Ben Waine (Plymouth Argyle | England)

Big game.
Plymouth (19th, 44 pts, 2 pts above the drop zone) host QPR (17th, 46 pts).
5 rounds left in The Championship.

https://us.soccerway.com/matches/2024/04/09/england/championship/plymouth-argyle-fc/queens-park-rangers-fc/4089170/

Waine on at 66 mins (0-0) for Hardie in a 1-1 draw. A good 25-30 mins, so a show of faith from Pilgrims gaffer in a big game. Though as someone posted above sounds like Hardie is showing some tiredness as season ends.

Plymouth (20th, 45 pts) equalised late at 85 mins, courtesy of an oggie.

They go 2 pts clear of the drop zone. 4 games left with Leicester City (H), Stoke City (A),  Millwall (A) & Hull City (H). Leicester (1st) obviously gunning for the title/automatic promotion, Stoke (19th) & Millwall (17th) likewise trying to avoid the drop. Only Hull (10th) with likely nothing to play for.

https://us.soccerway.com/matches/2024/04/09/england/championship/plymouth-argyle-fc/queens-park-rangers-fc/4089170/

Pilgrims season likely to go down to the wire re avoiding relegation.

Anyone see how he played? I’ve got this frustrating Championship coverage of a few games a round which gets Argyle now and then.

martinb

Anyone see how he played? I’ve got this frustrating Championship coverage of a few games a round which gets Argyle now and then.

Not mentioned in either match report I read, apart from being subbed on.
Still a good sign that he got 25-30 mins of playing time, when every game now until end of the season is going to be tense.
https://www.pafc.co.uk/news/report-argyle-1-qpr-1

coochiee

martinb

Anyone see how he played? I’ve got this frustrating Championship coverage of a few games a round which gets Argyle now and then.

Not mentioned in either match report I read, apart from being subbed on.
Still a good sign that he got 25-30 mins of playing time, when every game now until end of the season is going to be tense.
https://www.pafc.co.uk/news/report-argyle-1-qpr-1

 Fotmob has him recording just 3 touches in the 30 minutes (including added time) he was on. No passes nor shots attempted; just 1 lost ground duel, 1 lost aerial duel and 1 foul given away.

Plymouth (20th, 45 pts - 2 above the drop zone) host Leicester City (1st, 88 pts). At least Waine won't have to contend with Socceroos giant Harry Souttar (out injured)

Leicester in a very tight battle to either win The Championship and get automatically promoted (top 2). Ipswich Town (2nd & 88 pts) plus Leeds United (3rd, 87pts) both right in the mix.

https://us.soccerway.com/matches/2024/04/12/england/championship/plymouth-argyle-fc/leicester-city-fc/4089223/

Plymouth get the win. 

Commentator calls his card ‘a really poor decision’ as he’d won the loose ball and caught the player who wasn’t even challenging for it a little after. 

Didn’t do much or have much to do. Won the ball twice and set two counters away. Tried to hold the ball up with varying success. Was returned a pass once that I saw, but it was a little too far in front of him. 

He is getting praised on the Pasoti website for relieving the pressure on what was a backs to the wall performance by the Argyle defence. 
Quote on Pasoti, Take a bow Ben Waine. What a brilliant pressing forward game he had. Made a real difference. Geting scores of 8 from other supporters.

So Plymouth with the huglely important, upset 1-0 win. They to 16th, and 48 pts. 
5 pts clear of the drop zone with 3 games left, but yes all the teams below them with a game in hand.

Waine on for Hardie at 71 mins (1-0) and yeah sounds like he filled is role perfectly of hard pressing to protect than goal lead. Though like Nix fans today, probably everything and all comments post match for Pilgrims fans was smelling roses! Bundu (only 6 starts this season) did start ahead of Waineo.

Big blow for Leicester, and both Leeds & Ipswich are playing home games, tonight with the chance to overtake the Foxes.

HE’S JUST BEEN GIVEN A YELLOW CARD FOR WINNING THE BALL…😳😡

Shocking refereeing again🙄 pic.twitter.com/hKzynGSG8C

— The 44 ⚽️ (@The_Forty_Four) April 12, 2024

Waineo leaving his mark. 
But probably can't complain about that being a yellow to be fair.

He gets a Red in the A-League for that.

