were they expecting to sign Herdman, seriously? Why does the AW's coaching role need to be based predominately in Auckland?
I don't blame Talay for putting the middle finger up to NZF now. A man of principles.
Can't be particularly impressive or ambitious to stick around as an age group coach for 6 years. I'd rather have Bazeley and that's saying something. NZF should call up Ramon ASAP. Truly gutting that NZF turned down the chance to match/counter Des' Mumbai offer because they thought they were getting Herdman.
Agree with the call for Tribulietx, even if he didn't apply after years of being snubbed they should make an offer to him. There are also competent candidates in the A-League who could make good international coaches. I am not sure I would take Bazeley at any cost. Even Jason Pine has openly said Bazeley is not the man for the All Whites:
"The big question now is what NZF do next. They’ve lost their man (if they ever had him) and will no doubt take lessons from the way this has played out, but they still need an All Whites coach. They’ve failed to secure Herdman, had their number two candidate Des Buckingham withdraw from the race and told Phoenix coach Ufuk Talay he’s not the man they’re after. Much as interim coach Darren Bazeley is a faithful and loyal servant, he’s not the man to lead the All Whites. Once they’ve dealt with the extremely awkward fallout from this and the inevitable questions about their apparent gullibility, NZF will need to go back to the market."
Umm. So the 5th candidate wasn't Paul Nevin after all, but a Scot called Scot. Pretty similar CV to Bazeley's. Has had the Scottish U21 role for over 6 years, so must be rated for working with young players.
It is not known whether (Scot) Gemmill has been told he hasn’t got the job, like Talay, or if he still remains in contention, but compared with Herdman, Buckingham and Talay, the Scottish age-group coach could not be accurately described as “an absolute standout”.
Coaching career His first steps in to coaching were as a player/coach under Jim Smith at Oxford United in 2006. He then became player/coach at the New Zealand Knights in the Australian A-League.
Had to be based in Auckland? Because it’s the site of some portacoms and (almost?) 0 current starting All Whites? Then they can reuse Huddo’s pinboards, so they save a bit of money? It just makes you think more and more the only professional football in NZ is in Wellington and even then I’m withholding judgment until we win the league this year!
On the other hand we have to be realistic- NZF is a small gossipy parish. Occasionally someone is guna come into town to sell us a monorail!
Had to be based in Auckland? Because it’s the site of some portacoms and (almost?) 0 current starting All Whites? Then they can reuse Huddo’s pinboards, so they save a bit of money? It just makes you think more and more the only professional football in NZ is in Wellington and even then I’m withholding judgment until we win the league this year!
On the other hand we have to be realistic- NZF is a small gossipy parish. Occasionally someone is guna come into town to sell us a monorail!
You would think that would have been stated at the very beginning of the process as well "Must be based in Auckland". I still think Talay would have been a mistake especially considering we don't know if the A-League is going to break for every International window for next 3 years and they sure as hell were not going to interrupt their domestic competition to do anything to accommodate only the NZ national team. The NZFA would then be paying 250k to someone who is not available, which is ironically exactly the kind of thing they would normally do.
Can’t believe some people are angry at Herdman. This is just how job negotiations work, and if NZF want a high calibre coach they will almost certainly have multiple offers. Just sounds like naivety in the extreme.
I hope the has to be based in Auckland thing is a load of shark.
I understand some managers are getting their staff back in to the office for arbitrary reasons but holy fudge, you would expect if there was a job that can be done remotely it's the coach of a team that plays a couple of games a year and the majority of his players are overseas.
Can someone point me to where NZF said it was Herdman was the preferred candidate? I still can't find that piece of this puzzle. Also, does anyone know if Herdman has current family health issues? If he doesn't, then he may not be the guy Pragnell was referring to.
two side notes 1) Very glad Talay and Des didn't get it. For Talay, those days of dual roles are over. Both coaching positions are now vastly different from Ricki days. For Des, from what I know of him, I don't think he would be suit for a position which was responsible for more than just a team. There is a much wider responsibilities with the AW job and while Des has qualities, they are different from what is required here. 2) When will NZF bite the bullet and move the home of football in NZ to Wellington?!?
Can someone point me to where NZF said it was Herdman was the preferred candidate? I still can't find that piece of this puzzle. Also, does anyone know if Herdman has current family health issues? If he doesn't, then he may not be the guy Pragnell was referring to.
two side notes 1) Very glad Talay and Des didn't get it. For Talay, those days of dual roles are over. Both coaching positions are now vastly different from Ricki days. For Des, from what I know of him, I don't think he would be suit for a position which was responsible for more than just a team. There is a much wider responsibilities with the AW job and while Des has qualities, they are different from what is required here. 2) When will NZF bite the bullet and move the home of football in NZ to Wellington?!?
