Sin bins?

Would sin bins work?

This discussion may have been on here before but I was sent this article earlier, by a ref,  and wondered how others viewed the idea.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2023/nov/28/sin-bins-football-trial-ifab-referees-abuse

Not sure, giving yellow cards for abuse doesnt seem to have the desired effect. Players still do it, get yellowed and then get sent off. sin binning a player for abuse of officials punsihes the team and the fans more than it does the offending player for mine. The punishment needs to be two fold. If you are going to send the offending playuer off, then the manager should be able to replace them, then you fine the offending player so hard that it hurts. Not just a match fee or something small in the scheme of things but a months wages or higher. Then the players will seriously think about doing it again.
Article picked up by stuff.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/football/301017040/football-to-trial-rugbystyle-sinbins-with-introduction-of-orange-card

Do you think it'd work at our local levels?  🤔🤔

theprof

Not sure, giving yellow cards for abuse doesnt seem to have the desired effect. Players still do it, get yellowed and then get sent off. sin binning a player for abuse of officials punsihes the team and the fans more than it does the offending player for mine. The punishment needs to be two fold. If you are going to send the offending playuer off, then the manager should be able to replace them, then you fine the offending player so hard that it hurts. Not just a match fee or something small in the scheme of things but a months wages or higher. Then the players will seriously think about doing it again.
Article picked up by stuff.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/football/301017040/football-to-trial-rugbystyle-sinbins-with-introduction-of-orange-card

Then a possible alternative is the "black card" used in Gaelic football - the player is sent off but can be replaced. In that game it's used for cynical fouls but would it work for dissent?

dairyflat

Do you think it'd work at our local levels?  🤔🤔

I think it should totally be used at local levels, with a replacement available if a player is orange carded

Shark idea. This isn’t a tinpot sport like rugby. 

Didn't NRFL have sin bins a couple of years back?

Half the referees didn't use it which just caused inconsistencies and even more pressure with those who did.

The main issue with all these ideas is how they're enforced. It's often referees letting each other down.

Given that, I think there's two options:
1. Referees get together and ruthless enforce the rule which leads to a couple of weeks of farcical football with multiple sinbins until players learn or
2. The competitions ruthlessly enforce punishment after the game - which again leads to a few weeks of farcical football with players on suspension until players learn

The enforcement of any new rule is always going to be the issue. Everytime FIFA brings a new directive to the game to protect players or remove abuse or diving etc it all comes down to how the referee interprets the ruling on the day - which leads to inconsitencies and the same angst and pain for the fans that we have now just moved to a new subject. The easiest and fairest is to take the referees out of the decision making process. Do what the NRL do, if the incident doesnt meet the red card threshhold then yellow card and put on report. Then an impartial review committee looks at the incident and assigns the appropriate penalty. Whether that's financial or a number of missed games doesnt really matter. It punsihes the player for wahtever they said or did, it doesnt ruin the game day experience for the paying fans, and hopefully you get consitent punishments handed out for simlar offences.

20 Legend

Didn't NRFL have sin bins a couple of years back?

Half the referees didn't use it which just caused inconsistencies and even more pressure with those who did.

The main issue with all these ideas is how they're enforced. It's often referees letting each other down.

Given that, I think there's two options:
1. Referees get together and ruthless enforce the rule which leads to a couple of weeks of farcical football with multiple sinbins until players learn or
2. The orgs ruthless enforce punishment after the game - which again leads to a few weeks of farcical football with players on suspension until players learn

I was a fan of the sin bin - but like 20 said above the referees didn't use it - so it became a bit of a joke.
That said a yellow for dissent is a good punishment if it's used consistently - but it's not - one week a player says X and it's ignored and next week player says X and it's a red card and the minimum ban for someone who is red carded for dissent is 4 weeks.  

Clamp down consistently on dissent - first couple of weeks everyone will cop yellows - by the end of the season it will have become the norm that if you say something you get a yellow.

My issue here is the big abuse gets punished (not always but often) but the small abuse is often left to fester and that pisses off both the players and the referee if it's not dealt with

theprof

dairyflat

Do you think it'd work at our local levels?  🤔🤔

I think it should totally be used at local levels, with a replacement available if a player is orange carded

Gee in Masters Football there could be several off at one time given the abuse that is heaped out to the Refs in those grades. 

I mean maybe it won't but if something like this did come in wouldn't it make the whole second yellow card thing a bit more confusing? Because you know 2 yellows=red

2 yellows could still equal a red (send off) - anyone who is silly enough to be put on report or yellow/orange carded and the commit another questionable offence should still be sanctioned accordingly   IMO

The person who sent me the link in the OP was thinking
 of Masters as well. He told me that he was a 'little frustrated ' after reffing a couple of Masters matches last season..

😉😉

theprof

dairyflat

Do you think it'd work at our local levels?  🤔🤔

I think it should totally be used at local levels, with a replacement available if a player is orange carded

Great idea; when I’ve used all my subs I’ll get someone to challenge every decision until I can make an extra change. 
Nope, dumb idea. Yellow card them, the second yellow them. If that’s not punishing the player I don’t know what is. I don’t care if it punishes the team too. It’s a culture thing. If a coach doesn’t want to deal with it. And his player mates can’t tell him to pull his head in then that can all suffer as accessories. 

It’s not hard to keep your mouth shut and accept a referee decision.

whatever

theprof

dairyflat

Do you think it'd work at our local levels?  🤔🤔

I think it should totally be used at local levels, with a replacement available if a player is orange carded

Gee in Masters Football there could be several off at one time given the abuse that is heaped out to the Refs in those grades. 