RR

He gets a Red in the A-League for that.

Who knows, dead cert penalty for hand ball in the CCM game today against CCM which VAR ruled as not a hand ball. WTF?

Right shark call.

Two teams just above the drop zone. Plymouth (18th, 48 pts) travel to Stoke City (20th, 47 pts). Drop zone starts at 44 pts (Huddersfield). Sort of game where Pilgrims will take the draw with 3 games left.

https://us.soccerway.com/matches/2024/04/20/england/championship/stoke-city-fc/plymouth-argyle-fc/4089274/

coochiee

Two teams just above the drop zone. Plymouth (18th, 48 pts) travel to Stoke City (20th, 47 pts). Drop zone starts at 44 pts (Huddersfield). Sort of game where Pilgrims will take the draw with 3 games left.

https://us.soccerway.com/matches/2024/04/20/england/championship/stoke-city-fc/plymouth-argyle-fc/4089274/

Big game for us as we're playing the manager who created the mess we've been in since January. Would make the Green Army super happy if Stoke went down.

Waine on the pine

coochiee

Waine on the pine

8+ minutes in a spanking 3-0 loss.

Pilgrims sit 20th, 4 pts above the drop zone with 2 games left.
Millwall (A) and then Hull City (H)

https://us.soccerway.com/matches/2024/04/20/england/championship/stoke-city-fc/plymouth-argyle-fc/4089274/

Started today in a must win game at the dirtiest team in British football, Millwall. Subbed after 70mins. Game lost after he went off. Everything riding on the last game of the season.

All 3 of my teams waiting with interest on results from other teams. Not a great feeling. C'mon Nix, Argyle and Leeds.

Unfortunately I think Plymouth is your best best

Marto

Started today in a must win game at the dirtiest team in British football, Millwall. Subbed after 70mins. Game lost after he went off. Everything riding on the last game of the season.

All 3 of my teams waiting with interest on results from other teams. Not a great feeling. C'mon Nix, Argyle and Leeds.

Nice to see Waine trusted with a start in such a big game. Millwall (16th) only 5 places above Plymouth (21s, pts) so not like the Pilgrims would have gone to The Den, no chance. And yipe was 0-0 when he came off, and Hardie went on.

Maybe Hardie is carrying a niggle after carrying a big load often as the sole striker much of this season.

So Plymouth host Hull City (7th) in their final game. Unfortunately Hull is still a chance of the promotion playoffs so will be plenty motivated.

Either Plymouth (21st, 48 pts, -12 GD), or Birmingham City (22nd, 47 pts, -16 GD) will go down. Birmingham with an equally tough final game hosting Norwich City (5th & also in the playoff hunt)

Huddersfield Town (23rd, 45 pts, -27 GD) can finish equal with Pilgrims but their GD is too poor to save them. Rotherham United (last/24th, 24 pts) long ago confirmed as relegated.

Seems from the online highlights Argyle kept in it by an amazing performance by their keeper. 

No Waine contributions really recorded so hard tell what he’s done well or otherwise. 

Would have been nice for him to have sneaked one after Woodsy’s couple of misses today. 

martinb

Seems from the online highlights Argyle kept in it by an amazing performance by their keeper. 

No Waine contributions really recorded so hard tell what he’s done well or otherwise. 

Would have been nice for him to have sneaked one after Woodsy’s couple of misses today. 

Argyle and the Nix have a great keeper each. I'm sure they'll both be in the same league (Championship) before long.

From this week's Flying Kiwis. Has to be a key work on for Waine this off season, how to somehow get more involved in games.

Until then I can see Bazeley often starting Mata ahead of Waineo, if Wood is absent. Mata just offers himself more often as an outlet, even he rarely scores outside of LOI stuff. Again Waine playing in League One next either for a relegated Plymouth or out on loan is probably best for his development & confidencer.


Ben Waine started that Millwall game. Given the go in place of a fatigued Ryan Hardie (who has gone ten games without a goal), one of three changes to the starting team as they try to keep things fresh down the stretch. This was Waine’s first Championship start since February... but unfortunately it kinda went the way that most of his starts have gone where he doesn’t do very much.

No lack of effort but a definite lack of output as he managed only 14 touches in 70 minutes, completing four passes and having two shots, both off target. Probably didn’t help that his team were on the wrong side of the possession meter so were lumping aerials towards Waine by himself up against two massive central defenders as if that was ever going to work.