"There is a much wider responsibilities with the AW job " What do you mean? He has to make Pavlova?
Can’t believe some people are angry at Herdman. This is just how job negotiations work, and if NZF want a high calibre coach they will almost certainly have multiple offers. Just sounds like naivety in the extreme.
If I was hiring someone and the person got quite far down the hiring route to the point that they'd verbally agreed to terms then it turned out I was being played I would be furious.
The way it works is when you get the offer you go to your current employer and say "someone is interested in me, can you meet or exceed their offer" then you turn down the new position, you don't agree to terms. If what the media is saying is true, Herdman let it get too far with NZF and that's on him. You have to be honest in negotiations.
Can’t believe some people are angry at Herdman. This is just how job negotiations work, and if NZF want a high calibre coach they will almost certainly have multiple offers. Just sounds like naivety in the extreme.
If he's misled NZF about havily family health issues and it was all a ploy to get more bargaining power on the Canadian FA... then yes, we have the right to be angry with him.
This may provoke some on here but I genuinely do feel a bit sad for NZF...
While I wouldn't say the past 2-4 years have been great and there have been numerous blunders/issues (National League under 20 rule, international fixture issues, not renewing Hay, lack of ambition for Football Ferns) to me at least they built up a reputation of being somewhat misguided slightly bureaucratic professionals, and the good things largely equalled out the blunders (financially aiding Nix for ALW team, winning womens world cup bid, reforming the NZ National League, improvement on international fixtures). A big improvement on the awful old days of Andy Martin.
But I think unfortunately their reputation has come crashing back down to the bad old days with this one big flaming coaching fiasco. That may not reflect some of the good work they have done, but they have fudgeed a big thing up big time, and completely embarrassed themselves in the process.
I just hope from here on out that: 1. They are honest to the football public and admit that they fudgeed up 2. We get somebody of decent calibre in as the coach leaving us able to put this big shamble to their backs of our minds.
Can’t believe some people are angry at Herdman. This is just how job negotiations work, and if NZF want a high calibre coach they will almost certainly have multiple offers. Just sounds like naivety in the extreme.
If he's misled NZF about havily family health issues and it was all a ploy to get more bargaining power on the Canadian FA... then yes, we have the right to be angry with him.
whether or not he misled NZF, NZF should have offered the job, and when he started dragging the chain, set a deadline for him and moved on if he didn't meet it, and CERTAINLY never revealed what they did when they did. They should have just said there had been unexpected delays and no need to rush making this decision with years til WC qualifying starts, important to get it right and will take as long as it takes. Would have been frustrating but you couldn't have called it naiive, foolish or unprofessional, which NZF have been here.
This may provoke some on here but I genuinely do feel a bit sad for NZF...
While I wouldn't say the past 2-4 years have been great and there have been numerous blunders/issues (National League under 20 rule, international fixture issues, not renewing Hay, lack of ambition for Football Ferns) to me at least they built up a reputation of being somewhat misguided slightly bureaucratic professionals, and the good things largely equalled out the blunders (financially aiding Nix for ALW team, winning womens world cup bid, reforming the NZ National League, improvement on international fixtures). A big improvement on the awful old days of Andy Martin.
But I think unfortunately their reputation has come crashing back down to the bad old days with this one big flaming coaching fiasco. That may not reflect some of the good work they have done, but they have fudgeed a big thing up big time, and completely embarrassed themselves in the process.
I just hope from here on out that: 1. They are honest to the football public and admit that they fudgeed up 2. We get somebody of decent calibre in as the coach leaving us able to put this big shamble to their backs of our minds.
lthomas20
This may provoke some on here but I genuinely do feel a bit sad for NZF...
While I wouldn't say the past 2-4 years have been great and there have been numerous blunders/issues (National League under 20 rule, international fixture issues, not renewing Hay, lack of ambition for Football Ferns) to me at least they built up a reputation of being somewhat misguided slightly bureaucratic professionals, and the good things largely equalled out the blunders (financially aiding Nix for ALW team, winning womens world cup bid, reforming the NZ National League, improvement on international fixtures). A big improvement on the awful old days of Andy Martin.
But I think unfortunately their reputation has come crashing back down to the bad old days with this one big flaming coaching fiasco. That may not reflect some of the good work they have done, but they have fudgeed a big thing up big time, and completely embarrassed themselves in the process.
I just hope from here on out that: 1. They are honest to the football public and admit that they fudgeed up 2. We get somebody of decent calibre in as the coach leaving us able to put this big shamble to their backs of our minds.
lthomas20
This may provoke some on here but I genuinely do feel a bit sad for NZF...