Good. Maybe the grumpy gits will retire. 
They whine when a ref isn’t provided, then they whine at the ref when one is.
Don’t need that sort around football.

ClubOranje

whatever

theprof

dairyflat

Do you think it'd work at our local levels?  🤔🤔

I think it should totally be used at local levels, with a replacement available if a player is orange carded

Gee in Masters Football there could be several off at one time given the abuse that is heaped out to the Refs in those grades. 

Good. Maybe the grumpy gits will retire. 
They whine when a ref isn’t provided, then they whine at the ref when one is.
Don’t need that sort around football.

I have reffed a number of masters games over the years, none of them were fun. Even got called a cheat in one where I'd blown penalties for handball for both teams and declined pens for both teams as well - if I recall a certain commentator was the capt of the player calling me a cheat. When I indicated I was gonna send the offending player off for calling me a cheat it was questioned by said captain who remarked I couldnt do that. When in actual fact I could. Consistent abuse for the rest of the game. Not surprisingly an apology was issued straight after the game, to which I repsonded "you should have thought about that 15 minutes ago". Never reffed a masters game again.

theprof

ClubOranje

whatever

theprof

dairyflat

Do you think it'd work at our local levels?  🤔🤔

I think it should totally be used at local levels, with a replacement available if a player is orange carded

Gee in Masters Football there could be several off at one time given the abuse that is heaped out to the Refs in those grades. 

Good. Maybe the grumpy gits will retire. 
They whine when a ref isn’t provided, then they whine at the ref when one is.
Don’t need that sort around football.

I have reffed a number of masters games over the years, none of them were fun. Even got called a cheat in one where I'd blown penalties for handball for both teams and declined pens for both teams as well - if I recall a certain commentator was the capt of the player calling me a cheat. When I indicated I was gonna send the offending player off for calling me a cheat it was questioned by said captain who remarked I couldnt do that. When in actual fact I could. Consistent abuse for the rest of the game. Not surprisingly an apology was issued straight after the game, to which I repsonded "you should have thought about that 15 minutes ago". Never reffed a masters game again.

Most Clubs have a code of conduct, but I have yet to hear of any club that has acted upon transgressions. There was one game between two teams from one club which ended with a player punching a fellow club member, but this was condoned by the committee of the club concerned as they just spoke to the player. 

whatever

theprof

ClubOranje

whatever

theprof

dairyflat

Do you think it'd work at our local levels?  🤔🤔

I think it should totally be used at local levels, with a replacement available if a player is orange carded

Gee in Masters Football there could be several off at one time given the abuse that is heaped out to the Refs in those grades. 

Good. Maybe the grumpy gits will retire. 
They whine when a ref isn’t provided, then they whine at the ref when one is.
Don’t need that sort around football.

I have reffed a number of masters games over the years, none of them were fun. Even got called a cheat in one where I'd blown penalties for handball for both teams and declined pens for both teams as well - if I recall a certain commentator was the capt of the player calling me a cheat. When I indicated I was gonna send the offending player off for calling me a cheat it was questioned by said captain who remarked I couldnt do that. When in actual fact I could. Consistent abuse for the rest of the game. Not surprisingly an apology was issued straight after the game, to which I repsonded "you should have thought about that 15 minutes ago". Never reffed a masters game again.

Most Clubs have a code of conduct, but I have yet to hear of any club that has acted upon transgressions. There was one game between two teams from one club which ended with a player punching a fellow club member, but this was condoned by the committee of the club concerned as they just spoke to the player. 

yeah, you have to be able to get in contact with the club to get any action, most clubs have poor to no responses to email/social media contact. Especially if it's regarding player conduct. I'll exclude Miramar from that list, there response time to questions about player conduct in social grades has been brilliant.

theprof

Not sure, giving yellow cards for abuse doesnt seem to have the desired effect. Players still do it, get yellowed and then get sent off. sin binning a player for abuse of officials punsihes the team and the fans more than it does the offending player for mine. The punishment needs to be two fold. If you are going to send the offending playuer off, then the manager should be able to replace them, then you fine the offending player so hard that it hurts. Not just a match fee or something small in the scheme of things but a months wages or higher. Then the players will seriously think about doing it again.
Article picked up by stuff.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/football/301017040/football-to-trial-rugbystyle-sinbins-with-introduction-of-orange-card

The team should be punished if a player commits an act of dissent. They're punished if a player commits a foul so why should verbals be any different? Does sending a player off for two-footing someone punish the team and fans more than the player? Because that is the same effective outcome as a sin-bin (playing with 10 men). I can see why some might perceive dissent to be different from a physical foul, but they are covered under the same section in the laws of the game. I imagine most people would consider a red for something like racial abuse to be justified, so it's just degrees of seriousness, which is why the sin bin makes sense to some.

They use that rule in Hawke’s Bay.

Yellow card, 10 minutes sin bin for dissent.

I really like it (despite my team usually being the culprits 🤦‍♂️). If one of our players makes that sort of remark towards a ref then it’s a team issue and the team should suffer the consequences. If we don’t like playing a player down, then we need to change players attitude towards the referee. 

As mentioned above though, there is a lack of consistency with refs using it.

I was looking through the FA Cup preliminary round scores and came across a game that had to be replayed die to refereeing error.  Sinbins were used in league games for the teams concerned (level 9, 10 in the English pyramid), but were not in the FA Cup rules.  So because a player was sinbinned in the FA Cup game for the last 3.5 minutes, when they should not have been, the game had to be replayed.