I mean if a coach trusts you to start against Milwall I don’t think anyone else should be questioning how tough you are. 

I think I made my case why I think Waine is better than Mata currently in the last AWs thread (which boils down to playing and scoring at a higher level, though he’s due a goal of late) and I haven’t seen much analysis of the stat of offering himself as an outlet so I won’t repeat all that. 

Certainly it’s a choice a coach can make, but I can’t see how it’s the obvious one, especially with Mata dropping back down the level and Kosta actually having plenty of tricks for a smaller forward as well. 

You could debate this until the cows come home. Waineo got his chance against Millwall it sounds as much, from Hardie being exhausted as anything.

To me it's often a horses for courses choice as well. Similar to Arnie often picking Mitch Duke as he striker, when other options have better scoring records, and play at higher levels. Though Duke's promoted team are in J1 this season.

If it's a quality high pressing team, then we will often need that long ball outlet forward to relieve pressure. If Wood is absent, the next best at that is Mata. That's a team like Sweden, a 4-1 loss with Waine upfront. Now no way am I saying that the result would have been any better with Mata there, but eventually late in the first half the Swedes preyed on a few mistakes from the AWs playing out, and bang, bang & bang it's 3-0 down at HT. 3 goals conceded in 6 mins. The endeavour to play out whilst admirable got too predictable.

Waine has the highest upside for sure, but he needs to get more involved. He was pretty anonymous for the AWs in March as well. He'll know all this, and he'll be working on it for sure in the off season. And yeah if he's being matched up all alone against 2 big CBs, that ain't the best use of him. He will have learnt a lot this season, but yeah a lot to work on in the off season.

Both him & Mata being in League One next season would be a positive I think.

Again you’re saying fairly much what you said about him during the AWs window. 

The arguments made then- he’s scoring because he’s part of a better team and now he’s up against 2 Championship CBs in a one sided game where the keeper was the MVP so we shouldn’t select him - are fairly funny. 

He’s only getting a chance to play 70 minutes in the Championship because he was signed by a team high up the table in League One and is the second choice striker for a Championship team. 

Seeing this is getting my goat again, here’s a new argument, perhaps slightly less facile: 

Transfermarkt valuations
Andy Lyons:        1 million euro
Ben Waine:           600K euro
Kosta:                   450K euro
Max Mata:            325K euro
Ben Mata:             300K euro
Hamish Watson:  300K euro
Daniel Udoh:        275K euro
Graham Burke:     275K euro 
Myer Bevan:        250K euro
Nando Pijnaker:   175K euro
Luke Supyk/Gabriel Sloane-Rodrigues :          75K
Aaron Greene:     50K

Especially considering Lachy Wales and others Kosta’s value either hasn’t updated his after his recent season or that age is rated much more important a downside than pedigree and form is an upside by the website. And pooooossibly the NZFC is slightly overrated. Though Kaltak has come from there to be a sensation at the top team in the A League, so maybe it isn’t. 

facile
/ˈfasʌɪl/

adjective

You’re right Coochie- if sometimes bossing the 35th ranked league in Europe is good enough for you and Bazeley, well it’s good enough for me!

And you’re ready to drop Whittaker too I guess on the basis of the same game: 

Morgan Whittaker 5 - Another quiet game for Argyle's top scorer, whose recent dip in form has come at a bad time. Twice during this match he looked to have been played through on goal but on both occasions he was tackled by Plymouth-born Ryan Leonard before he could get a shot in.

Ben Waine 5 - No lack of effort from the New Zealand international but he made little impression against Millwall centre-backs Japhet Tanganga and Jake Cooper. Fired over the bar with one first half shot but that was about it in terms of scoring chances for Waine.

https://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/sport/football/plymouth-argyle-player-ratings-late-9251465

It feels a bit like you are trying to gazump Waineo tbh. Based on a game against Sweden, which is a very highly ranked European team and this latest game against Milwall. 

Mata is a developing striker, while Ben is further along in terms of career path. He’s scored more goals at a higher level. That’s the only point I’m making with the tongue-in-cheek transfermarkt ratings, as I wasn’t allowed to make it with league ratings and goals per minute.