While I wouldn't say the past 2-4 years have been great and there have been numerous blunders/issues (National League under 20 rule, international fixture issues, not renewing Hay, lack of ambition for Football Ferns) to me at least they built up a reputation of being somewhat misguided slightly bureaucratic professionals, and the good things largely equalled out the blunders (financially aiding Nix for ALW team, winning womens world cup bid, reforming the NZ National League, improvement on international fixtures). A big improvement on the awful old days of Andy Martin.
But I think unfortunately their reputation has come crashing back down to the bad old days with this one big flaming coaching fiasco. That may not reflect some of the good work they have done, but they have fudgeed a big thing up big time, and completely embarrassed themselves in the process.
I just hope from here on out that: 1. They are honest to the football public and admit that they fudgeed up 2. We get somebody of decent calibre in as the coach leaving us able to put this big shamble to their backs of our minds.
I noticed a typo so corrected it:
"the good things largely equalled out the blunders ( not renewing Hay, financially aiding Nix for ALW team, winning womens world cup bid, reforming the NZ National League, improvement on international fixtures)"
I hope the has to be based in Auckland thing is a load of shark.
I understand some managers are getting their staff back in to the office for arbitrary reasons but holy fudge, you would expect if there was a job that can be done remotely it's the coach of a team that plays a couple of games a year and the majority of his players are overseas.
But the McKinnion Report findings were you have to have to be nice to, plus lots of meetings with, the other NZF staff, even if you don't like/rate them.
The whole better at collaboration thing, means who have to be based alongside the other NZF staff - and to be fair the direct AWs/Olywhites staff (head gaffer, assistants, team manager, medicos, physios, video analysts, PT) probably meet up weekly if not daily.
Can someone point me to where NZF said it was Herdman was the preferred candidate? I still can't find that piece of this puzzle. Also, does anyone know if Herdman has current family health issues? If he doesn't, then he may not be the guy Pragnell was referring to.
two side notes 1) Very glad Talay and Des didn't get it. For Talay, those days of dual roles are over. Both coaching positions are now vastly different from Ricki days. For Des, from what I know of him, I don't think he would be suit for a position which was responsible for more than just a team. There is a much wider responsibilities with the AW job and while Des has qualities, they are different from what is required here. 2) When will NZF bite the bullet and move the home of football in NZ to Wellington?!?
Think of this scenario, played out in a different context:
"I've asked her to marry me. I'm certain she's saying yes, but we've had to delay the date to pick the engagement ring cos someone in her family got sick, but I'm sure we're getting engaged."
Red flags much?
I just don't get why you would say anything publicly until the preferred candidate was officially signed up...
A couple of things I wanted to add… when Herdman signed on to be Canada’s men’s manager in 2018, the CSA’s then-president said he was on board for the next two World Cup cycles. Current president Earl Cochrane confirmed that Herdman is under contract through the 2026 World Cup and I believe always has been. Now, I also believe it’s not that hard to get out of these contracts, but I don’t think it’s as clear as Herdman re-signing with Canada vs. signing with New Zealand.
Secondly, I do think there is some merit to the idea that Herdman was using the outside interest as a bargaining chip with the CSA, but I actually expect he did it demand more resources and more money to fund the youth teams (who have been incredibly under-served during the pandemic) and get some higher profile friendlies in the few windows we’ll have for them in the next three years. I don’t think this was necessarily about improving his own financial situation and was more about his own frustration with trying to be competitive at a home World Cup with a federation that is beyond cheap and pleading poverty at every turn.
I saw Scot Gemmill start for Scotland in a friendly at Easter Road against Canada. God I feel old.
I find it interesting the discussion about the manager having to be based in Auckland. U.S. Soccer is based in two historic homes beside each other in Chicago. It was always a requirement of the manager to live in Chicago. Jurgen Klinsmann has been the only exception that I know of, so far, because he wouldn’t take the job if he couldn’t live in Southern California. Frankly, it makes no sense to me, particularly since the team almost never plays in Chicago and they have winter. But I bring this up because the story (which may be apocryphal) is that the US needed a new U20 manager when Tab Ramos took an MLS job and no one wanted to move to Chicago in the middle of a pandemic. So despite a calamitous run with the Colorado Rapids, Anthony Hudson was willing to move to Chicago – which is how he got the U20 job. The U20 World Cup was cancelled, they hired a proper U20 manager for this current U20 cycle, but threw Hudson a bone in Gregg Berhalter’s backroom staff with the senior national team… and now he’s the interim manager as the US cleans house following the Berhalter-Reyna mess. May we all fail upwards as well as Anthony Hudson has.
And as I was posting a friend sent me an article in The Athletic (a NA-based online sports publication that is paywalled and is IMO the best source for North American sport) today…
The offer from New Zealand Football originally went through an intermediary unfamiliar to Canada Soccer…. The report from New Zealand that Herdman had agreed to terms with the federation took both Canada Soccer and those close to Herdman by surprise.