And sure Mata has looked very good for the AWs and you’d imagine he’s got a breakout season coming very soon. But it’s also salutary to remember that the LoI isn’t a highly ranked league and a player like Hamish Watson has scored consistently in the NZFC and played for the Phoenix. And those that have scored goals in the LoI aren’t all banging on the door of higher leagues.

I’ve watched Ben hold up and distribute the ball in the Championship this season. I’ve seen him control and turn players. I’ve seen him win headers in a crowded box. Without Libby’s crossing. But like Sweden’s CB pair were playing top flight, many in the Championship are approaching PL standard. That’s a tough assignment even for Woodsy if the rest of the team is camped in their own box and you’re up against 2 CBs. Even Haaland has his days.

Your theory makes some sense, but there is little credible evidence that Mata is significantly better than Waine, despite dropping in buzzwords like ‘offering more as an outlet’ and so on. 

Anyway, a full season for each in League One with plenty of regular football probably wouldn’t hurt. But as we’ve seen with the Woodsman, having a couple of teammates that like you and can get you the ball in a bit of space makes a world of difference to your output. 

Give me Waine over Mata any day

Yipe I agree Waine (22) is a better footballer than Mata (23), and likely has greater upside. But selecting a football team is about more than that. It's picking the best mix of players that suit the way you want to play, and also matching up with how your opponent plays.

Each international window, national team coaches are mulling all that over, and sometimes picking players at a lower club level or with poorer stats, ahead of other players at a higher club level with better stats. It ain't baseball. Arnie often plumping for Duke is just one example, but there will be plenty of others out there. Bazeley ain't Robinson Crusoe.

Baze & co study Egypt and decide they like to press high so start with Mata. Waine comes on for 25 mins in this game, and barely touches the ball. Then they watch Croatia (with about 70% of the ball) dominate against a deep lying, defensive strong Tunisia, and change it up for the Tunisian game with Barba up front. AWs should have won that game (Singh missed pen). Waine gets 10 mins off this bench that time, and again no real impact.

Waineo is still young at 22. He can improve for sure. But he really needs to work on having more touches. Somehow getting more involved. That's where in my view Mata is better. Maybe it's just as simple as he's bigger guy, but he definitely has more game involvement. Can lay off to team mates more, receiving an aerial pass forward. Mata had a good 30 min cameo off the pine against Ireland in Dublin. Some very decent half chances. But yeah his finishing lets him down alot.

Hopefully he gets a proper off season with Shrewsbury, so then we can make a fairer assessment of whether he can cut it in L1. Have my doubts, but it's unfair to judge unless he gets a proper pre season in.

If they are both in League One next season, then that makes for a pretty open & fairish player comparison. But certainly at the moment neither are setting the world on fire.

Waine
2023/2024 | Plymouth Argyle | CHA | 895 mins & 2 goals
2022/2023 | Plymouth Argyle | LEO | 240 mins & 1 goal (no pre season)

Mata
2023/2024 | Shrewsbury Town | LEO | 1,038 mins & 1 goal (no pre season)

Waine’s also got cup competition involvement which bumps his numbers a bit. 

(3 goals in 168 minutes in the EFL or Carabao Cup, and an assist in the Championship too, so we can bump him up to 6 goal involvements for Plymouth in 1,062. Which is a useful contribution every 177 minutes. 

Nothing recently so it’s gone up a bit from the AWs outing. Oh and he’s lost one to an oggy! At that point I was calculating 7 involvements in 945 minutes, which was even healthier. )

I get the feeling they’re both going to get good opportunities in the next couple of years and we’ll find out a lot more about their mental toughness and ability. 

Hopefully for the All Whites they both step up from where they are now, in terms of output. Mata has been getting in all the right positions for the AWs and making good runs so you’d think that’ll click soon. If you’re getting in goal scoring positions then the goals will come. 

It’s not really a worry to be in the right place and just missing or hitting the post yet, imo. 

Neither seem to be quite the kind of instinctive talent that Wood or Kosta is, they’re able to do a bit of both- some speed and trickery, but still a bit of strength in the air, if nowhere near the natural size and presence of Woodsy. 

And frankly in a couple of years, unless Supyk and Bevan become amazing, we’re guna need them both to be ready to take full starting responsibility the way injuries happen.